Final Fantasy XIV: Stormblood

[Kazgrel]

My tentative plan is to go BLM first to 70, then gatherers and crafters, followed by tank/healer job. I foresee BLM being my permanent main job here, unless they do something drastic to it that I don't like.

[Sorrior]

Keep in mind rdm is a ranged dps and will probably spend more time at range casting and less time in melee.

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A sword! Red mage isn1 part white mage, one part black mage and one part fighter! People forget that last part sometimes.

Why I want a Magic Knight class melee with magic sooo war meets Blm

[Florena]

Why I want a Magic Knight class melee with magic sooo war meets Blm

I don't expect to get it but would love a mystic knight/rune knight type tank.

[Wrecktangle]

I think it's going to be the scrapping of the current cross class system and instead things like:

Every tank gets provoke naturally.
Every healer gets cleric stance and protect on their own.
Every melee gets invigorate and blood for blood.
Every caster gets swift cast.

Things like that.

I think that's the route they're going to go too.

Homogenization is good as long as the core mechanic feels different while playing.

One thing I'd like to add though, if we're going to do this with cleric and protect, I could argue that shouldn't we just remove protect or bake it in? As it stands now its a fire and forget AOE buff. That's neither compelling nor exciting. I'd rather see it as a healer external cooldown (because protect is very iconic from a FF perspective and seeing it gone or just meaningless is disheartening.

i'd almost posit at this point the clunkyness of switching stances needs to go. While it does add complexity, I'd almost rather see it gone and just allow a healer to DPS and heal freely as the situation calls for it with the mitigating factor being MP, not stances.

[StrawberryZebra]

I think that's the route they're going to go too.

Homogenization is good as long as the core mechanic feels different while playing.

One thing I'd like to add though, if we're going to do this with cleric and protect, I could argue that shouldn't we just remove protect or bake it in? As it stands now its a fire and forget AOE buff. That's neither compelling nor exciting. I'd rather see it as a healer external cooldown (because protect is very iconic from a FF perspective and seeing it gone or just meaningless is disheartening.

i'd almost posit at this point the clunkyness of switching stances needs to go. While it does add complexity, I'd almost rather see it gone and just allow a healer to DPS and heal freely as the situation calls for it with the mitigating factor being MP, not stances.

I think Protect would be great as a White Mage specific group cooldown that gave massive damage resistance for a couple of seconds. Give groups a reason to want them over the other healers. That is assuming it's not so powerful that for every fight with raid damage you stack your raid with White Mages of course.

On the other hand, I don't think just baking Cleric Stance in would really help matters much. In it's current form it forces you to make a choice when to DPS and when to heal, if you remove it you could end up with the situation where your Scholar is doing great healing and solid DPS without any penalty whatsoever. Without any real risk of getting it wrong then it feels less like you're making smart decisions and playing well and are just doing what everyone else does.

I also like that it encourages healers to DPS when they get the opportunity too. I see far too many just stood around waiting for things to happen when no one needs healing and that is a play habit I'd love to see broken.

While we're talking Cleric Stance, adding in the 5% extra hit chance that Tanking Stances get would go a long way too. Missing an Energy Drain just feels awful. Making all stances be actual Stances, where they flip your hotbar, would be much appreciated too. Though I'm not holding out much hope for that one.

[Faroth]

Still unsure what to do. Remain NIN, change to SAM.. While at the same time im enjoying DRK. Ugh. Choices.

I'm in the same boat for DPS choice. Probably stick with NIN for MSQ and get Samurai up later since I don't want to get the 50-60 work done while there's delicious MSQ to be had.

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i'd almost posit at this point the clunkyness of switching stances needs to go. While it does add complexity, I'd almost rather see it gone and just allow a healer to DPS and heal freely as the situation calls for it with the mitigating factor being MP, not stances.

From a "feel like Final Fantasy" perspective there's an argument to be made for this as "stances" weren't really a thing in the past, though I do agree with Strawberry's counter points as well.

Of course, even attack spells were like wet noodles for healers traditionally, so there's that.

Then again, as a ninja, I can't OP savage raiding by stealing the weapons from you guys and THROWING THEM AT THE BOSS' FACE! :3

[Sorrior]

I don't expect to get it but would love a mystic knight/rune knight type tank.

Tank or dps we need a non drk melee caster.

[Graeham]

MCH is my current main but I plan to switch to SAM. Before that, though, I plan to go through the 4.0 MSQ's as a PLD for the sake of quicker queues. I want to avoid spoilers as much as possible so I shall be tackling the MSQ's first to soak up all the new story stuff whilst enjoying all the interesting things to be found and seen in the new zones.

