Why Haven't Bosses Learned in 10+ years...

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

That's the difference between a computer game and live RPG. As GM in a live RPG, you can make decisions like that on the fly - what does the boss know at any given time (and what do his lieutenants know, etc) and how would they act on this? And players understand they have to be stealthy and anticipate detection and reaction. Computer games are more limited, or at least that's how Blizz chooses to program it.

[Rafoel]

It isn't even this bad for EN or Nighthold. Just consider this. We enter the building through hidden passage that was supposed to be inpassable. Then:

1) Skorpyron is the mindless beast.
2) Anomaly is not a beast, but still mindless.
3) Trilliax is sort of guard, when we kill him they know we're here. But:

4) Gul'dan is busy with completing the ritual asap. He can't go down and help. He also trusts in the might of Legion and the Nightborne.
5) Elisande appearently "saw all possible futures" and thinks she can't lose. In case, her logics of staying exactly at Nightwell, her source of power, is the best choice strategically.
6) Botanist is only strong at his garden. He also isn't supposed to defend the Nighthold, his strength is rather a coincidence (why do we actually kill him?)
7) Same for Star Augur, he would do shit outside of his observatory.
8) Aluriel is confident she would beat us easily. For her to not call reinforcements... perfecly fits her character. She doesn't even imagine she can lose to "lesser beings".
9) Krosus can't move out of the ocean, so...
10) As for Tichondrius, I also thought he was busy doing something? He is the one that could actually come and help others, but I guess nobody called his help, as explained above.

[Deleted]

The problem with the philosophy that bosses should be smart is very hard to implement. Ill try to consolidate my thoughts on it as good as I can.

1. Healers are a very reactive and anticipation role. They heal those who stand in fire and throw damage reductions/shields onto expected damage to...well, reduce its damage. The bigger raid cooldowns fall into both aforementioned categories.
With that in mind, it would require a far more mobile healer (instant casts/casting whilst moving) to avoid all the stuff that is thrown at them. And if it is all targeting the healers, then the dps and/or tanks would be taking less damage which results in healers becoming less useful for their current role.

2. What are tanks then supposed to do? Tanks in WoW aren't equipped with abilities that prevent the boss from swatting your resident shaman to his ancestors if the greater part of his focus is on them. Taunt and deathgrip are the closest things to being a 'tank' thing to do in such a situation. They would need much more abilities that slow the boss or avert the attention to them! Or would they become "healers" too? Mitigating/shielding allies from damage? That would simply revert the situation to them becoming normal tanks again or a new support type of tank.

3. Lore. Plain and simply said: We are playing a game. The problem that this brings is that we appear to only be 10-30 heroes whom are trying to thwart whatever evil that is going on. Sure, we are the pinnacle of our class, yet we are still few in number. Having npc's fighting beside us would simply create a visual cluster of bodies during a raid. However, if we were to look at it from a lore point of view instead of the actual game experience, we would be with far more people and had our healers behind our lines. Sadly, some people's computers are already melting with just the idea of having to play such a massive visual game.

With all that said, tanks may also not appear that threatening in-game due to the lower damage output they have, but try to look at it as the following: If a man with a shield and sword were to stand right in your face, constantly trying to hack and slash you to bits whilst protecting himself and blocking you off to move anywhere with his shield, you would try to fight him first. You simply can't reach the assailants buddies whom are hiding behind him. So all you do is throw whatever range spells you have at them in the hope that it hits them. (These are usually the arrow/marked stuff that we see on the ground and have to dodge/move out of. That plus the fact that they would be seriously harmed in lore if they neglected tanks.

Anyways, that is my take on the whole smart boss scenario. WoW-tanks just don't have the tools for such a job and would not remain the same type of thing that everyone has become used to. Perhaps some MMO will come up with a clever way of implementing tanks, but for WoW it's simply too much of an 'alien' thing.

Anyways, that

[Donald Hellscream]

As people have stated before, it makes sense why we aren't being bumrushed as soon as we enter the nighthold.

