Europe starts to think the unthinkable: breaking up

[Quincey]

Overhyped rubbish.
im against the european union, but thats because my country is footing the bill for development for countries that should have never joined the union to begin with, and despite the heavy funding are refusing to cooperate (i.e. Hungary still not helping with the immigration crisis). Oh and its a big paper heavy money wasting monster at this point, things like The 2 headquarters alone are an absolute joke.

At the same time im pro europe however, european integration is the way forward, but only with culturally equal countries, so basically a lot smaller.

Anyway prepare for the e-union zealots, here they come.

This pretty much covers it.

I don't think anyone would argue that open borders, freedom to travel, trade and military cooperation are bad things. They are clearly the way forward.

BUT

The bureaucracy has just gotten to the point of ridiculous. The amount of money wasted on completely pointless things is almost criminal. It needs tearing down and starting new, with much more power, money and responsibility denoted back to individual countries/governments.

[yetgdhfgh]

Gnargh, so much ignorance... Nobody needs to stop Germany from "doing so", whatever that is. Mostly, because Germany has no interest in "doing so". We're busy with ourselves and the rest of the time we're mediating between European friends who have silly disputes, while nudging the European politics into something resembling a working state of affairs while trying to respect everyone's wishes. Even those of some fucking backwater region in Belgium nobody ever heard of before they started to revolt.

We're also not the guardians of the Euro, the ECB is. Germany has about much say in the ECB's dealings as Malta does, which is pretty much jack shit, outside of the political system set up to guide the ECB's decisions.

I'm not even going to comment on the last bit... I don't care if you cling to your empire glory, it doesn't even have a relevance to the topic of the EU falling apart or Germany not dominating. If you need to tell yourself that it's the might of the British Empire that keeps Germany from... "doing so", go ahead and ease your minority complex with it. I don't care.

Well it doesnt matter what you think does it cause we brits are leaving and have fun having the rest of Europe suck you dry!

And if you dont think you aint the guardians of the euro then i bet when merkel takes a fart the euro goes down a few points jeez.

But who cares the European project is done for and the forth Reich is finished!!!

[Fuiking]

Every referendum on anything europe related since 2005. Has been negative. A majority wants to leave but were being 'taken hostage' by the political elite. i guess till the heavily eu funded education/ indoctrination programs kick in. ( http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ion-fairs.html )

The amount of times I actually try to lecture ''LETS LEAVE THE EU!!!11!!!!11!!'' sayers in my circle in the netherlands is uncountable. I tried to lecture why it would be a bad thing to leave the EU for whatever reason by using common sense. One of those things was telling them to get over there VoC mentality and faded fame and glory, in short words: We are irrelevant alone. And what would Germany do if we left? They wouldnt allow us any good trade deals, they actually can embargo us if they really felt like it. Not only that; the UK might be somewhat friendly but the USA as it stands now wouldnt be so friendly and thus not resulting in any decent trade deals, before you wildly claim it doesnt matteR: we are an import/export country.

About the Referendums: I think its because the elite blindsided our worries about the EURO back in the days, if I can remember correctly a number of proffesors and the likes actually wanted failsafe mechanics for the moment Greece (when Greece joined the EU there were some who forwarned about the bad days ahead with Greeks Shennigans) would topple. But them elites never listened and that breeds contempt and distrust.

[Slant]

That is not true though, as shown by comments from senior EU officials that the answer to problems people have with the EU being too powerful, is more EU.

Proposals for an EU Army show there is a desire for ever closer union, as that would require a united foreign policy, not just common ground on foreign matters.

We (and Britain) have had the idea of a common foreign policy for quite a while. That's why the EU has a secretary for foreign affairs. Had one for well over a decade now. The EU army is pretty much a direct response to the immigration crisis and recent talk about abandoning NATO by the US allies.

Let's not kid ourselves, the direction of the EU is going towards a pan-European political entity that can be called a nation. But that won't happen for a very long time and until there is the broad, popular desire to make the EU into a nation. Until then, it will stay in its very own limbo state between being a mere collection of treaties and a nation. Supranational entity is the correct legal term for it these days, I believe.

That the EU comes closer together after Britain announced it's will to leave is just a natural counter reaction to all the bullshit talk of Farage et all. When he keeps telling the EU that they'll fail, what do you think their reaction should be? "Oh, guess he's right!" and start packing? Seriously... in which world is that the first thing that comes to mind? Nah, the natural reaction is "guess we'll show that arrogant bastard" and prove him wrong.

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This pretty much covers it.

