New Players Catch Up

[Pantalaimon]

Jesus christ stop being an edge lord with trying to belittle me in every fucking post you make. I'm not offeneded, I'm not complaining, I'm not triggered.

Everything I have posted, is about this topic...

Again ccg, you either sink time in or money to get where you want to go. Don't think new people deserve easy mode because they were late for the bus.

Thank you for revealing how much you actually are influenced by the special snowflake syndrome, despite having claimed that there was no special snowflake anything going on! "New players shouldn't be able to enjoy the same things as vets..."? "Don't think new people deserve easy mode..."? Man, you need to get over yourself. You are not entitled to anything simply because you have been playing longer than a new(er) player. At least with WoW you could try to argue for special snowflakes due to the achievement system existing & cosmetic rewards being removed, but in HS there is none of that (except for card backs) so you having some vendetta over new players getting bonus sign up rewards, or catch-ups, or however you want to phrase it is exceptionally baffling.

As for you claim of belittling you I have not done any of that. I have not thrown any names or labels in your direction, nor have I taken efforts to start a flame war against you. Meanwhile, you on the other hand have resorted to swearing at me because you choose not to take a deep breath before replying to my posts, or just ignoring them if you don't want to continue the discussion with me.

[Twoddle]

Problem is as I said above is the flawed CCG's genre, you can't solve the problem from within the system itself it doesn't take Einstein to work that out. When you sign up to one you take all the shit that goes with it that's why if and when Hearthstone apparently rotates out next month after the Lifecoach debacle on reddit I for one won't be moving to Gwent, Shadowverse, Faera online or any other free-to-play-pay-to-win-skip-the-grind bullshit, I'm done.

The only way to solve the problem is to move the entire game out of CCG status and start selling expansions as a whole for a reasonable price. Of course that will never happen because of the bulging dollar signs in game makers' eyes.

[Ravex]

Thank you for revealing how much you actually are influenced by the special snowflake syndrome, despite having claimed that there was no special snowflake anything going on! "New players shouldn't be able to enjoy the same things as vets..."? "Don't think new people deserve easy mode..."? Man, you need to get over yourself. You are not entitled to anything simply because you have been playing longer than a new(er) player. At least with WoW you could try to argue for special snowflakes due to the achievement system existing & cosmetic rewards being removed, but in HS there is none of that (except for card backs) so you having some vendetta over new players getting bonus sign up rewards, or catch-ups, or however you want to phrase it is exceptionally baffling.

As for you claim of belittling you I have not done any of that. I have not thrown any names or labels in your direction, nor have I taken efforts to start a flame war against you. Meanwhile, you on the other hand have resorted to swearing at me because you choose not to take a deep breath before replying to my posts, or just ignoring them if you don't want to continue the discussion with me.

It's a CCG, the idea is to collect things over time or invest, same thing in every other game like it.

Not wanting people to skip time/money other people have sunken things into is not being a snowflake. Wanting a specific system added to a game that doesn't have it just to give free stuff to people IS being a snowflake. See "you". I have nothing to get over, I accept the genre like it is, and you yelling from the mountain tops that there must be a better way wont change how these games work.

It's baffling for people with their eyes closed, look at Twoddle, I never see eye to eye with that guy but he actually gets it unlike you.

I put a swear in my post and all of a sudden I'm a barbarian. You throw words into my mouth that I am nowhere even close to saying and you are "civilized".

"Resorted" to swearing, that's hilarious.

[Pantalaimon]

It's a CCG, the idea is to collect things over time or invest, same thing in every other game like it.

Not wanting people to skip time/money other people have sunken things into is not being a snowflake. Wanting a specific system added to a game that doesn't have it just to give free stuff to people IS being a snowflake. See "you". I have nothing to get over, I accept the genre like it is, and you yelling from the mountain tops that there must be a better way wont change how these games work.

It's baffling for people with their eyes closed, look at Twoddle, I never see eye to eye with that guy but he actually gets it unlike you.

I put a swear in my post and all of a sudden I'm a barbarian. You throw words into my mouth that I am nowhere even close to saying and you are "civilized".

"Resorted" to swearing, that's hilarious.

The whole point isn't just to mindlessly collect. You're skipping the obvious factor that you play games with those cards. Improving the actual gameplay should always trump the collecting aspect in this genre since most of the content is, you guessed it, centered on playing games more than collecting.