1. We enter covertly through a door that was supposed to be sealed.
2. the first three bosses are nigh on mindless
3. while they know we are there after Trilliax dies, Spellblade Auriel is too arrogant to call for back up as she believes we have no chance of killing her, Krosus is immobile, Tichondrius is too arrogant to go out of his way to help the Nightborne, Star Augur is busy doing Augur things, Botanist doesn't give a fuck about anything but his plants, Elisande does not believe she can lose as she believe she've scried every single possible future and thus stays in the nightwell and Gul'dan is busy prepping Illidan's body for Sargeras.

[Mesoforte]

Dump the trinity, every class is able to tank (somewhat) and heal (a bit) and dps.

Basically one guy pops all mitigation, tanks for 20 seconds, runs away. Another guy jumps in front, repeat. win!

And you just took away any reason for me to play the game. :\

Zergs aren't fun, except in Starcraft.

[Schizoide]

GW2 did that at launch, and while it did work fine, it was much less enjoyable than traditional dikuMUD role-based combat as seen in WoW.

[Matthias]

It isn't even this bad for EN or Nighthold. Just consider this. We enter the building through hidden passage that was supposed to be inpassable. Then:

1) Skorpyron is the mindless beast.
2) Anomaly is not a beast, but still mindless.
3) Trilliax is sort of guard, when we kill him they know we're here. But:

4) Gul'dan is busy with completing the ritual asap. He can't go down and help. He also trusts in the might of Legion and the Nightborne.
5) Elisande appearently "saw all possible futures" and thinks she can't lose. In case, her logics of staying exactly at Nightwell, her source of power, is the best choice strategically.
6) Botanist is only strong at his garden. He also isn't supposed to defend the Nighthold, his strength is rather a coincidence (why do we actually kill him?)
7) Same for Star Augur, he would do shit outside of his observatory.
8) Aluriel is confident she would beat us easily. For her to not call reinforcements... perfecly fits her character. She doesn't even imagine she can lose to "lesser beings".
9) Krosus can't move out of the ocean, so...
10) As for Tichondrius, I also thought he was busy doing something? He is the one that could actually come and help others, but I guess nobody called his help, as explained above.

Very great analysis and insight. However those explainations don't excuse Tichondrius or Gul'dan imo. Both should be full aware that we're not to be trifled with. I mean it's harder to count which of Tich's brothers we haven't owned yet. I think Mephistroth is the final one standing. Anetheron, Varmithas, Balnazzar, Detheroc, Malganis. I mean Dreadlords are supposed to be super smart, and Tich was the best of the best, and he's just lingering in some corner. He didn't think of anything creative? He was tasked with keeping an eye on Gul'dan btw, so maybe that's why he didn't leave his post? meh.

As for Gul'dan as I said....the guy literally watched us kill Archimonde, you think he'd be a bit more cautious, even the power he himself could summon shouldn't be enough to defeat us. I mean our resume is rather impressive at this point, Arthas, Deathwing, half of Kil'jaeden, etc.

I suppose he knew he needed the demonic power to take us on, the guy can barely walk naturally after all.

[Rafoel]

As for Gul'dan as I said....the guy literally watched us kill Archimonde, you think he'd be a bit more cautious, even the power he himself could summon shouldn't be enough to defeat us. I mean our resume is rather impressive at this point, Arthas, Deathwing, half of Kil'jaeden, etc.

And knowing that, he could decide that his only hope of winning is completing the ritual and summoning Sargeras to Azeroth.

[Matthias]

And knowing that, he could decide that his only hope of winning is completing the ritual and summoning Sargeras to Azeroth.

Desperate times call for desperate measures I suppose. Summoning Archimonde didn't work, so he goes for Sargeras.