Once I complete the MSQ's I intend to make use of PLD for roulettes - since it's a pretty efficient way to make gil and secure tomes - and also work on getting SAM to 70. I have a feeling that I'll enjoy SAM since I've been waiting for a sword using melee DPS for quite some time.

[Deleted]

Hello there, what do we currently know about SAM job? Will it be tank or dps?

I'm attracted to return and play SAM...

[Florena]

Hello there, what do we currently know about SAM job? Will it be tank or dps?

I'm attracted to return and play SAM...

Melee dps. Shares gear with monk. Will have a system somewhat similar to monk stances but not identical. Beyond thatbwe don't have specifics. It's a robed samurai notnan armores one.

[Veluren]

Melee dps. Shares gear with monk. Will have a system somewhat similar to monk stances but not identical. Beyond thatbwe don't have specifics. It's a robed samurai notnan armores one.

The way they described it, albeit this is making a statement out of VERY vague words, is that they'll have the basic combo string like most melee, but their bread and butter will be a "charger" attack

If you've played the older games, think of the Samurai from FFV or Cyan from FFVI and how their Bushido skills worked, how long you waited to release determined what attack it is

[Kyriani]

WHM is what I'll level first to 70. Gathering jobs will follow with Crafting jobs leveling passively via GC turn ins mostly, and collectibles when I have mats available. I am holding out hope that Red Mage is something I'll like though. I'd like at least one dps job to be enjoyable to me.

Being a fan of casters in general, but not having any love for any of the dps jobs in FFXIV (caster or not), I've mainly stuck with healers. I am hoping that Red Mage will be a dps job I can enjoy. But my guess is I probably won't, because if I do, many people will not.

I find all the dps jobs currently in game just too complex to be fun for me. Whether its combos, positionals, "awesome ability that can only be used while under the effects of a buff from another ability", or just in general too many finger gymnastics required, for one reason or another I don't find any of the dps jobs fun to play. If I wanna enjoy dealing damange, healers are my only option currently. They are the only "simple" way to dps. Toss up dots, spam your nuke, maybe use a cooldown where applicable. Nothing too complex to deal with.

I'm pretty sure though, if RDM ended up being that simple to play, there'd be a lot of backlash for it. I just wish there was at least one "simple" dps job I could enjoy playing, and I'm not really expecting the combat revamp to do anything dramatic to change things. Still RDM will likely be leveled before SAM (once my WHM is 70).

[Wrecktangle]

On the other hand, I don't think just baking Cleric Stance in would really help matters much. In it's current form it forces you to make a choice when to DPS and when to heal, if you remove it you could end up with the situation where your Scholar is doing great healing and solid DPS without any penalty whatsoever. Without any real risk of getting it wrong then it feels less like you're making smart decisions and playing well and are just doing what everyone else does.

I completely agree that it forces a choice. Removing it and baking it in wouldn't change that. You would still have to make a choice as to whether you wanted to press a DPS button or a healing button or wait. The penalty is still there for all 3 options as is the cost. Making the penalty of that scenario more forgiving is not a bad thing. If we're being candid here, your SCH is already doing great healing and solid DPS with no penalty. You're simply making it less of a hassle for him to do it. You'd still be able to tell a good one from a bad one any day of the week (assuming you're running ACT), if not you'd never know anyway.

Let me ask you (and other healers this). Would you prefer to push a clunky button to be able to DPS/Heal (with associated risks) or would you prefer to be able to make the decision with much more responsiveness and less punishing errors? You still keep the complexity of the original iteration alive, but you remove some of the archaic limitations.

I fail to see any merit of the original iteration over the proposed. Just because something is more punishing doesn't make it more fun or a better implementation. Also please don't confuse punishing for difficult. They are not the same.

I also like that it encourages healers to DPS when they get the opportunity too. I see far too many just stood around waiting for things to happen when no one needs healing and that is a play habit I'd love to see broken.

While we're talking Cleric Stance, adding in the 5% extra hit chance that Tanking Stances get would go a long way too. Missing an Energy Drain just feels awful. Making all stances be actual Stances, where they flip your hotbar, would be much appreciated too. Though I'm not holding out much hope for that one.

My iteration of cleric stance would also encourage healer to DPS when they get the opportunity too as well. In fact i'd even go as far as to argue more healers would do it because less risk associated and more fluidity to the process.

