Ion: It's the Myhic guild leaders fault for burnout

[Lumineus]

He is not wrong.

People cried for content, they gave more content.

Not their fault you chose to farm it 24/7


And now the whole ToS is out on PTR lul.

It's not really that there's more content, it's that the power gain obligation from repeating the content extends well past its shelf life in replayability enthusiasm.

[Deleted]

Well... every comment agreeing with Ion is from an LFR raider who has zero clue what they're talking about. That has become abundantly clear from this thread.

What an ignorant and rather arrogant thing to say. I think you might as well ask a moderator to close this thread if that's your conclusion from 79 pages of posts as nothing anyone says will get through to you.

[Deleted]

What an ignorant and rather arrogant thing to say. I think you might as well ask a moderator to close this thread if that's your conclusion from 79 pages of posts as nothing anyone says will get through to you.

Can't wait until that sort of laughable undeserved elitism disappears with the last few pricks burning out and leaving.

[Deleted]

It's time to put the whiners on separate servers with BiS items in all slots and a maxed Artifact weapon for every char and spec they have, so they don't have to play anymore and can just race for world 600th Mythic raiding guild. They obviously want to be the best without putting in the effort, and since that clashes with the majority of the players who do want some content, they should just get their own servers to do on whatever makes their e-peen grow.

[IceMan1763]

It's time to put the whiners on separate servers with BiS items in all slots and a maxed Artifact weapon for every char and spec they have, so they don't have to play anymore and can just race for world 600th Mythic raiding guild. They obviously want to be the best without putting in the effort, and since that clashes with the majority of the players who do want some content, they should just get their own servers to do on whatever makes their e-peen grow.

Because asking for reasonable and, until this xpac, commonplace changes like a cap on AP means mythic raiders don't want to "put in the effort".

[Deleted]

Because asking for reasonable and, until this xpac, commonplace changes like a cap on AP means mythic raiders don't want to "put in the effort".

Yup. There was always a lot of 'grinding' involved to raid endgame and people who wanted to be the best, jumped through all the hoops (tubers, res gear, pots and flasks, soul shards and later dailies, badges, points, etc.) and now whiners think AP is 'too much work'. If you don't want to do what it takes, then don't whine about not being world first. There is no need at all to clear Mythic in the first week, you'll have months and months of time to do it and by then you have 54 points or don't need it (due to gear, nerfs or skill).

There is a cap btw. It's called '54 points'. And in 7.2 it's being expanded.

[ButterBeast]

Kinda entertaining considering you got triggered enough by a post to comment multiple times in a thread without contributing anything at all

just can't let go huh, also Unironically saying triggered.

[IceMan1763]

Yup. There was always a lot of 'grinding' involved to raid endgame and people who wanted to be the best, jumped through all the hoops (tubers, res gear, pots and flasks, soul shards and later dailies, badges, points, etc.) and now whiners think AP is 'too much work'. If you don't want to do what it takes, then don't whine about not being world first. There is no need at all to clear Mythic in the first week, you'll have months and months of time to do it and by then you have 54 points or don't need it (due to gear, nerfs or skill).

There is a cap btw. It's called '54 points'. And in 7.2 it's being expanded.

Do you think this system would've been popular if the full details were revealed when it was announced?

Blizz: We have this AWESOME new system for continuous progression where you get to grind your butt off for 34 points of either completely uninteresting traits or ones that should be built into the base spec, then you GET TO GRIND EVEN MORE for something we decided 6 years ago was uninteresting... flat damage and health increases. OH, and we will tune around 10+ hours of play per day in Mythic so if you can't meet that pace you get to wipe until you can finally reach that threshhold. THEN we're going to admit we fucked the system up, take the last 20ish Traits back, and implement another TOTALLY NEW GRIND for you to do. This time, you get to grind for a totally boring, uninspired RNG based proc to your main stat. What do you guys think of that feature? Isn't it AWESOME?

Crowd: [Silent as jaws hit the floor]

[Crixes1]

Id be burnt out too if my GL had such a ridiculous schedule, yet alone the amount of recruiting they have to do to keep raiding at that pace.

[rda]

There is a cap btw. It's called '54 points'. And in 7.2 it's being expanded.

There is a cap that keeps going further and further. That's what you do when you want people to buy into doing an essentially infinite grind easier - you put "caps" that are far enough away from the player to have them grind, but still reachable to convince them that the grind is "not so bad". The most important step is the first - once someone got to the first "cap" (which is not really a cap), convincing him that he now has to go to the second "cap" (which is not really a cap either) is easier, the player will do half of the convincing himself.

[Deleted]

There is a cap that keeps going further and further. That's what you do when you want people to buy into doing an essentially infinite grind easier - you put "caps" that are far enough away from the player to have them grind, but still reachable to convince them that the grind is "not so bad". The most important step is the first - once someone got to the first "cap" (which is not really a cap), convincing him that he now has to go to the second "cap" (which is not really a cap either) is easier, the player will do half of the convincing himself.

Damn evil blizzardoids!

[rda]

Damn evil blizzardoids!

Yes, you got that right.

[Deleted]

Yes, you got that right.

Thankfully though, playerbase is in decline. We can clearly see that by looking at how many people "killed the easiest boss of the first raid tier", can't we rda?

[IceMan1763]

Thankfully though, playerbase is in decline. We can clearly see that by looking at how many people "killed the easiest boss of the first raid tier", can't we rda?

