Sylvanas - The Lich Queen - Her only hope left?

[Aucald]

Possibility of enslavement. Enslavement. Spot the difference. Also, lack of consent was not mentioned there, so I'm not sure why you feel the need to straw-man Magnagarde's argument (then again you did it already by talking how BDSM doesn't fit because of its dynamics which is already beyond the scope of that argument). It's stupid enough on its own already.

So, other than a straw-man, an empty statement that has no actual explanation, inability to comprehend that Magnagarde's comment was a general statement, yet focusing on Sylvanas and nothing else and dishonestly not addressing that my analogy covers all four elements of enslavement that Mangagarde has postulated, you've got one big nothing. It's part for the course though, so can't say I'm surprised.

But hey, since you insist on boring me with irrelevancy, if BDSM comparison offends you so very much, let's change that to rape. Happy now? Woo, lack of consent here. So still meets all four elements of Magnagarde (and is even better in power department, since rape is usually about that) and fits the fifth one you pulled out of thin air. Which by your combined brain power somehow makes rape enslavement. Gotta defend that too, potentially by claiming that even after adjusting to your extension of Magnagarde's nonsense it's still somehow a false equivalency or are you going to acknowledge that said nonsense wouldn't fit any definition of enslavement?

And last time I checked, I haven't contested the idea that enslavement was on the table. What I did contest was the idea that it was enslavement for sure and it couldn't have been anything else, when we have no data on the subject other than a mention of Sylvanas wanting to steal that power, which is "not enslavement".

No.

And outside of the tortured, circular assembly tottered out above I think this where I bow out of this debate. I have no response that doesn't cross the boundaries of decorum.

Edit: No, I lied. My post has nothing to do with Magnagarde's argument and everything to do with your comparison. Consent is the cornerstone of BDSM, but it's also completely inapplicable to what is happening between the two characters - nor does rape, which you seem delighted to trot out for reasons that escape me. I don't care a whit about your emotional state or if you're bored or not. I am not here to entertain you, nor is anyone else. Nothing at all revolves around you, cares about you, or caters to your whims no matter what you think. You can disagree with me all you like, and that's fine. But do not condescend to me or anyone else participating in a civil discussion. This is the final warning I will issue to you on this score before action is taken.

That is my concluding riposte to this argument. Carry on with others as you like.

[Scottyjscizzle]

god I hope not, would rather she dies. Shes become such a forced character this expansion. I mean really the "loa" do him to make the person likely least trusted by the horde into its leader...because she blew a horn.

[Friendlyimmolation]

god I hope not, would rather she dies. Shes become such a forced character this expansion. I mean really the "loa" do him to make the person likely least trusted by the horde into its leader...because she blew a horn.

blowing that horn also that thing with saving other members of the horde, she could have dropped vol'jin in the dirt and bailed by herself.

[tss]

Sylvanas is

1. a total cunt piece of shit

2. gonna get some asinine redemption in whatever expansion/patch deals with the Shadowlands, and Vol'jin will surely be involved somehow

[Scottyjscizzle]

blowing that horn also that thing with saving other members of the horde, she could have dropped vol'jin in the dirt and bailed by herself.

I know, but that doesn't make her warchief worthy. Hell her own people already betrayed her once. Think part of my problem is how pointless it was to make ol trolljin into warchief and have him to literally nothing..besides die.

[Friendlyimmolation]

I know, but that doesn't make her warchief worthy. Hell her own people already betrayed her once. Think part of my problem is how pointless it was to make ol trolljin into warchief and have him to literally nothing..besides die.

Putress/Vara and a few apothecaries/creations =/= her own people. Thats like saying his own people race betrayed Varian when the defias rioted.

Agree on Vol'jin's wasted rule.

[Zulkhan]

Zulkhⱥn

My ascension in the real of memes gods is happening. Cower before me, mortals.

Vol'jin openly resisted Garrosh for a long time, whereas Baine and Lor'themar simply kept talking, whereas Sylvanas didn't do either of these things and kept silent on the matter, despite acquiring the power to raise undead armies.

While I agree that Vol'jin confronted Garrosh from the beginning where Sylvanas was content enough delivering snarky remarks earning her nothing more than "bitch" titles (and despite the fact that her opinion on Garrosh's campaigns wasn't that different from Vol'jin's either) on more practical terms no one was in the condition to make a serious move on Garrosh. Back in Cataclysm the circumstances supporting any form of rebellion simply lacked, the Horde needed unity during trying times regardless of its leadership and this argument was stressed by Vol'jin and Baine alike. The Horde was facing a great crisis and it needed to move as one as long such issues weren't solved. That was much clear.