As I mentioned before, Blizzard doesn't care if people like you don't want newer players to skip grinds. If you can't tell the game is slowly introducing ways to do this for newer players to make it friendlier for them. In the end you are the one on the losing end of this argument, so long as Blizzard keeps introducing more catch-up mechanics. Arguing with me won't change that little fact.

You say I throw words in your mouth then you imply that I called you a barbarian for swearing, ironic. Hey, you were the one saying I was "belittling" your feelings not that long ago.

[BenBos]

Problem is as I said above is the flawed CCG's genre, you can't solve the problem from within the system itself it doesn't take Einstein to work that out. When you sign up to one you take all the shit that goes with it that's why if and when Hearthstone apparently rotates out next month after the Lifecoach debacle on reddit I for one won't be moving to Gwent, Shadowverse, Faera online or any other free-to-play-pay-to-win-skip-the-grind bullshit, I'm done.

The only way to solve the problem is to move the entire game out of CCG status and start selling expansions as a whole for a reasonable price. Of course that will never happen because of the bulging dollar signs in game makers' eyes.

The above is the ONLY good post in this thread.

The CCG genre stinks and it simply is a money printing mechanic where you lure people in and then try to bind them to you for as long as possible.

Smart people jump in at launch and get out after ~ 1 year. After 3 years the game is only making money from the "whales" type of players, no newbees left and after 4 years it is dead in the water for ANYONE no longer willing to invest.


This mechanism should even be forbidden as it is comparable to money spending on pyramid systems or Slot machines.

What is better ???

The better games these days use a LCG mechanic: Living Card Game, where you know exactly WHAT is bought into one expansion pack. It still is a money driven game but the insane random CCG concept is less hard on the player's money and when it is solo able you can stop even buying expansions and still have fun on your own.

I know I will be able to play the Lord of the Ring card game in solo mode in 20 years without the need to spend a zillion expansions. This will be IMPOSSIBLE with a hard driven CCG on the internet.

Hearthstone is simply a money printing machine and you will have ZERO fun out of it when playing in a few years with old cards... The fact these cards are just .... pixels, makes it even worse...

-----

To those searching for paper alternatives to Hearthstone, I can recommend Lord of the Ring LCG, the Star Wars LCG or the Arkham Horror LCG. All 3 have a great solo mode (SW through optional rules on Boardgamegeek) AND you can stop buying expansions whenever you want and still have tons of fun.

In fact these LCG's have far better mechanics than the complete random play crap of Hearthstone these days.

[Ravex]

The whole point isn't just to mindlessly collect. You're skipping the obvious factor that you play games with those cards. Improving the actual gameplay should always trump the collecting aspect in this genre since most of the content is, you guessed it, centered on playing games more than collecting.

As I mentioned before, Blizzard doesn't care if people like you don't want newer players to skip grinds. If you can't tell the game is slowly introducing ways to do this for newer players to make it friendlier for them. In the end you are the one on the losing end of this argument, so long as Blizzard keeps introducing more catch-up mechanics. Arguing with me won't change that little fact.

You say I throw words in your mouth then you imply that I called you a barbarian for swearing, ironic. Hey, you were the one saying I was "belittling" your feelings not that long ago.

It was stupid the first 20 times you said this stuff and it was refuted.

I'm done with you now.

Bye.

[Pantalaimon]

It was stupid the first 20 times you said this stuff and it was refuted.

I'm done with you now.

Bye.

Refuted except for the fact that Blizzard is gradually embracing making it easier for new players to start the game (free legendaries/cards ala C'Thun, cheap micro transactions for $5 for easy legendaries, and probably other catch-ups in the future that may irk you).

But yeah I agree, you're done.

[Deleted]

Refuted except for the fact that Blizzard is gradually embracing making it easier for new players to start the game (free legendaries/cards ala C'Thun, cheap micro transactions for $5 for easy legendaries, and probably other catch-ups in the future that may irk you).

The sad irony is that no matter what Blizzard does, people will likely still keep calling HS the "the worst new player experience" and keep demanding more. Hearthstone will probably never shake that stigma, thanks to the internet, and all the while Blizzard is going to keep teaching players that they are entitled to free stuff.

[Pantalaimon]

The sad irony is that no matter what Blizzard does, people will likely still keep calling HS the "the worst new player experience" and keep demanding more. Hearthstone will probably never shake that stigma, thanks to the internet, and all the while Blizzard is going to keep teaching players that they are entitled to free stuff.

