Sylvanas - The Lich Queen - Her only hope left?

[Friendlyimmolation]

Eyir creates Valarjar who are fighting against the Legion.

Valarjar that did jack shit up until.......7.2 They were all about as useful as the red dragons.

[Tripzzz]

What's "supposed to be about free will" even means? The fact that she doesn't rise undead to be like the mindless tools of the Lich King? Because yes, that's what Forsaken society is about. Using Eyir to invalidate the fact that such is indeed a cornerstone of Forsaken society is intrinsically misguided.



You make it sound like Sylvanas ever proclaimed to be this righteous character fighting for justice and freedom of all undead in the world. She's definitely not and never pretended to be. The only thing made clear of Sylvanas is that her own society of undead she created has free will as its cornerstone. Its members are Forsaken by choice. That's all. You see Sylvanas as "hypocrite" because you're forcing high ideals she was never supposed to have. How Sylvanas could ever be seen as an hypocrite? If she would ever force Eyir into unending servitude and make her join the ranks of the Forsaken against her will. Bring me any sort of evidence or just hints supporting or implying this and I'll be the first calling Sylvanas an hypocrite and all the "cornerstone of X and Y" a bunch of horseshit.

Are you claiming there is no hints or evidence that she planned to enslave Eyir? The cinematic straight up shows hints. Slyvanus tells Eyir to "submit" and says "the val'kyr are mine". How else do you interpret that?

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Valarjar that did jack shit up until.......7.2 They were all about as useful as the red dragons.

http://www.wowhead.com/quest=42918/demonic-runes

http://www.wowhead.com/quest=43577/c...ng-the-gateway

http://www.wowhead.com/quest=43585/preparing-for-war

http://www.wowhead.com/quest=44667/will-of-the-valarjar

The Valarjar have been planning against and fighting the Legion since the beginning of the expac.

[Friendlyimmolation]

http://www.wowhead.com/quest=42918/demonic-runes

http://www.wowhead.com/quest=43577/c...ng-the-gateway

http://www.wowhead.com/quest=43585/preparing-for-war

http://www.wowhead.com/quest=44667/will-of-the-valarjar

The Valarjar have been fighting the Legion since they beginning of the expac.

The PC warrior, without them they would be stuck in skyhold twiddling their thumbs.

[FelPlague]

Forsaken aren't mortal , if they are left alone they will last forever. If Alliance show up, they will blight bomb them, rinse and repeat.

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Because Sylvanas fucking hates the lich king? And becoming the lich king takes away all your friends? And she'd probably lose even the support of the Forsaken if she did that? Just because you keep repeating the same stuff doesn't make it a good idea.



repeating that its the only option doesnt make it so.

Look what the being the lich king did to Bolvar, sylvanas would be dead in a week if she put on the crown.

you seem to forget shes fine with becoming lichking 2.0...
"what is the difference between you and the lich king now"
"its simple warchief, i serve the horde"
"watch your clever mouth bitch"

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What's "supposed to be about free will" even means? The fact that she doesn't rise undead to be like the mindless tools of the Lich King? Because yes, that's what Forsaken society is about. Using Eyir to invalidate the fact that such is indeed a cornerstone of Forsaken society is intrinsically misguided.



You make it sound like Sylvanas ever proclaimed to be this righteous character fighting for justice and freedom of all undead in the world. She's definitely not and never pretended to be. The only thing made clear of Sylvanas is that her own society of undead she created has free will as its cornerstone. Its members are Forsaken by choice. That's all. You see Sylvanas as "hypocrite" because you're forcing high ideals she was never supposed to have. How Sylvanas could ever be seen as an hypocrite? If she would ever force Eyir into unending servitude and make her join the ranks of the Forsaken against her will. Bring me any sort of evidence or just hints supporting or implying this and I'll be the first calling Sylvanas an hypocrite and all the "cornerstone of X and Y" a bunch of horseshit.

yes she does raise undead to be mindless slaves
you seem to forget the human encampment on fenris island trying to survive against sylvanas, and you kill them, to raise them literally seconds later, and they instantly join your side

yes some have free will, and can break free... but this area here PROVES she does not
we also see it again when raising a ton of humans infront of garrosh, they instantly salute to her...
these humans secondsb efore dying were yelling "death to the banshee queen' then seconds after coming to undeath are suddenly on her side...