What's the meaning of this? It's that no Horde member, included Sylvanas, could think about denying Garrosh's authority without the cooperation of other members, otherwise a single Horde race would have had to face the other five. And while Vol'jin has the merit of being the only Horde leader showing the initiative to deal with the Garrosh problem, the circumstances were at that point favorable for such a move as he was quite aware (hinted by his "talks" with Lor'themar and the way he quite clearly reached every other leader on the matter) that now the Horde could be united on the purpose of dethroning Garrosh, something that completely lacked in Cataclysm, times in which Sylvanas could have never thought to do what you propose.

[Aucald]

While I agree that Vol'jin confronted Garrosh from the beginning where Sylvanas was content enough delivering snarky remarks earning her nothing more than "bitch" titles (and despite the fact that her opinion on Garrosh's campaigns wasn't that different from Vol'jin's either) on more practical terms no one was in the condition to make a serious move on Garrosh. Back in Cataclysm the circumstances supporting any form of rebellion simply lacked, the Horde needed unity during trying times regardless of its leadership and this argument was stressed by Vol'jin and Baine alike. The Horde was facing a great crisis and it needed to move as one as long such issues weren't solved. That was much clear.

What's the meaning of this? It's that no Horde member, included Sylvanas, could think about denying Garrosh's authority without the cooperation of other members, otherwise a single Horde race would have had to face the other five. And while Vol'jin has the merit of being the only Horde leader showing the initiative to deal with the Garrosh problem, the circumstances were at that point favorable for such a move as he was quite aware (hinted by his "talks" with Lor'themar and the way he quite clearly reached every other leader on the matter) that now the Horde could be united on the purpose of dethroning Garrosh, something that completely lacked in Cataclysm, times in which Sylvanas could have never thought to do what you propose.

I think it is also somewhat telling that Sylvanas is the only Horde leader that, in my estimation, successfully put Garrosh in his place without retribution or even backtalk on Garrosh's part - at the end of "Shadow of the Sun:"

"Garrosh Hellscream. I've walked the realms of the dead. I have seen the infinite dark. Nothing you say. Or do. Could possibly frighten me."

The army of undead that surrounded and protected the Dark Lady was still hers, body and soul. But they were no longer arrows in her quiver, not anymore. They were a bulwark against the infinite. They were to be used wisely, and no fool orc would squander them while she still walked the world of the living.

The warchief sheathed his axe onto his back, his mount sidling away from hers. After a long moment, he finally tore his gaze from those eyes.

"Very well, Dark Lady," he conceded loud enough for all to hear. "We will take Gilneas… your way."

While Vol'jin spearheaded the insurrection, I think Sylvanas' inability to be cowed was the first indicator that it could happen, that it was perhaps an inevitability given time.

[Friendlyimmolation]

I think it is also somewhat telling that Sylvanas is the only Horde leader that, in my estimation, successfully put Garrosh in his place without retribution or even backtalk on Garrosh's part - at the end of "Shadow of the Sun:"

"Garrosh Hellscream. I've walked the realms of the dead. I have seen the infinite dark. Nothing you say. Or do. Could possibly frighten me."

The army of undead that surrounded and protected the Dark Lady was still hers, body and soul. But they were no longer arrows in her quiver, not anymore. They were a bulwark against the infinite. They were to be used wisely, and no fool orc would squander them while she still walked the world of the living.

The warchief sheathed his axe onto his back, his mount sidling away from hers. After a long moment, he finally tore his gaze from those eyes.

"Very well, Dark Lady," he conceded loud enough for all to hear. "We will take Gilneas… your way."

While Vol'jin spearheaded the insurrection, I think Sylvanas' inability to be cowed was the first indicator that it could happen, that it was perhaps an inevitability given time.

basically don't get into a staring contest with Sylvanas.

[Maxilian]

basically don't get into a staring contest with Sylvanas.

Well its an unfair advantage when you don't even have to blink

[FelPlague]

They aint immortal and you cant say oh the horde would go against her cause SHE IS THE FUCKING WARCHIEF!!1

Her goal to is postpone indefinitely her and her peoples demise and clearly taking the lich kings powers for her own seems like the next logical step unless there is another group of beings like the Val'kyr who could do it for her.

yes they are immortal
there is multiple definitions of immortal in the world, the one world of warcraft goes by is the
"they cannot die from natural causes, they can be murdered, but will not die from age"
as the night elves where, they could live forever, as long as they wernt murdered

and yes if she started raising a horde of mindless undead, the horde would go against her... doesent matter if she is the warchief... dident we just have mop where the horde whent against the warchief...?

