Europe starts to think the unthinkable: breaking up

[Fuiking]

Many parents tell their children Zwarte Piet was black due to the chimney, or were brown due to a lot of sun in Spain.

And then the scientific/historic origins that Zwarte Piet was a Moor or Sinterklaas a Turkish Bishop, but really you don't tell your children that, cause the generic "tradition" of at least the last 30 years ,was he came with his Steam Boat from Spain with candy and presents.

And as of recent years, the part where they use the "roe" (wooden sticks) to slap naughty children and take them in their bag to spain is generally faded out.

Even going further back it seems to be Germanic Mythology based off Odin/Wodan Riding his horse sleipnir (sinterklaas riding his horse on rooftops), giving rune letters to people (chocolate letters these days), Odin had a spear, and 2 black ravens, (Sinterklaas has a staff and black helpers).

And WoW-s Odyn is based off Odin also of course with spears/ravens/runes :P

As for Suriname:
It was a colony for many many years (we traded New Amsterdam/Manhattan with the English for Suriname), and many people speak Dutch there, same for the Dutch Antilles.

Anyhow going too offtopic again so enough from here.

30years? you mean closer to 100 years. And I bet your one of those jokers who totally are destroying a kids celebration.

[Fuiking]

The notion that you need the EU for trading is beyond me, we'd be fine - like we have been the gazillion years before the union. Id like to note once more here that in my version of the EU we'd have a 'core member' union with countries like UK germany, france.. spain,austria denmark norway,sweden,plenty big for having a strong trading position for trade agreements and these countries actually share a cultural background- and some actual democratic accountability for the comissioners would be icing on the cake.

saying the US would have animus if we leave the EU against is laughable.. they trusted us with a part of their nuclear arsenal - thats not the sort of thing you do unless you have the strongest of (cultural/political)ties.

We'd be fine? Thats so bad thinking? We were fine because we had a trading empire and thus the Germans nor the British invaded us during WW1, before that? ever since we got rekted by Napoleon we became irrelevant, the only reason why no one bothered with us because we were basically a nice neutral country in a spot which was handy. And you think we did fine before the EU came about? Sure we managed to hold on abit longer on our growth during the shennigans of the 30's (economic woes). But once our trading and export suffered from it, it took us longer to recover, we got saved because of WW2, iif that hadnt happened we would have been among the slowest of european countries in recovering, why? marshall aid saved and made it possible to get some industrilation going on, not to forget about the Frisian gas.

So basically: Stability and the Oomph the EU provides gives us access to more/better/equal trading partners, without the EU? maybe, but not as good nor as much.

p.s. many typos!

[Theodarzna]

EU countries regaining their sovereignty won't start a war. You can still have free trade, free movement (with proper vetting), and not be dependent on one country to dictate how your economy works. Austerity measures hurt the EU a lot, especially Greece. The countries economy and internal affairs should be decided by the local population, not people who have no idea of the conditions on the ground.

Apparently the EU is all that prevents another World War and the resurrection of Adolf Hitler in the form of Neo-MechaHitler and restarting WW2..... the revengencing! As we also know, non-EU states like Switzerland and Norway are in a nightmare hellscape of perpetual war because they are not protected by the radiant light of the Eternal Commission, THE COMMISSION PROTECTS! /s

Or, its possible that the EU is just a structure that emerged out of peace, and is not actually responsible for it.

[Mehrunes]

EU countries regaining their sovereignty won't start a war. You can still have free trade, free movement (with proper vetting), and not be dependent on one country to dictate how your economy works. Austerity measures hurt the EU a lot, especially Greece. The countries economy and internal affairs should be decided by the local population, not people who have no idea of the conditions on the ground.

For a country to regain its sovereignty it would need to lose it first. Which isn't the case for any EU member state (in the time span of it being an EU member state that is). And no one country dictates how the economy works. Also, Greece isn't exactly the best argument since they have established to have no idea of the conditions on their own ground either. We wouldn't even get here with this clusterfuck if they did.

It means that if they get a paycheck, they pay tax; if not, the country revokes their right to work, until they pay what they owe.

Are you under the impression EU migrants don't pay their taxes en masse or something?

If too many people are trying to compete for the same jobs, stop the flow till there are enough jobs.

I.e. not free movement.

Apparently the EU is all that prevents another World War and the resurrection of Adolf Hitler in the form of Neo-MechaHitler and restarting WW2..... the revengencing! As we also know, non-EU states like Switzerland and Norway are in a nightmare hellscape of perpetual war because they are not protected by the radiant light of the Eternal Commission, THE COMMISSION PROTECTS! /s

And here it is. I suppose it was an error on my part to hold any hope for your argumentation on EU to get better (past the immensely low threshold you established for it).

[Theodarzna]

And here it is. I suppose it was an error on my part to hold any hope for your argumentation on EU to get better (past the immensely low threshold you established for it).

I look forward to your further ridicule, until I obviously say stuff you agree with on Feminism and then suddenly I'm this right and perfect angel whose words are great and immaculate.

Sorry we could not agree on the EU.

[Mayhem]

Have you read what I wrote? It's not a "goal", it's a result. The "goal" was to prevent wars in Europe. We have achieved that. Anything since then up to where we are now is just a series of bonus points. The original goal of the EU has long been achieved. Or so I thought, until some nationalist pricks started attacking the EU again. Why do you think I am so fiercely debating EU issues here? I can tell you, it's not because I worry where my next paycheck is coming from how whether some politicians in Berlin have more or less authority over the things that affect me. It's because for the first time in Millenia, Germany is not just at peace with all its neighbours, it's on positively friendly terms with everyone of them.