[Danuru]

Bad guys are bad strategists. It's a universal law. Look at Hitler

[Halobob87]

Very great analysis and insight. However those explainations don't excuse Tichondrius or Gul'dan imo. Both should be full aware that we're not to be trifled with. I mean it's harder to count which of Tich's brothers we haven't owned yet. I think Mephistroth is the final one standing. Anetheron, Varmithas, Balnazzar, Detheroc, Malganis. I mean Dreadlords are supposed to be super smart, and Tich was the best of the best, and he's just lingering in some corner. He didn't think of anything creative? He was tasked with keeping an eye on Gul'dan btw, so maybe that's why he didn't leave his post? meh.

As for Gul'dan as I said....the guy literally watched us kill Archimonde, you think he'd be a bit more cautious, even the power he himself could summon shouldn't be enough to defeat us. I mean our resume is rather impressive at this point, Arthas, Deathwing, half of Kil'jaeden, etc.

I suppose he knew he needed the demonic power to take us on, the guy can barely walk naturally after all.

Actually, the biggest solo kill that we have achived is Lei shen..
We don't defeat arthas, and we had 0 chance to di it actually , he was just testing us, in fact, he was capable to just was shot us on pull.
We kill deathwing only with the major help of the aspects and, exepecially, using the power of the Demon's soul.
Same for Kil'jaeden, we defeat him at half power, with the help of the blue drakes and the sacrifice of the sunwell's incarnation.

Yes... we actually defeated archimonde, but thats mainly couse we had an huge plot armor (and we tectically had the help of Yrell, kadghar and Grommash).

[Matthias]

Actually, the biggest solo kill that we have achived is Lei shen..
We don't defeat arthas, and we had 0 chance to di it actually , he was just testing us, in fact, he was capable to just was shot us on pull.
We kill deathwing only with the major help of the aspects and, exepecially, using the power of the Demon's soul.
Same for Kil'jaeden, we defeat him at half power, with the help of the blue drakes and the sacrifice of the sunwell's incarnation.

Yes... we actually defeated archimonde, but thats mainly couse we had an huge plot armor (and we tectically had the help of Yrell, kadghar and Grommash).

Doesn't explain why the 5+ Dreadlords don't just jump us instead of being arrogant to try take us on alone.

[Raugnaut]

Faction Champions had awful PvP strategy. Those morons didn't aim healers. (did they?)

I know the rogue and Warrior would sit on my tree ass all the time, CC, slow, stun, and interupt the !@#$ outta me. Tanks preoccupied the mages (Of course, mages NEVER know how to focus properly)

[JIMM-]

wish they design more encounters like lady vashj and kaelthas in the eye... it was epic

[Gorgodeus]

To be fair last time Blizzard tried something rather creative was with that "Epic" encounter with Deathwing....which was terrible. We all would have rather'd a Neferian 3.0.

Spine of Deathwing was freaking awesome. Deathwing himself was a major letdown after you defeated heroic Spine the first time.

[Feel The Power]

Would be very interesting to see a "learning AI" get their hands on a boss and see what it does. Google Deep Mind / WoW collab plz

They should let the Google Deep Dream thing design what the next Old God Boss looks like, which it would of course just make it be a Chihuahua with 40 eyes and with other various dogs as it's nose and ears, with those various dogs being made out of more eyes.

[Deleted]

Ever wonder why final bosses don't just bum rush us with all their bosses and trash at once as soon as we enter the raid? I mean imagine if as soon as we set foot into Nighthold at least 8 of the bosses rambo'd us, we'd get wrecked! Assuming Blizz doesn't just tune them as a council encounter

I mean I suppose you could say it's just arrogance on the part of the final boss. I mean Arthas wanted us to reach him, battle testing us to see if we could become his lieutenants. But then you have people like Ragnaros and Neferian. They've literally been defeated by us before, yet they sit idly in their final boss room like "No problem I gots this!"

I mean Gul'dan literally witnessed us take down nearly every "Warlord of Draenor" and freakin Archimonde himself, Sargeras's left hand. Yet he thinks Tichondrius alone is suppose to stop us as he casually meditates at the top of the spire? I mean there is arrogance and just being plain stupid. Is there no game piece on the board that doesn't underestimate us epic clad purple hunters!?