[Zulkhan]

I think it is also somewhat telling that Sylvanas is the only Horde leader that, in my estimation, successfully put Garrosh in his place without retribution or even backtalk on Garrosh's part

Yeah, I agree on the amusing effectiveness of Sylvanas' mere gaze, probably because gazing on it revealed how much what she said was true, as she literally faced something way more scarier than Garrosh's authority and power could ever be.

I have to say though that it was kind of hilarious as well how Garrosh pretty much ended his rant with Vol'jin with a mere and simple one-liner ("You have sealed your fate, troll") after Vol'jin's relatively long speech about the fate of Garrosh's reign and Garrosh himself (sort of a vicious blow on Garrosh's worst fears that eventually became reality) which looked quite weird considering how much on the offensive Garrosh initially started and verbally held his ground on Vol'jin's own rant until that point.

While Vol'jin spearheaded the insurrection, I think Sylvanas' inability to be cowed was the first indicator that it could happen, that it was perhaps an inevitability given time.

Garrosh was defined by insecurity and never possessed a personality capable to properly strike fear on veterans and rounded leaders, even less respect or trust. Only the low ranks were impressed by his external bravado and aggressiveness. The only thing the Horde leaders feared of Garrosh was never Garrosh himself but the recklessness with which he was ready to use the immense political power Thrall left in his hands.

[Maxilian]

Garrosh was defined by insecurity and never possessed a personality capable to properly strike fear on veterans and rounded leaders, even less respect or trust. Only the low ranks were impressed by his external bravado and aggressiveness. The only thing the Horde leaders feared of Garrosh was never Garrosh himself but the recklessness with which he was ready to use the immense political power Thrall left in his hands.

Most likely the reason that bad mouthing the Warchief was not that weird until Garrosh got the Dragonmaw clan to "educate on respect" those who dared talk against them.

[Zulkhan]

Most likely the reason that bad mouthing the Warchief was not that weird until Garrosh got the Dragonmaw clan to "educate on respect" those who dared talk against them.

Pretty much, which became blatant in Tides of War, with Garrosh basically trying to compensate his shortcomings as leader with violence and threats delivered through his fresh Gestapo-like forces. In Shadows of the Horde too Vol'jin mentions how Garrosh tried to use the "whipcrack" to overcome his own fears and doubts while never being truly successful on that.

[Maxilian]

Pretty much, which became blatant in Tides of War, with Garrosh basically trying to compensate his shortcomings as leader with violence and threats delivered through his fresh Gestapo-like forces. In Shadows of the Horde too Vol'jin mentions how Garrosh tried to use the "whipcrack" to overcome his own fears and doubts while never being truly successful on that.

I had no idea what Whipcrack stand for, and i checked it out....

Thank god i was alone in the room

[Combatbutler]

Pretty much, which became blatant in Tides of War, with Garrosh basically trying to compensate his shortcomings as leader with violence and threats delivered through his fresh Gestapo-like forces. In Shadows of the Horde too Vol'jin mentions how Garrosh tried to use the "whipcrack" to overcome his own fears and doubts while never being truly successful on that.

The most amusing thing is that Garrosh tried quite a long time to win the other leaders over, by pushing for war and using reckless tactics and it is precisely this behavior what drove them away from him.

[Zulkhan]

I had no idea what Whipcrack stand for, and i checked it out....

Thank god i was alone in the room

Basically a way to describe the practical usage of the whip.

Even though I'm not entirely sured what you checked out...lol

The most amusing thing is that Garrosh tried quite a long time to win the other leaders over, by pushing for war and using reckless tactics and it is precisely this behavior what drove them away from him.

Indeed and that's because he was absolutely convinced that his great campaigns would have brought great things for everyone to witness, a conviction that never met reality however and that's why it gradually led people away from him, even (most) of his own people eventually.

The moment Garrosh kept going his way despite 90% of the Horde turning against him is the clear point where he definitely lost his grasp over reality and his very self in his own dreamworld (even Lor'themar called Garrosh "unhinged").

[Friendlyimmolation]

Zulkhan you philistine, your inbox is full.

[Zulkhan]

Zulkhan you philistine, your inbox is full.

Lies and slander.

I mean, it's fine now.

[Friendlyimmolation]

You are fake news

I mean, it's fine now.

fixed it for you.