Well Wowprogress does show a large decline in the number of active guilds. Warcraft Census shows that active players are already close to end of WOD numbers. TOS will certainly bring a spike, but I would bet big money that active players will be below end of WOD numbers by the 1 year launch anniversary.

[Ipsissimus]

Yup. There was always a lot of 'grinding' involved to raid endgame and people who wanted to be the best, jumped through all the hoops (tubers, res gear, pots and flasks, soul shards and later dailies, badges, points, etc.) and now whiners think AP is 'too much work'. If you don't want to do what it takes, then don't whine about not being world first. There is no need at all to clear Mythic in the first week, you'll have months and months of time to do it and by then you have 54 points or don't need it (due to gear, nerfs or skill).

There is a cap btw. It's called '54 points'. And in 7.2 it's being expanded.

The cap isn't 54 points, it's 54 points in 2, potentially 3 specs. Furthermore, the cap is having the appropriate legendaries for your specs. The cap is RNGing sockets and blabla-forged items to further elevate your character's power level.

The fundamental issue that the hardcore oriented community has with Legion isn't that it's grindy per se. Yes, it is in fact grindier than any previous iteration of WoW, a game which to begin with was made with a more casual approach than the truly grindy MMORPG of yore. That is certainly an issue which should be addressed in and of itself. But I suspect that we would've managed trudging through it slightly better if we had more direct control over our character's power, rather than resorting to sacrificing virgins to the RNG gods.

It's laughable to me that there are so many posts here talking about addicts and making comparisons to olympic sports or chess, by people who do not comprehend the critical changes Legion has made to a character's progression path, and who consistently resort to attacking others about vices that they themselves indulge in to a greater extent (hint: there's plenty of us who don't play anywhere near 80 hours a week and manage progressing through the content and maintaining our characters just fine.).

Accusing the OP of not listening to the posts is justified, but the vast majority of the posts in this thread make no attempt to understand where the issues stem from. Given that this is MMO-Champion, it's par the course, so the real question is: Why is everyone so up in arms about this expansion's systems? It sure as hell isn't because they're fantastic.

[Deleted]

Well Wowprogress does show a large decline in the number of active guilds. Warcraft Census shows that active players are already close to end of WOD numbers. TOS will certainly bring a spike, but I would bet big money that active players will be below end of WOD numbers by the 1 year launch anniversary.

Unless Blizz changes policy, all we have is speculation.

[IceMan1763]

Accusing the OP of not listening to the posts is justified, but the vast majority of the posts in this thread make no attempt to understand where the issues stem from. Given that this is MMO-Champion, it's par the course, so the real question is: Why is everyone so up in arms about this expansion's systems? It sure as hell isn't because they're fantastic.

Nice post.

Perhaps accusing me of not listening is fair criticism, but I have, in fact, read every post in this thread. It's just that the conclusion I've come to is that the majority of the people siding with Ion and the Blizzard dev team do not understand high end, mythic raiding and also refuse to acknowledge the significant number of changes that make this xpac so incredibly grindy. That is a frustrating point to begin any kind of meaningful discussion from when one side says "It's always been grindy" while refusing to acknowledge that there is such a thing as level of grindiness, level of RNG, or that grinding WQs, Maw, or whatever your flavor is does not equate to skill, effort, or dedication... it's just a new and incredibly boring time sink.

That being said, I don't hate the AP system per se, but I will never get the devs insistence on creating theoretical caps when creating a simple, rolling cap system would be far easier and work far better. The knock on caps is that some people complained there was nothing to do after the cap... but aren't those the addicts these same posters are knocking? Should the cap be removed to satiate the addicted crowd? The other side of the coin is people feeling bad when they aren't at cap, but how is an uncapped system any better for that group of players? If anything, it's far worse, in my opinion.

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Unless Blizz changes policy, all we have is speculation.

No, those are numbers. Until Blizz releases sub numbers again, player created numbers are all we have.

[Deleted]

Nice post.

Perhaps accusing me of not listening is fair criticism, but I have, in fact, read every post in this thread. It's just that the conclusion I've come to is that the majority of the people siding with Ion and the Blizzard dev team do not understand high end, mythic raiding and also refuse to acknowledge the significant number of changes that make this xpac so incredibly grindy. That is a frustrating point to begin any kind of meaningful discussion from when one side says "It's always been grindy" while refusing to acknowledge that there is such a thing as level of grindiness, level of RNG, or that grinding WQs, Maw, or whatever your flavor is does not equate to skill, effort, or dedication... it's just a new and incredibly boring time sink.

That being said, I don't hate the AP system per se, but I will never get the devs insistence on creating theoretical caps when creating a simple, rolling cap system would be far easier and work far better. The knock on caps is that some people complained there was nothing to do after the cap... but aren't those the addicts these same posters are knocking? Should the cap be removed to satiate the addicted crowd? The other side of the coin is people feeling bad when they aren't at cap, but how is an uncapped system any better for that group of players? If anything, it's far worse, in my opinion.

- - - Updated - - -



No, those are numbers. Until Blizz releases sub numbers again, player created numbers are all we have.

And they're useless for a number of reasons.

[IceMan1763]

And they're useless for a number of reasons.

Only if it counters your vision of Legion being a successful xpac, which it's clearly not. If they were positive numbers, you would like them.

[rda]

And they're useless for a number of reasons.

State those reasons.

(That was just hot air, right? You just said that there are a number of reasons to appear smart.)