Yeah sadly you are right, the catch-up mechanics can lead to this entitlement depending on how they go about it, which has its own negative side effects. I guess the solution is to much a good enough balance between helping out new players and not leaving them too far in the dust, but also not giving stuff away without having to play the game much. What those details should be for that balance I can't say for sure.

[Deleted]

Yeah sadly you are right, the catch-up mechanics can lead to this entitlement depending on how they go about it, which has its own negative side effects. I guess the solution is to much a good enough balance between helping out new players and not leaving them too far in the dust, but also not giving stuff away without having to play the game much. What those details should be for that balance I can't say for sure.

I would suggest that the first step is to stop trying to call it a catch-up mechanic, because that's just not going to happen; someone who starts today will not catch up a vet since vanilla, no matter what Blizzard throws their way. It should be called getting started mechanic, because that is what it boils down to. This at least would point the conversation towards the right direction, which is the consideration of what is rational and above all else actually helpful to a new player. You can see Blizzard doing this by trying out different things, like e.g. when they gave everyone a free C'thun, which was a huge help for people to get their leg into the expansion.

[Gorgodeus]

Problem is as I said above is the flawed CCG's genre, you can't solve the problem from within the system itself it doesn't take Einstein to work that out. When you sign up to one you take all the shit that goes with it that's why if and when Hearthstone apparently rotates out next month after the Lifecoach debacle on reddit I for one won't be moving to Gwent, Shadowverse, Faera online or any other free-to-play-pay-to-win-skip-the-grind bullshit, I'm done.

The only way to solve the problem is to move the entire game out of CCG status and start selling expansions as a whole for a reasonable price. Of course that will never happen because of the bulging dollar signs in game makers' eyes.

The genre has been going for 23 years now. I would not call that flawed, nor a problem. Of course, I could be a tad biased, being a former game store owner.

- - - Updated - - -

Refuted except for the fact that Blizzard is gradually embracing making it easier for new players to start the game (free legendaries/cards ala C'Thun, cheap micro transactions for $5 for easy legendaries, and probably other catch-ups in the future that may irk you).

But yeah I agree, you're done.

Lmao. This was done to hide the fact that it will now be even harder for new players. 3 full expansions per year instead of 2 xpacs and 1 Adventure. So no more getting a full set of cards for a set price anymore.

[Pantalaimon]

Lmao. This was done to hide the fact that it will now be even harder for new players. 3 full expansions per year instead of 2 xpacs and 1 Adventure. So no more getting a full set of cards for a set price anymore.

Well those offers were given to players long before they decided to do away with adventures in favor of an extra expansion so I don't think they were being used to hide the future 3 expansion per year announcement.

[Gorgodeus]

Well those offers were given to players long before they decided to do away with adventures in favor of an extra expansion so I don't think they were being used to hide the future 3 expansion per year announcement.

Yeah, because Blizzard never plans out anything ahead of time. I don't think you know how big business works.

[soulzek]

Hey look, more people wanting things for free. How new and exciting.

You realize this is actually how WoW's model functions, right? Not only do they give you easy free gear to catch up every content patch that is better than the previous patch, but they literally bundle in ALL prior expansions for free right into the base game cost every new expansion.

[Pantalaimon]

Yeah, because Blizzard never plans out anything ahead of time. I don't think you know how big business works.

I think you need to put down the tinfoil hat/pessimism for a moment. Blizzard is by no means a perfect company or business but they aren't some diabolical machine out to ruin players' lives either.

You also have to keep in mind that despite the extra expansion they are adding daily login rewards, which they could end up implementing in some other fashion down the line after the initial promotion. They could have just not offered any compensation & just given the 3rd expansion and the middle finger to players.

[Gorgodeus]

I think you need to put down the tinfoil hat/pessimism for a moment. Blizzard is by no means a perfect company or business but they aren't some diabolical machine out to ruin players' lives either.

You also have to keep in mind that despite the extra expansion they are adding daily login rewards, which they could end up implementing in some other fashion down the line after the initial promotion. They could have just not offered any compensation & just given the 3rd expansion and the middle finger to players.

Blizzard is the same as any other smart company. They are always looking to add to and increase streams of income. There is no doubt that they think long term in regards to this, and saw a long time ago that xpacs were more lucrative than adventures.