[Tripzzz]

The PC warrior, without them they would be stuck in skyhold twiddling their thumbs.

Yeah, and without the Valarjar and Odyn the PC warrior would be dead. Since they died on the broken shore.

[Aucald]

Valarjar that did jack shit up until.......7.2 They were all about as useful as the red dragons.

The Valarjar will probably have more screen time in the Legionfall campaign, or at least I hope so. It would go far towards explaining the Trial of Valor raid and freeing Odyn from Helya's imprisoning curse.

[Tripzzz]

you seem to forget shes fine with becoming lichking 2.0...
"what is the difference between you and the lich king now"
"its simple warchief, i serve the horde"
"watch your clever mouth bitch"

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yes she does raise undead to be mindless slaves
you seem to forget the human encampment on fenris island trying to survive against sylvanas, and you kill them, to raise them literally seconds later, and they instantly join your side

yes some have free will, and can break free... but this area here PROVES she does not
we also see it again when raising a ton of humans infront of garrosh, they instantly salute to her...
these humans secondsb efore dying were yelling "death to the banshee queen' then seconds after coming to undeath are suddenly on her side...

Yeah, but they will bring up the blue post, "there is no mind control. FREE WILL is a cornerstone of the Forsaken!!!1!!"

Here the quest text, said by Slyvanus "rotten tits" herself.

http://www.wowhead.com/quest=27097/rise-forsaken

"Fenris Isle stands defiantly at the heart of Lordamere Lake - a cruel memory of a time long since passed.

Though no longer infested by gnoll vermin, a new threat has emerged. Human refugees, driven from their holdings in Hillsbrad, have fled to Fenris Isle in hopes of escaping defeat at our hands. A critical error on their part.

You are to take Agatha with you to Fenris Isle and slaughter all humans. She will raise the fallen as Forsaken, bolstering our forces in the process.

Do not fail me, <name>."

It seems the hillsbrad refugees were offered the same "free will" that the death knights were to offer Tirion. Raise you as an undead first, then ask if it's OK.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Yeah, but they will bring up the blue post, "there is no mind control. FREE WILL is a cornerstone of the Forsaken!!!1!!"

Here the quest text, said by Slyvanus "rotten tits" herself.

http://www.wowhead.com/quest=27097/rise-forsaken

"Fenris Isle stands defiantly at the heart of Lordamere Lake - a cruel memory of a time long since passed.

Though no longer infested by gnoll vermin, a new threat has emerged. Human refugees, driven from their holdings in Hillsbrad, have fled to Fenris Isle in hopes of escaping defeat at our hands. A critical error on their part.

You are to take Agatha with you to Fenris Isle and slaughter all humans. She will raise the fallen as Forsaken, bolstering our forces in the process.

Do not fail me, <name>."

It seems the hillsbrad refugees were offered the same "free will" that the death knights were to offer Tirion. Raise you as an undead first, then ask if it's OK.

You can repeat it all you want, Blizzard says there is no mind control with the forsaken, there is no mindcontrol. What the ebon blade was going to do to tirion was not mind control either, unless they did.

Slyvanus "rotten tits"

I wonder how brilliant you think this is.

[Tripzzz]

You can repeat it all you want, Blizzard says there is no mind control with the forsaken, there is no mindcontrol. What the ebon blade was going to do to tirion was not mind control either, unless they did.




I wonder how brilliant you think this is.

Gerard Abernathy has a mind controlled slave in undercity. Just because the raised forsaken aren't mindcontrolled doesn't mean the Forsaken don't practice mindcontrol. The Forsaken exploit the death frenzy of fallen Alliance soldiers to make them kill their own allies with their own hands. Something Slyvanus cries that Arthas did to her.

[FelPlague]

Yeah, but they will bring up the blue post, "there is no mind control. FREE WILL is a cornerstone of the Forsaken!!!1!!"

Here the quest text, said by Slyvanus "rotten tits" herself.

http://www.wowhead.com/quest=27097/rise-forsaken

"Fenris Isle stands defiantly at the heart of Lordamere Lake - a cruel memory of a time long since passed.

Though no longer infested by gnoll vermin, a new threat has emerged. Human refugees, driven from their holdings in Hillsbrad, have fled to Fenris Isle in hopes of escaping defeat at our hands. A critical error on their part.