I don't think anyone would argue that open borders, freedom to travel, trade and military cooperation are bad things. They are clearly the way forward.

BUT

The bureaucracy has just gotten to the point of ridiculous. The amount of money wasted on completely pointless things is almost criminal. It needs tearing down and starting new, with much more power, money and responsibility denoted back to individual countries/governments.

The EU bureaucracy is smaller and costs less money than most national bureaucracies. Any other myths you'd like to rehash that have been debunked on this forum dozens of times already?

[Fuiking]

We (and Britain) have had the idea of a common foreign policy for quite a while. That's why the EU has a secretary for foreign affairs. Had one for well over a decade now. The EU army is pretty much a direct response to the immigration crisis and recent talk about abandoning NATO by the US allies.

Let's not kid ourselves, the direction of the EU is going towards a pan-European political entity that can be called a nation. But that won't happen for a very long time and until there is the broad, popular desire to make the EU into a nation. Until then, it will stay in its very own limbo state between being a mere collection of treaties and a nation. Supranational entity is the correct legal term for it these days, I believe.

That the EU comes closer together after Britain announced it's will to leave is just a natural counter reaction to all the bullshit talk of Farage et all. When he keeps telling the EU that they'll fail, what do you think their reaction should be? "Oh, guess he's right!" and start packing? Seriously... in which world is that the first thing that comes to mind? Nah, the natural reaction is "guess we'll show that arrogant bastard" and prove him wrong.

Quite true, if you go ''lets pack up things and leave'' you already lost.

btw why brussels and strassbourg? you know why they use those 2 places?

[Slant]

Well it doesnt matter what you think does it cause we brits are leaving and have fun having the rest of Europe suck you dry!

And if you dont think you aint the guardians of the euro then i bet when merkel takes a fart the euro goes down a few points jeez.

But who cares the European project is done for and the forth Reich is finished!!!

Dude, you keep justifying the Brits leaving or... convincing me that it's about to happen. Let me assure you, it is old news. I know they're leaving, I'm happy with it. You can stop the emotional hyperbole and just respond to the points I'm making. But your last sentence reveals your true point, doesn't it? Just another British fart wanting to insult a German because he's bored out of his mind and there's few things Brits love to talk more about than nazi Germany and how they stuck it to them. Well, good job, lad! You're a true hero! Now scuttle and fuck off out of the EU so we can have adults running things...

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Quite true, if you go ''lets pack up things and leave'' you already lost.

btw why brussels and strassbourg? you know why they use those 2 places?

It's been my assumption that there are a few things speaking for those locations. Strassbourg has always been a major contention between Germany and France, so putting the common interest of the original treaties, which were mainly between France and Germany (coal and steel) into a city that represented the entire problem between France and Germany is very symbolic in actually creating a long lasting peace between nations that have battled each other over that region for centuries. Brussels I'd assume is just a safe and neutral location right in the middle of the original countries, being Germany, France and the Benelux states that have joined the whole adventure right from the beginning. When I think of the EU core, I think of that area. Germany, France and Benelux.

I am happy to be educated about the actual reasons, though, so go ahead... you've peaked my curiosity.

[Deleted]

The EU bureaucracy is smaller and costs less money than most national bureaucracies. Any other myths you'd like to rehash that have been debunked on this forum dozens of times already?

It's a additional, completely redundant layer of bureaucracy, part of which travels between Brussels and Strasbourg for the sheer unaldulterated fun of it. That's like saying 'Look the The Ministry of Silly Walks gets less money than Defense.'

[Fuiking]

I dont know either, thought you might know. But i do like your reasoning, tbh, i would have picked Geneve for neutral terrority.

[Slant]

I dont know either, thought you might know. But i do like your reasoning, tbh, i would have picked Geneve for neutral terrority.

Most people would. Trouble is, Geneva, being in Switzerland, is notoriously neutral to a point where you can't use them for anything but the most global stuff (war conventions and the like) or politically irrelevant stuff (sport organisations and such).

[Fuiking]

Damn swiss all the time. so long they dont pick Amsterdam its all good (god i love that writer who compared Amsterdam to Hell)

[Slant]

It's a additional, completely redundant layer of bureaucracy, part of which travels between Brussels and Strasbourg for the sheer unaldulterated fun of it. That's like saying 'Look the The Ministry of Silly Walks gets less money than Defense.'

This just shows that you have zero clue about what the EU brings to you and why bureaucracy exists. You'll find out on your next vacation when you can just call home without any extra roaming charges. But then, I don't suppose you'll even realise you have the EU to thank for that.