I agree that either hit needs to go (it does) or they need to bake it into their gear, a trait, or the spells.

[Faroth]

Isn't one of the aspects of the stance swap being you can't be doing maximized healing power when you're in DPS mode and you're not DPS power when you're in healing mode?

By removing that aren't you just putting them at their full power in both with no penalty other than the push of a button? Wouldn't baking it in just make them even more of a DPS/Healing hybrid, transforming all healers into more traditional Red Mages (minus the sword)?

Hybrids tend to get sticky. I assumed the stances removed some of that stickiness.

[StrawberryZebra]

I completely agree that it forces a choice. Removing it and baking it in wouldn't change that.

In theory, yes. In practice that goes out the window the second you consider Instant spells. Being able to throw out spells like Lustrate while also putting out maximum DPS is a balacing nightmare waiting to happen.

Let me ask you (and other healers this). Would you prefer to push a clunky button to be able to DPS/Heal (with associated risks) or would you prefer to be able to make the decision with much more responsiveness and less punishing errors? You still keep the complexity of the original iteration alive, but you remove some of the archaic limitations.

I fail to see any merit of the original iteration over the proposed. Just because something is more punishing doesn't make it more fun or a better implementation. Also please don't confuse punishing for difficult. They are not the same.

I wouldn't consider the current version of Cleric stance punishing, as such. Reduced healing for 5 seconds isn't the end of the world if you time it badly, but getting it consistently wrong will result in a wipe. It does add some weight to the decision rather it being a straight case of "What do I use this GCD on?" Having to commit to casting at least two damaging spells means you've got to wait until you have the opportunity to use it.

Admitedly Cleric Stance isn't the smoothest way to handle it, but having an "I am DPS now" toggle works well enough. It doesn't really add much to the difficulty but it does at least offer some way for the better healers to distinguish themselves. I agree that it could be handled in a much more intuitive way, but as to what that would be ... Well, I'm not really sure.

Hybrids tend to get sticky. I assumed the stances removed some of that stickiness.

This is almost certainly why it's there. It's an important safety valve to stop healers getting completely out of control. I assume it's main design was to allow healers to function in solo play without being completely crippled, but it's ended up being a way to Min/Max your performance despite that.

[Deleted]

Melee dps. Shares gear with monk. Will have a system somewhat similar to monk stances but not identical. Beyond thatbwe don't have specifics. It's a robed samurai notnan armores one.

Thank you kindly.

If it's confirmed a DPS I'll probably play it!

[Traum3n]

Thank you kindly.

If it's confirmed a DPS I'll probably play it!

it is confirmed as a melee dps, we just don't know the specifics of how the class will play other than it has a kind of stance-play similar to monk but not quite the same (yeah they were that vague)

[Wrecktangle]

Isn't one of the aspects of the stance swap being you can't be doing maximized healing power when you're in DPS mode and you're not DPS power when you're in healing mode?

By removing that aren't you just putting them at their full power in both with no penalty other than the push of a button? Wouldn't baking it in just make them even more of a DPS/Healing hybrid, transforming all healers into more traditional Red Mages (minus the sword)?

Hybrids tend to get sticky. I assumed the stances removed some of that stickiness.

Correct - that is the reason for cleric stance. The question I'm posing is whether or not that is of any fun to deal with. The current penalties for cleric stance is time (push of a button/GCD), MP (could go OOM before end of fight), and being locked out from switching for up to 6s with either reduced DPS or HPS.

The point I am trying to advocate is that I don't think the complexity of cleric stance warrants an extra button push nor do I think it feels fun to push a button back and forth to switch stances and be devastatingly punished if you make a mistake with that. Something like that should be organic, not a hard limitation. You could have a mechanic where casting a healing spell increases your next dps spell's damage by x% or makes your next DPS spell cost x% less mana, etc or vice versa.

I don't think this makes them "more" of a DPS/healing hybrid. They're already way over there, This is strictly about making the effect of cleric stance less punishing to your average player and more fun to navigate the DPS/HPS wave.

In theory, yes. In practice that goes out the window the second you consider Instant spells. Being able to throw out spells like Lustrate while also putting out maximum DPS is a balacing nightmare waiting to happen.

Instant spells have other mitigating factors to offset their power. I.e. cooldown, MP Cost, etc. Now if there is a free MP, instant cast, and no cooldown heal, I'm all ears, but last I checked something like that doesn't exist. Alternatively, you could argue that is the SCH niche, whereas the AST niche would be buffing other players to do more DPS, and the WHM's niche could be something else.

