Legion is the new Vanilla

[Charge me Doctor]

You contradict yourself if you think damage meters are a good thing and at the same time RP can be brought back into the game.
Addons need to go and raids need to be completable single-player with story NPCs.
Only then can you group up with idiots and compete for the world first if you want to.
This distinction must be made for the story to have meaning.

damage meters (read:addons) are a good thing, and RP can be brought back in the game. The difference here is that different kinds of players like different things. Some players like to compete with others, some players like the story. WoW used to be somewhere in the middle, and if they wouldn't "pick a side" the game would end up being dead.
The only thing that stops class RP being brought back into the game are community, in sense of a chain "more RP >>> less balanced game >>> community being outraged over lack of balance"

I think "world first" should be left out of conversation, it's such a bullshit thing from the very beginning. It's irrelevant thing that was picked up by players. Does dark souls or any other game stops being enjoyable or relevant when someone reaches and kills last boss first? No, that's why world first kills, while being impressive feats of strength, are irrelevant for the playerbase.

[AwkwardSquirtle]

Did nobody tell you about the Ritual of Doom in the Warlock order hall? That's been in since legion launched.

[JamesMartigo]

If we can't have Legacy we might aswell have the current content turn into it. Looking forward to the full transformation so that the game can be amazing again.

Make Azeroth great again?

[WhiteEagle888]

damage meters (read:addons) are a good thing, and RP can be brought back in the game. The difference here is that different kinds of players like different things. Some players like to compete with others, some players like the story. WoW used to be somewhere in the middle, and if they wouldn't "pick a side" the game would end up being dead.
The only thing that stops class RP being brought back into the game are community, in sense of a chain "more RP >>> less balanced game >>> community being outraged over lack of balance"

I think "world first" should be left out of conversation, it's such a bullshit thing from the very beginning. It's irrelevant thing that was picked up by players. Does dark souls or any other game stops being enjoyable or relevant when someone reaches and kills last boss first? No, that's why world first kills, while being impressive feats of strength, are irrelevant for the playerbase.

You contradict yourself again. World first is part of the idiotic shit mindless raiders (I honestly don't know how affected you are at this point) demanded for a superficial sense of power.
RP needs to be brought back, there is no "balance" between doing 1 more dps and feeling like you are a character in the game.
DPS Raiding can exist besides RP but RP ALWAYS needs to come first, as that's the heart and soul of a good RPG.

- - - Updated - - -

Did nobody tell you about the Ritual of Doom in the Warlock order hall? That's been in since legion launched.

XD LOL XD Consider my post an extension to that then :P

[Charge me Doctor]

You contradict yourself again. World first is part of the idiotic shit mindless raiders (I honestly don't know how affected you are at this point) demanded for a superficial sense of power.
RP needs to be brought back, there is no "balance" between doing 1 more dps and feeling like you are a character in the game.
DPS Raiding can exist besides RP but RP ALWAYS needs to come first, as that's the heart and soul of a good RPG.

How do i contradict myself when i say that the game can't be PR focused or competitive?
I literally said that blizzard stepped down from RP route to make game more balanced (read: competitive), you can even trace that over the course of the game, they tried to bring more tanks into a game in late TBC (paladins and druids actually being able to tank, but filled different niches, warrior being boss tank, paladin being AoE tank and druid being damage sponge, which was kinda "RP-ish), then they continued towards making the game more balanced (in sense of giving players more options, making more specs balanced and actually playable at end game content), but less "RP-ish", then we've got whole "homogenization" and "bring the player - not the class" thing. It continued through cata and then blizzard started stepping down a notch in pandaria (when a well balanced and really unique and interesting class was brought back but flew under peoples radar) and starting throwing more RP stuff back (yay, now i can tell a fire mage off destruction warlock now instead of them being, well, fire mages) there we have a culmination in legion - almost everything is balanced now and it doesn't hurt spec "RP-ishness" much.

They do that to please as much players as they can.

Off course they can't please everyone.

[Heathy]

i think ppl just stopped wasting their time doing pointless shit, i mean there is nothing stopping you doing a 30 man paladin en normal run, it might succeed it might fail, i'm guessing it'll be tough to find that many palas willing to try that instead of just doing a regular run with a decent mix of classes.

i'd probably stop playing a healing class if i couldn't use a healing addon / bindable click combinations. the default frames aren't that great for the pace of the game today.