You are to take Agatha with you to Fenris Isle and slaughter all humans. She will raise the fallen as Forsaken, bolstering our forces in the process.

Do not fail me, <name>."

It seems the hillsbrad refugees were offered the same "free will" that the death knights were to offer Tirion. Raise you as an undead first, then ask if it's OK.

yeah as said in the comments of that quest
this quest bassicly confirms sylvanas is able to raise undead who have no free will... we also know they are doing horrible experiments on alliance members, forcefully turning them into undead.. .and i doubt they woudl willingly join the horde after being tortured by them....
also no, the hillsbrad refugees where not offered the same "free will" they are raised, and not asked, just raised.... and again right away they turn from "DEATH TO THE BANSHEE QUEEN" to "at your command" right away... why would these people trying to escape the undead change their mind after being murdered by them...


"Risen troopers say:
"I am Forsaken."
"At your command."
"I am eternal... I am death."
"I LIVE!"

I see it impossible to believe that there are no mind control when people that were explicitly fleeing undead onslaught and were just killed and resurrected by you immediately assume "Forsaken" identity and start serving Sylvanas instead of say, just wander around for a few days, run even farther or turn to AC?

Some even say:
"What have you done to me!"

I presume those are people who retain some control."

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You can repeat it all you want, Blizzard says there is no mind control with the forsaken, there is no mindcontrol. What the ebon blade was going to do to tirion was not mind control either, unless they did.




I wonder how brilliant you think this is.

blizzard also said "grommash will be the final boss of wartlords of draenor"
blizz is fine with lying about lore stuff if its abit jokey... or they dont want to spoil future story elements

http://www.wowhead.com/quest=27097/rise-forsaken

[Tripzzz]

yeah as said in the comments of that quest
this quest bassicly confirms sylvanas is able to raise undead who have no free will... we also know they are doing horrible experiments on alliance members, forcefully turning them into undead.. .and i doubt they woudl willingly join the horde after being tortured by them....
also no, the hillsbrad refugees where not offered the same "free will" they are raised, and not asked, just raised.... and again right away they turn from "DEATH TO THE BANSHEE QUEEN" to "at your command" right away... why would these people trying to escape the undead change their mind after being murdered by them...


"Risen troopers say:
"I am Forsaken."
"At your command."
"I am eternal... I am death."
"I LIVE!"

I see it impossible to believe that there are no mind control when people that were explicitly fleeing undead onslaught and were just killed and resurrected by you immediately assume "Forsaken" identity and start serving Sylvanas instead of say, just wander around for a few days, run even farther or turn to AC?

Some even say:
"What have you done to me!"

I presume those are people who retain some control."

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blizzard also said "grommash will be the final boss of wartlords of draenor"
blizz is fine with lying about lore stuff if its abit jokey... or they dont want to spoil future story elements

http://www.wowhead.com/quest=27097/rise-forsaken

Don't bring logic into this. You will upset the rabid Forsaken fanboys (despite in game evidence showing the Forsaken do dabble in mindcontrol.)

Infracted.

[Dartz1979]

Hey. Ally here. If this ever happens I still want to be on Sylvanas’ side and happily watch Odyn die. His whole story is beyond retarded:
As an ally you get to Stormheim and he is the first guy you meet, though you don’t really know who he is. He gives you annoying tasks and so on because of traditions and you beat all of them. Then you help him defending his halls, so you enter them in order to get that freaking shield but hey, yet again you have to fight through all of his forces. You get to the “last trial” by fighting the old kings. He gives you the Aegis but then decides: “ye well, no. fight me first pals.”
Then you need his blessing for some stupid ritual on the heart, but again you need to prove worth of his blessing, while he continuously calls you champion. After that he asks for help on taking down Helya, but before you have to prove worthy AGAIN and fight him AGAIN, like W T F? Alzheimer's?

Same for Genn. He had years to take action against Sylvanas. Yet he decided to give in to his personal vendetta at the very worst moment. Sylvanas retreating had no effect on the outcome on the Broken Shore, we or at least Varian would’ve been crushed by that fel reaver, independent on some archers standing on the edges or not. He has shown no support in the actual Stormheim campaign, all you see is Gilnean Forces going after the Forsaken.
Then you have him order to take those watch towers. Hurr kill those forsaken hurr for Gilneas! For Gilneas? why not for the Alliance?