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Damn swiss all the time. so long they dont pick Amsterdam its all good (god i love that writer who compared Amsterdam to Hell)

Personally, I think we should just take the state of Luxembourg and turn it into one giant European capital. They might barely fit everything they need in the borders of that country. And for some reason, I like Luxembourg. Small as a city, but damned if they won't stay independant.

Edit: I brainfarted, they already have a lot of stuff there, but I actually meant they should put everything in there.

[Fuiking]

Slant, maybe they took 2 places so that there was a possibility some cohesion remained if the cold war would become hot? I mean Strassbourg is in France and they followed a nuclear deterrent route.. so maybe thats why?

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This just shows that you have zero clue about what the EU brings to you and why bureaucracy exists. You'll find out on your next vacation when you can just call home without any extra roaming charges. But then, I don't suppose you'll even realise you have the EU to thank for that.

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Personally, I think we should just take the state of Luxembourg and turn it into one giant European capital. They might barely fit everything they need in the borders of that country. And for some reason, I like Luxembourg. Small as a city, but damned if they won't stay independant.

Luxembourg City what would we call it? SoC?

[Kalis]

We (and Britain) have had the idea of a common foreign policy for quite a while. That's why the EU has a secretary for foreign affairs. Had one for well over a decade now. The EU army is pretty much a direct response to the immigration crisis and recent talk about abandoning NATO by the US allies.

You are mixing up finding common ground over foreign affairs on certain matters, with a common foreign policy, they aren't the same thing, though there is overlap.

Let's not kid ourselves, the direction of the EU is going towards a pan-European political entity that can be called a nation. But that won't happen for a very long time and until there is the broad, popular desire to make the EU into a nation. Until then, it will stay in its very own limbo state between being a mere collection of treaties and a nation. Supranational entity is the correct legal term for it these days, I believe.

That person made the claim that the EU is heading toward a 'United federation of Europe', which you rubbished and now you are acknowledging that is the goal.

That the EU comes closer together after Britain announced it's will to leave is just a natural counter reaction to all the bullshit talk of Farage et all. When he keeps telling the EU that they'll fail, what do you think their reaction should be? "Oh, guess he's right!" and start packing? Seriously... in which world is that the first thing that comes to mind? Nah, the natural reaction is "guess we'll show that arrogant bastard" and prove him wrong.

The EU as a political entity may be drawing closer, the member states and their citizens are not though, they are all over the place.

The EU bureaucracy is smaller and costs less money than most national bureaucracies.

That is only due to it using those other bureaucracies to implement its policies.

If it had to implement them itself, then there is no indication it would not lead to French-style superspending, as shown by that nonsense of them having to move between Belgium and France, which seems to exist solely to massage French egos.

[Alexeht]

Please can you change topic name? Europe is a continent and it is going nowhere. European Union on the another hand can go to hell...

[Fuiking]

go to Amsterdam, see hell!

[saradonin]

It's gonna fall. Thing is with time EU feels more and more like Soviet Union.
Yeah, I come from one of them post communist countries and I'm telling you it starts to feel the same now. EU is not an union anymore, it isn't about unified trade and common policy anymore. It's invading lives of citizens with more and more shit, corruption, utterly stupid regulations (saing carrot is a fruit, determining acceptable curve of the banana or how much water you can flush in your toilet).

[Deleted]

That person made the claim that the EU is heading toward a 'United federation of Europe', which you rubbished and now you are acknowledging that is the goal.

It's one thing to acknowledge likely ends, and another to work towards that as a goal.

[shrunken]

Only one in three even want a referendum.

This is the arrogance that will ultimately see the EU fall flat.

(saing carrot is a fruit, determining acceptable curve of the banana or how much water you can flush in your toilet).

I don't mean to belittle your gripes, but I did laugh.

[Sliske]

Kill it with fire.

Or better yet alternatively, massively reform it.

Its senseless to disband the EU just because the leadership is filled with power hungry globalists. Kick them the fuck out, instead.

Also, stop people like Angela Merkel having the power to negatively effect hundreds of millions of people in the name of "muh feelings" - free movement of people, especially refugees (Read: economic migrants) needs to stop. If Angela Merkel insists on destroying Germany (and the Germans want her to) - let her, But don't let those decisions effect me.

[Kalis]

It's one thing to acknowledge likely ends, and another to work towards that as a goal.

It is not exactly a secret that there are those who are working towards that goal, so it is not like the two are entirely separate.