I wouldn't consider the current version of Cleric stance punishing, as such. Reduced healing for 5 seconds isn't the end of the world if you time it badly, but getting it consistently wrong will result in a wipe. It does add some weight to the decision rather it being a straight case of "What do I use this GCD on?" Having to commit to casting at least two damaging spells means you've got to wait until you have the opportunity to use it.

Admitedly Cleric Stance isn't the smoothest way to handle it, but having an "I am DPS now" toggle works well enough. It doesn't really add much to the difficulty but it does at least offer some way for the better healers to distinguish themselves. I agree that it could be handled in a much more intuitive way, but as to what that would be ... Well, I'm not really sure.

In Savage if you fuck up a cleric stance, you restart the fight. I've seen it happen quite a bit when pushing hard content in this game. Sometimes your other healer can save your mistake, but more often than not you lose somebody to it.

See my example to Faroth. I think that's a solid suggestion worth building off of. You basically confirmed my entire argument by saying it isn't the smoothest way to handle it. That's synonymous to saying its clunky and not fun. That's the entire premise of my post. I'm arguing it's worth a prune and fix to make more interactive.

[Kazgrel]

It will be interesting to see how they handle Cleric Stance going forward. To remove it completely would then allow/require MND to increase the damage of healers, since having them not scale at all would be...well, terrible. The other thing, as brought up, would be insta-cast heals. WHM has Benediction, but that's a 5 min CD (also queue the QQ about it not being "instant") along with Regen. Oh, and Tetra, but again, that's on a CD. I haven't played AST or SCH in months now, although I know they both have their own insta-cast heals (the AST one that applies regen/shield comes to mind).

I do agree that it is a bit clunky (I've more than once had someone die because I "thought" had had turned the dumb stance off and it didn't register). Removing it outright and baking it in (for PVE) would be incredibly convenient, but I don't think they will go that route because then every dps spell has to be re-tuned for pvp.

[Scufflegrit]

Correct - that is the reason for cleric stance. The question I'm posing is whether or not that is of any fun to deal with. The current penalties for cleric stance is time (push of a button/GCD), MP (could go OOM before end of fight), and being locked out from switching for up to 6s with either reduced DPS or HPS.

Cleric Stance is OGCD and can be toggled while casting other spells so there are no GCD issues.
The only minor affect it has on MP is a slightly lowered potency on healing/damaging spells depending on it being on or off respectively meaning you'd have to maybe cast another spell to "catch up" so to speak, which would result in slightly lower MP efficiency. If someone is somehow so bad at managing CS as to end up draining all their MP well before the end of the fight - which realistically I just don't see that happening in any conceivable way - then I dunno what to tell you other than this overall discussion isn't about that person anyway. Because they're simply that bad of a player. There are ways you can go out of MP in a fight, but Cleric Stance isn't one of them.

The point I am trying to advocate is that I don't think the complexity of cleric stance warrants an extra button push nor do I think it feels fun to push a button back and forth to switch stances and be devastatingly punished if you make a mistake with that. Something like that should be organic, not a hard limitation. You could have a mechanic where casting a healing spell increases your next dps spell's damage by x% or makes your next DPS spell cost x% less mana, etc or vice versa.
I don't think this makes them "more" of a DPS/healing hybrid. They're already way over there, This is strictly about making the effect of cleric stance less punishing to your average player and more fun to navigate the DPS/HPS wave.

Honestly that sounds more complex to me, not less. You could potentially make the argument that something like you suggest would make healing more engaging to some players, but I don't see it being easier for the average player. And really, if they aren't going to take advantage of CS, they wouldn't take advantage of any other system either. Some people are just going to stand there and only heal. Or there may be some who think "I just cast a heal, so now I am required to DPS, then I have to heal again, then DPS again..." which is arguably worse than someone just standing there are healing.

See my example to Faroth. I think that's a solid suggestion worth building off of. You basically confirmed my entire argument by saying it isn't the smoothest way to handle it. That's synonymous to saying its clunky and not fun. That's the entire premise of my post. I'm arguing it's worth a prune and fix to make more interactive.

Saying something isn't the smoothest is synonymous with neither saying it's clunky nor saying it's not fun. Because both of those are entirely subjective. And your overall argument seems to be one of assumptions based in ignorance, because as you stated in another post:

I will never level any of the Healers

Are you honestly arguing to change something you've never used long enough to give it a fair shake?