Why do everyone and their mothers think we need to kill Jaina or Sylvanas they are both so sexy and strong and well needed.

[Friendlyimmolation]

blizzard also said "grommash will be the final boss of wartlords of draenor"
blizz is fine with lying about lore stuff if its abit jokey... or they dont want to spoil future story elements

basically your argument is now "sometimes blizzard changes stuff, therefore this thing I believe is right"

Sorry, that doesnt fly. Until Blizzard says differently, Forsaken do not use mind control

You made it obvious you never read the Blue post even, so why the hell are you complaining?

They said those raised in battle basically come back in a temporary stupor. like a drunk rage/rush, its why they turn on Alliance as they are raised etc.


So Tl'dr, its fine to believe what you want, as long as you know what you believe is not canon.

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Don't bring logic into this. You will upset the rabid Forsaken fanboys (despite in game evidence showing the Forsaken do dabble in mindcontrol.)

Point A: here, Trippz believes he knows better than Blizzard, and therefore can disregard Lore that tells him he is wrong.



For some bizzare reason I have doubts that either of you would look this up yourself so here it is again

Why do some Alliance soldiers raised by the Forsaken immediately become loyal to the Forsaken while others do not? Are they being mind controlled? If so, by whom - Sylvanas or the Val'kyr? How does this relate to the fact that the Forsaken cultural identity is based on their free will and rebellion against the Lich King?

Free will is one of the cornerstones of Forsaken culture, with the great capacity for both good and evil that it entails. However, some undead, especially those who die in combat or under extreme stress and are raised soon after, enter into a violent, frenzied state. Undead in this state are easily manipulated and their rage is often directed at the foes of those who raised them. After the effects wear off, if the risen corpse has not been destroyed, they are given the same ultimatum that other Forsaken are offered: join the Dark Lady or return to the grave.

http://wow.gamepedia.com/Ask_CDev


Scream Forsaken mind control until the sun dies. Unless Blizzard comes back and changes it, it will continue to remain fanfiction.

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Why do everyone and their mothers think we need to kill Jaina or Sylvanas they are both so sexy and strong and well needed.

You frighten me.

[Dartz1979]

basically your argument is now "sometimes blizzard changes stuff, therefore this thing I believe is right"

Sorry, that doesnt fly. Until Blizzard says differently, Forsaken do not use mind control

You made it obvious you never read the Blue post even, so why the hell are you complaining?

They said those raised in battle basically come back in a temporary stupor. like a drunk rage/rush, its why they turn on Alliance as they are raised etc.


So Tl'dr, its fine to believe what you want, as long as you know what you believe is not canon.

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Point A: here, Trippz believes he knows better than Blizzard, and therefore can disregard Lore that tells him he is wrong.



For some bizzare reason I have doubts that either of you would look this up yourself so here it is again

Why do some Alliance soldiers raised by the Forsaken immediately become loyal to the Forsaken while others do not? Are they being mind controlled? If so, by whom - Sylvanas or the Val'kyr? How does this relate to the fact that the Forsaken cultural identity is based on their free will and rebellion against the Lich King?

Free will is one of the cornerstones of Forsaken culture, with the great capacity for both good and evil that it entails. However, some undead, especially those who die in combat or under extreme stress and are raised soon after, enter into a violent, frenzied state. Undead in this state are easily manipulated and their rage is often directed at the foes of those who raised them. After the effects wear off, if the risen corpse has not been destroyed, they are given the same ultimatum that other Forsaken are offered: join the Dark Lady or return to the grave.

http://wow.gamepedia.com/Ask_CDev


Scream Forsaken mind control until the sun dies. Unless Blizzard comes back and changes it, it will continue to remain fanfiction.

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You frighten me.

I love my lore characters what can i say >.> <.<

[Friendlyimmolation]

Gerard Abernathy has a mind controlled slave in undercity. Just because the raised forsaken aren't mindcontrolled doesn't mean the Forsaken don't practice mindcontrol. The Forsaken exploit the death frenzy of fallen Alliance soldiers to make them kill their own allies with their own hands. Something Slyvanus cries that Arthas did to her.

There you go, an actual argument!