[Charge me Doctor]

i'd probably stop playing a healing class if i couldn't use a healing addon / bindable click combinations. the default frames aren't that great for the pace of the game today.

You can go by by replacing all your heals with macroes and, well, moving default frames somewhere closer to the center. I don't understand people who "can't heal without addons". Not "i don't understand" in a sense "lol i'm so good that i don't need any addons lol" but i sincerely don't understand what they privide what is not provided via default raid UI and how that improves healing. The only addons i bring in raids are DBM and WA, on any role

[Soikona]

Ignorant person not watching South Park detected.

People being ignorant with the word ignorant triggers me

[Heathy]

You can go by by replacing all your heals with macroes and, well, moving default frames somewhere closer to the center. I don't understand people who "can't heal without addons". Not "i don't understand" in a sense "lol i'm so good that i don't need any addons lol" but i sincerely don't understand what they privide what is not provided via default raid UI and how that improves healing. The only addons i bring in raids are DBM and WA, on any role

i'm just used to having healbot there, i've used it since tbc, ppl don't like change, but having to completely relearn a new way of healing ppl, that would make me drop playing the role, i'd just go shadow or play another class or just stop playing to avoid having to relearn my flow all over again.

there is no way i'm making 20+ macros though, i wouldn't say i'm one of the best healers, but i'm a decent healer, most of that is attributed to muscle memory and my healing addon. i think i'd be shit again with too much change.

i mean everyone uses some sort of addon, i don't use that many either but I wouldn't be as good as i am today without them. i wouldn't be topping meters anyway. (just to note I don't record often mostly its for my own purposes i can see if i'm doing what i'm supposed to be doing at any given moment, and maybe ill share them with my guildies, i won't lie i kinda enjoy video editing even though i'm as amateur as it gets) i'm hoping its easier to understand with a visual representation.

its like using newer frame addons, vuhdo or grid or some others, i've tried, but, its tricky learning an addon, while needing to perform at your best, its not like you can just change addons on a whim and pick up perfectly fine, you get used to something you learn its quirks and limitations. I might end up having to change healing frames soon because HB doesn't look like its getting updated any more, it does occasionally bug out. the pace of the game though, you can't heal ppl like you could in the past by targeting them and then pressing a binded heal, you really do kinda need the speed of the click>heal to land fast enough. reaction time is everything these days. its the layout and what the addon tells you aswell, i can see who has my echos, renews, poms, i can see who has aggro. these things are different for every healing frame.

[Evangeliste]

This seems like click bait.
I can see why Blizzard took it away. There still a lot of players out there who have little tolerance to other players level of skill. Previous game designers in Blizzard who did previous expansions have loathed other players gimping other players ability to see content with things like breaking gearscore addon. Obviously as new designers have come in, that has gone out the door a little with things like ilvl, ahead of the curve, but yeah.
Gamers ideology and patience has changed. Casual gamers are being included as well as more dedicated ones. In Vanilla people had the time to spend a lot grinding more, people wanted to as well. Nowadays the people who played for years have grown up, need to spend less time on the game. Newer gamers have a different outlook, considering over the last few years it's been about games with say 40 hours of play compared to older that could get 100+.
It's nice to be whacky but not everyone plays ball.

[Allenseiei]

You contradict yourself if you think damage meters are a good thing and at the same time RP can be brought back into the game.
Addons need to go and raids need to be completable single-player with story NPCs.
Only then can you group up with idiots and compete for the world first if you want to.
This distinction must be made for the story to have meaning.

Damage meters have been a thing since MC release in vanilla... Difference from vanilla content is that you could do all PvE content if you pass two requirements:
1. Gear
2. Have at least 15/40 players doing good output dps, another bunch average and you could have some backpack players to fill the rest of the slots.
Addons were something players wanted, since it was a way to customize your interface. Have raiding tools gone too far? Probably, but Blizzard are already changing aspects such as removing the code and adding more in-game notifications.
Your line of "...raids need to be completable single-player with story NPCs." completely contradicts the very nature of vanilla and an MMORPG. Why do you want to play a single player game in an MMORPG? In vanilla, to culminate many story lines required organize raid content. Others required a mix of single-player questing, with 5 man and then culminating in 40 man raid (Onyxia's storyline for example).