And why haven't they learned to focus healers? I mean this was basic PvP even in Vanilla, you don't go for the most durable one, you go for the one keeping everyone alive. What makes Tanks so threatening anyway? They tend to do the least damage. Is it a pride thing? Can bosses not tolerate the raid alpha stepping to them unchecked?

I haven't done every raid, so I'm wondering has their been an encounter where bosses focus healers? Or the top DPS? Could be a nice mix up.

Lol just having some fun.

It's only through game mechanics that we're able to beat them though, since we can just try over and over. So it evens out.

[Sunaka]

wish they design more encounters like lady vashj and kaelthas in the eye... it was epic

Either one of those fights in LFR would be horrendous. Even normal would be iffy these days. Those fights are current-era Heroic at the least (in their heyday). Vashj was clearly the easier of the two, but the amount of raid positioning and awareness was pretty huge, and some of the current stuff doesn't entirely compare. Kael was such a drawn-out, planning-required fight that even normal groups would have problems.

Then the complaints would roll in. It'd be interesting to see newer fights using those kinds of mechanics, but they'd be super prohibitive for some groups. As much as people despise the existence of LFR, it ain't going anywhere any time soon, and they'd be utter horror to go through with the vast majority of groups in there.

OT: One of the reasons bosses haven't learned is because, canonically, the old ones died when the first raid group went through and iced them. Nef, Rag, and Gul'dan are the only examples of bosses who witnesses the demise of other bosses, and everything that happened in ToC was seen in specific circumstances. Not much learning to impart when the messenger is killed. Sure, it makes more sense strategically to send in all your troops at once, or to call them all in midfight, but from a gameplay perspective...ew. You have arrogance all the time (Tichondrius works as a current example), and you have folks like Ellisande that really maybe just thought it was blustering. But as far as sharing what people experienced along the way...it's all just rumors, all things considered.

Look at all the big bads that went down over the years...while a bunch of no-name doofuses helped out, it was Tirion who beat Arthas. Maiev beat Illidan (with the help of Johnny Awesome <AFK>). Thrall killed Deathwing with the other aspects. Archimonde was beaten by a bunch of ants aided by an overblown Draenei chick, a neutered Orc, and an old man. The lore says that while we're awesome dude(tte)s, someone specific accomplished those things. It's not until Legion where we're officially responsible for some of the big wins, and the Nightborne are flat-out under the impression that they're superior.

Honestly, even from a gameplay perspective, they need to eventually add in a fight where the players just lose. That they did that with Lich King was a great break from the trend. "Good job, heroes, but u ded, lawl!" If they do that kind of thing again, where you're expected to die, and make it part of the fight, it'll break it up again, and it'll be interesting. But they can't make it a full-on loss, because that won't work for gameplay. For that reason, they can't just make Joe Q. Raidboss bring in a tide of death to wipe you out, because that won't be compelling. Players die, they get annoyed, they complain. But if we're fighting Kil'jaeden, or on Argus, and a wave of demons come in and annihilate the living hell out of us, just to have a lore reason where we can pull ourselves out of the dirt and get in a final hit, now that's a bit of a different story.

[Tseng]

I think it's quite fun to take a step back and think about what mechanics actually mean from a realistic point of view (just like the comic does).

For example tanking:

What makes Tanks so threatening anyway? They tend to do the least damage. Is it a pride thing? Can bosses not tolerate the raid alpha stepping to them unchecked?

The concept of "taunting" seems even more hilarious to me - while it has become such a central part of MMOs people don't even seem to think about it, but what are tanks actually doing when taunting - telling "Your Mama" jokes?

[Matthias]

I think it's quite fun to take a step back and think about what mechanics actually mean from a realistic point of view (just like the comic does).

For example tanking:


The concept of "taunting" seems even more hilarious to me - while it has become such a central part of MMOs people don't even seem to think about it, but what are tanks actually doing when taunting - telling "Your Mama" jokes?

ROFL thats a good one.