Gerard Abernathy is an obvious darker side of the Forsaken, however again, hes not mind controlling the Forsaken, and so to the Forsaken he gets a pass. Look at Warden Stillwater, his experients turned Forsaken rabid, and he was experimenting on humans, trying to kickstart the plague of undeath back into action. The forsaken executed him for this.

The Forsaken exploit the death frenzy of fallen Alliance soldiers to make them kill their own allies with their own hands. Something Slyvanus cries that Arthas did to her.

which is probably why the majority of those guys choose to not be undead. If Sylvanas kept them in undeath afterwards. Then her opinion would begin to sour with the forsaken.

[Tripzzz]

basically your argument is now "sometimes blizzard changes stuff, therefore this thing I believe is right"

Sorry, that doesnt fly. Until Blizzard says differently, Forsaken do not use mind control

You made it obvious you never read the Blue post even, so why the hell are you complaining?

They said those raised in battle basically come back in a temporary stupor. like a drunk rage/rush, its why they turn on Alliance as they are raised etc.


So Tl'dr, its fine to believe what you want, as long as you know what you believe is not canon.

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Point A: here, Trippz believes he knows better than Blizzard, and therefore can disregard Lore that tells him he is wrong.



For some bizzare reason I have doubts that either of you would look this up yourself so here it is again

Why do some Alliance soldiers raised by the Forsaken immediately become loyal to the Forsaken while others do not? Are they being mind controlled? If so, by whom - Sylvanas or the Val'kyr? How does this relate to the fact that the Forsaken cultural identity is based on their free will and rebellion against the Lich King?

Free will is one of the cornerstones of Forsaken culture, with the great capacity for both good and evil that it entails. However, some undead, especially those who die in combat or under extreme stress and are raised soon after, enter into a violent, frenzied state. Undead in this state are easily manipulated and their rage is often directed at the foes of those who raised them. After the effects wear off, if the risen corpse has not been destroyed, they are given the same ultimatum that other Forsaken are offered: join the Dark Lady or return to the grave.

http://wow.gamepedia.com/Ask_CDev


Scream Forsaken mind control until the sun dies. Unless Blizzard comes back and changes it, it will continue to remain fanfiction.

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You frighten me.

http://wow.gamepedia.com/Gerard_Abernathy

http://wow.gamepedia.com/Theresa

She is literally called Gerard's mindslave.

[Zulkhan]

Are you claiming there is no hints or evidence that she planned to enslave Eyir? The cinematic straight up shows hints. Slyvanus tells Eyir to "submit" and says "the val'kyr are mine". How else do you interpret that?

What is there to hint that Sylvanas cares to get Eyir as servant? Eyir's own statement about Sylvanas "not knowing what she was meddling with" if anything goes towards the idea that Eyir was, at best, a mean to an end.

you seem to forget shes fine with becoming lichking 2.0...
"what is the difference between you and the lich king now"
"its simple warchief, i serve the horde"
"watch your clever mouth bitch"

You don't seem to know what irreverence is.

yes she does raise undead to be mindless slaves
you seem to forget the human encampment on fenris island trying to survive against sylvanas, and you kill them, to raise them literally seconds later, and they instantly join your side

yes some have free will, and can break free... but this area here PROVES she does not
we also see it again when raising a ton of humans infront of garrosh, they instantly salute to her...
these humans secondsb efore dying were yelling "death to the banshee queen' then seconds after coming to undeath are suddenly on her side...

I love how the best argument to literally deny the WoG is not anything actually proving the existence of some mysterious mind-bending magic but simply wherever the whole process makes sense to you or not. Well flash news, it matters not if it makes sense to you or not, besides WoG Sylvanas lacks the means to mind-control the undead even if she desired that. The Val'kyr never shown these capabilities and Sylvanas is a mere banshee. The most she's able to "mind control" is a bunch of shitty skeletons raised by herself. Heck, I don't even understand how can someone call them "mindless" when they actually show to have a mind and be sentient? The mindless hordes of the Lich King can barely formulate a whole logical statement.

Someone has to give for granted that many things in the game are handled in a certain way for the sake of simplicity, as Blizzard needing to clarify things themselves quite prove since things weren't actually clear in-game. Of course lorewise undead don't instantly become Forsaken, the process is less straightforward but at the same time has been proved time and time again that such transformation nonetheless affect the person on many levels, included the psychological and emotional one, hence why many of those former humans join the Forsaken ranks like others most probably don't.