[StrawberryZebra]

The sad irony is that no matter what Blizzard does, people will likely still keep calling HS the "the worst new player experience" and keep demanding more. Hearthstone will probably never shake that stigma, thanks to the internet, and all the while Blizzard is going to keep teaching players that they are entitled to free stuff.

Maybe the answer lies not in just bombarding new players with free cards, but in a change in game modes. It's reasonably common for CCG's to have a Pauper mode, were only cards below a certain rarity can be played. A couple of online ones also offer a Mixed Mode, where cards from both players collections are shuffled together. There's lots of ways to help even out the playing field without just handing out a complete collection to everyone who makes an account.

Perhaps Blizzard could also offer new accounts a limited number of class-specific packs too, which contain cards commonly played by that class across all Standard expansions, to help new starters get at least the shell of a decent enough class deck put together. They're not going to magically allow new players to catch up, but they'll certainly help them find their feet.

[Polarthief]

My two cents: Blizzard always says how much they care about returning/new players (hell it's actually their primary target demographic than their current players, especially according to WoW and HS...), and then they do pretty much nothing (both WoW and HS at least) when it comes to those players. Both types of players (new/returning) are leagues behind other players who have been playing and have the gold to buy some packs.

Again, pretty much the same argument can be used on WoW as well. They really, REALLY only look at gaining new/getting returning players much more than keeping current players, yet do nothing for those players. It's like a moronic cycle of stupidity.

[Deleted]

Maybe the answer lies not in just bombarding new players with free cards, but in a change in game modes. It's reasonably common for CCG's to have a Pauper mode, were only cards below a certain rarity can be played. A couple of online ones also offer a Mixed Mode, where cards from both players collections are shuffled together. There's lots of ways to help even out the playing field without just handing out a complete collection to everyone who makes an account.

I totally agree that just throwing packs are players is not the right answer. Blizzard could perhaps add a few more but I'm skeptical about just how useful they would be, or gratifying for that matter. I like that Blizzard is trying out more moderate and alternative ways of handing things out, like quests at the beginning of an expansion that earns you extra packs for the new expansion, or how they handed out C'thun at the start of old gods.

I'm not sold on idea of a mixed mode though. That sounds more like something that would fit tavern brawl and the deck building part would have to be automatic, just because you can only put two players together with matchmaking and after matchmaking is done you want to hop into the game pretty fast. It does sound like something that would be fun with friends though. I frequently play with a few friends where we build wacky or random decks, but as a separate mode, don't think so. Plus the game doesn't need more game modes anyway. We already have wild, standard, arena, and tavern brawl, plus two of them split between ranked and casual.

Perhaps Blizzard could also offer new accounts a limited number of class-specific packs too, which contain cards commonly played by that class across all Standard expansions, to help new starters get at least the shell of a decent enough class deck put together. They're not going to magically allow new players to catch up, but they'll certainly help them find their feet.

Maybe not packs per say but they could do something I see in mobile games all the time, which is daily or weekly special offers. E.g. a weekly offer, where the shop presents perhaps 3-4 cards (random or otherwise), one set for each class, and you can buy any one or all of them for a price in gold and / or cash. It would be random so you can't just buy whatever card you want but still would be an alternate way of spending your gold, instead of buying card packs. You could avoid the latest expansion, so you can never buy any of the very latest cards, so the vets would mostly buy packs for the expansion, unless there was a particular card they wished from an older expansion that they didn't have yet.

[StrawberryZebra]

I'm not sold on idea of a mixed mode though.

It's actually been rather interesting whenever I've tried it, but it does lack some long term interest. For Hearthstone I would agree that it's more suited to being a Tavern Brawl, however I was throwing it out more as an example than something Blizzard should be seriously considering.

Another interesting way I've seen to help on board new players has been to have premade decks you can play that rotate on a weekly basis. They don't need to be top perfoming decks, just something that's properly constructed. It's a good way of introducing new players to various deck archetypes, as well as serving as a kind of tutorial for making a deck of your own. It gives players an idea of whats possible, and lets them play with cards they're not familiar with yet. Kind of a crash course in advanced game mechanics if you will.

I've never seen them be restricted to just new players either, so Veteran players who are perhaps lacking a well made class deck or want to try something new can try them out too. As long as they're not availible for ranked modes then there's little reprocussions from it. You could also even put them in the shop too and let players buy them wholesale if they so wish. Additionally, if the decks are constructed by pro players, it helps promote Hearthstone as an eSport and can potentially provide other merchandising opportunities for Blizzard further down the line.