You're clearly biased in favor of the RP community and clearly hate competitive guilds. Why did the RP diminish throughout the history of this game? Because the mayority of players dont care about RP. They might care about the story, but not getting so into it.
Why does world first even bother you? It has been a thing since Vanilla, although less information flew around. The game hasn't catered to hardcore players, in fact, it has gone away from them and diminishing their feats of strength to the point where it's hard to maintain a hardcore guild because there are no incentives other than short lived glory.

[Yunru]

Back in vanilla we used the doom-summon as a way to do a lottery.

Person who died got the money. Like a rollete.

[Solis666]

Totally agree with that, we need a way to make every choice you made on your character somehow viable to play the game, I remember some pug raids where someone with a no top tier spec was kicked from the group because of that... wtf bro, why the game gives you choices if actually there are no choices at all

[RoKPaNda]

People still watch South Park? Well I guess I shouldn't be too surprised, garbage like Family Guy seems pretty popular too.

Anyway I can't see anyone holding Legion in the same reverence that they do Vanilla. Is it a good expansion? Sure. And hey it even started out looking like it could be the best expansion, but then, well, yeah.

[Thorbalt]

You contradict yourself if you think damage meters are a good thing and at the same time RP can be brought back into the game.
Addons need to go and raids need to be completable single-player with story NPCs.
Only then can you group up with idiots and compete for the world first if you want to.
This distinction must be made for the story to have meaning.

sounds like all you really want is something made by bethesda, bioware, or NOT BLIZZ

so stop playing and go have fun in those games, because what you are describing is NEVER going to happen. and you are almost trump level stupid if you think rp and meters are mutually exclusive

[TheVaryag]

Vanilla players your cries have been heard!

"...member when warlocks could perform the doomguard ritual with four people and one of them died in the process?"
"Yeah I member! Those were the good old days when WoW was still an mmo!"

Ladies and Gentlemen
I present you: http://ptr.wowdb.com/items/147871-doom-stone (not limited to warlocks, all doomstones sold separately)

It's safe to come back now - we also have bacon http://www.wowdb.com/items/133681-crispy-bacon!!
I'm sure most vanilla elitists also agree that only the first 151 are real Pokémon too.

Go away. It aint even close to the quality of vanilla and the sense of community, dungeon difficulty, gear aquisition... go away thank you.

[FelPlague]

Vanilla players your cries have been heard!

"...member when warlocks could perform the doomguard ritual with four people and one of them died in the process?"
"Yeah I member! Those were the good old days when WoW was still an mmo!"

Ladies and Gentlemen
I present you: http://ptr.wowdb.com/items/147871-doom-stone (not limited to warlocks, all doomstones sold separately)

It's safe to come back now - we also have bacon http://www.wowdb.com/items/133681-crispy-bacon!!
I'm sure most vanilla elitists also agree that only the first 151 are real Pokémon too.

the ritual of doom quest for warlocks allready does this "3 warlocks 1 die" thing, but iam wondering what this new item will do...

also the new pally/warlock class mount quests are very much in memory of the old quests ,following the old story but in a upgraded term, and talking about it

[Doombringer]

I'm wondering about the "RP" that is supposedly in WoW. Where is it, where was it?

I can't take branching dialogue paths. I can't repel down into a dungeon because I have 50 feet of rope. I can't complete a quest 3 or more different ways (traditionally, with charisma, or with subterfuge). We can't multi-class (but we can multi-spec at least). Every dungeon is a wham-bam run through to the end, there's no random encounters or different paths to take (Vanilla DID have larger dungeons, but they were still largely static)...

You guys throwing around the word "RPG" really should understand what RPG means. WoW classic was RP Lite. The lightest form of Lite.

[Vintersol]

If we can't have Legacy we might aswell have the current content turn into it. Looking forward to the full transformation so that the game can be amazing again.

Make Azeroth Great Again!

[MyndZero]

No, it's not.


/thread