Gerard Abernathy is an obvious darker side of the Forsaken, however again, hes not mind controlling the Forsaken

And let's not forget that human slave is a literal reference to another game. Mind you, it doesn't excuse Gerard at all but just tells you the overall relevance. You can't definitely use it as "proof" that such is a common practice among the Forsaken when the very example is a freaking reference.

[Tripzzz]

There you go, an actual argument!

Gerard Abernathy is an obvious darker side of the Forsaken, however again, hes not mind controlling the Forsaken, and so to the Forsaken he gets a pass. Look at Warden Stillwater, his experients turned Forsaken rabid, and he was experimenting on humans, trying to kickstart the plague of undeath back into action. The forsaken executed him for this.



which is probably why the majority of those guys choose to not be undead. If Sylvanas kept them in undeath afterwards. Then her opinion would begin to sour with the forsaken.

Where is the evidence for that?

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What is there to hint that Sylvanas cares to get Eyir as servant? Eyir's own statement about Sylvanas "not knowing what she was meddling with" if anything goes towards the idea that Eyir was, at best, a mean to an end.



You don't seem to know what irreverence is.



I love how the best argument to literally deny the WoG is not anything actually proving the existence of some mysterious mind-bending magic but simply wherever the whole process makes sense to you or not. Well flash news, it matters not if it makes sense to you or not, besides WoG Sylvanas lacks the means to mind-control the undead even if she desired that. The Val'kyr never shown these capabilities and Sylvanas is a mere banshee. The most she's able to "mind control" is a bunch of shitty skeletons raised by herself. Heck, I don't even understand how can someone call them "mindless" when they actually show to have a mind and be sentient? The mindless hordes of the Lich King can barely formulate a whole logical statement.

Someone has to give for granted that many things in the game are handled in a certain way for the sake of simplicity, as Blizzard needing to clarify things themselves quite prove since things weren't actually clear in-game. Of course lorewise undead don't instantly become Forsaken, the process is less straightforward but at the same time has been proved time and time again that such transformation nonetheless affect the person on many levels, included the psychological and emotional one, hence why many of those former humans join the Forsaken ranks like others most probably don't.



And let's not forget that human slave is a literal reference to another game. Mind you, it doesn't excuse Gerard at all but just tells you the overall relevance. You can't definitely use it as "proof" that such is a common practice among the Forsaken when the very example is a freaking reference.

The entire Warcraft franchise is full of references, something being a reference doesn't mean it isn't canon.

[Jngizu]

basically your argument is now "sometimes blizzard changes stuff, therefore this thing I believe is right"

Sorry, that doesnt fly. Until Blizzard says differently, Forsaken do not use mind control

You made it obvious you never read the Blue post even, so why the hell are you complaining?

Not picking a side here, but let's be honest, Blizzard is not the most consistent when it comes to the lore. Not to mention things they just simply reckon (hey Illidan). They gave you proof of Forsaken using mind-control in the game. Your counter-argument is a blue post. Both were made by Blizzard, which one has the final say? In this case, it's pretty obvious both side decide to go with what fits their argument.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Where is the evidence for that?

Right next to the evidence that says most of them choose to be forsaken.

Following a average train of thought, the average guy isnt going to stick around with the dudes that merc'd him.

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Not picking a side here, but let's be honest, Blizzard is not the most consistent when it comes to the lore. Not to mention things they just simply reckon (hey Illidan). They gave you proof of Forsaken using mind-control in the game. Your counter-argument is a blue post. Both were made by Blizzard, which one has the final say? In this case, it's pretty obvious both side decide to go with what fits their argument.

Except they didn't show any proof of mindcontrol, and once again the bluepost explains it. Just because they interpret something as mind control, does not make it mind control.

Not to mention This is from 2012, the quests were from 2010. Even if the quests were with mindcontrol (they were not, as explained in askcdev) the bluepost would retcon it. New lore always trumps the old lore. If Blizzard comes out tomorrow and says "hey the val'kyr did mind control them in plaugelands and Silverpine etc" Then People that have been making this argument since Cata, would now finally be right, until then.