I disagree with your statement on bureaucracy completely, but arguing the way you argue, there is no convincing you. Even if they had just one person being a bureaucrat, it would be "on top of national bureaucracy" and by your definition, bloat. That's a bit idiotic, but I guess it's a fair point of view. For a wide definition of "fair", that is.

The EU is held to higher standards than his own country, of course therefore the EU is bloated and bad in everything it does (apart from trade, that´s good, everything else, is bad).

Ask him for being specific and you get deflection. I do say what he does is fun to watch and kind of an art form.

[Deleted]

Most everyday Europeans love the idea of an united continent without borders between its members and common cultural identity

I can't speak for you continentals but I would rather die than live in a United States of Europe.

[Santti]

For some reason, I'm not overly worried about it. I feel like EU is not going anywhere.

[Aggrophobic]

EU countries regaining their sovereignty won't start a war. You can still have free trade, free movement (with proper vetting), and not be dependent on one country to dictate how your economy works. Austerity measures hurt the EU a lot, especially Greece. The countries economy and internal affairs should be decided by the local population, not people who have no idea of the conditions on the ground.

If history is any indication, Europe can't keep the peace without working together and the EU is without a doubt the most successful attempt at that.
When it comes to Greece, they have only themselves to blame.

[Mayhem]

Conditions change, you cannot have a one size fits all for the entire union, because each country is different. You can stick with what the EU currently has, and watch as hard right wing politicians start winning elections, or you can modulate based on what each country's needs are.

The hard right wing politicians aren´t winning because of what the EU is but because of what they tell the people the EU is.

[Slant]

The EU parliament. It's ridiculous. I blame the French.

How exactly is consolidating Brussels, Strasbourg and Luxembourg into Strasbourg and Luxembourg being more inefficient? @Kalis explain yourself, this is a joke, isn't it? You do know that Strasbourg is full of EU courts and shit, right? And you want me to prove to you how this is inefficient? Rofl...

[Theodarzna]

If history is any indication, Europe can't keep the peace without working together and the EU is without a doubt the most successful attempt at that.
When it comes to Greece, they have only themselves to blame.

Is the EU responsible for the Peace or is it just a structure that emerged out of it?

- - - Updated - - -

If people did not agree they would not vote for them. There has to be some truth for it to resonate, otherwise it would fall on deaf ears.

I think some people just prefer to believe it all evil Slavic blood magic rather than admit there could possibly be a problem.

I swear the EU is presented as the Second Coming of Jesus the way some people talk about it.

[Deleted]

I don't see it falling apart within the next decade. It might downsize but a lot of countries are going to beg to come back at some point because they need Western cash to stay above water, namely all the non Western and Northern countries that are part of the EU. I don't see le Pen winning either, so France won't be leaving anyway.

[Mayhem]

If people did not agree they would not vote for them. There has to be some truth for it to resonate, otherwise it would fall on deaf ears.

Hahahahaa no. People want to believe the shit they hear because those are easy albeit wrong explanations. People agree to the lies they here and then vote for them. There doesn´t need to be truth involved, you´re american, you should now this.

[Slant]

The sentence doesn't seem to be in some sort of context, but more like a general statement to me. I have been called "nationalist" (used as an insult by the way) many times by certain people, that's why I felt the need to respond to that.

Haha, you're cute. See, when I call you a nationalist. That's it. You're someone who wanks off to the idea of a Turkish Empire. You're very much a nationalist. Whether or not I mean it as an insult doesn't matter, it's a descriptive term. That you somehow think it's an insult probably says more about your own opinion and the dilemma you're finding yourself in... being a nationalist, but somehow traditionally despising nationalists, because they remind you of nazis.

Well, buddy, that's a paradox you'll have to get out of yourself. Until then, I'll call you a nationalist. And Farage and Le Pen as well. It's really not my problem that people like them might feel offended by it.

Here's a joke... a dude puts something into his pocket and leaves without paying... when the store owner yells "Stop, you thief!" he turns around and says "Why you insult me like that, man? I just took it! I wasn't thieving it!"

That's your line of reasoning...

[Aggrophobic]

Is the EU responsible for the Peace or is it just a structure that emerged out of it?

The EU is, yes.

[Deleted]

Is the EU responsible for the Peace or is it just a structure that emerged out of it?

- - - Updated - - -



I think some people just prefer to believe it all evil Slavic blood magic rather than admit there could possibly be a problem.

I swear the EU is presented as the Second Coming of Jesus the way some people talk about it.

For a lot of countries in the EU it is the closest thing to Jesus. A lot of those countries accelerated so fast in wealth because being part of the union, not to mention in a lot of those countries the living and working conditions rose pretty sharply because of the EU regulations. Corruption in a lot of countries especially in the Eastern region of Europe went down, some are still problematic, but it's definitely improving.

For a lot of EU countries the EU acts as a safety net which allows them to invest more into the future and if they weren't part of the EU they probably would have a lot of difficulties to achieve the same thing.

[Ravenblade]

If people did not agree they would not vote for them. There has to be some truth for it to resonate, otherwise it would fall on deaf ears.

It has to sound like truth. That's all that's needed. You have to grant them authority over definitions in order to make them succeed.

Arguments like the EU has stolen sovereignity and is holding people down cannot be successfully defended once you know the facts. But that's difficult as long as people do not get even basics right such as whether the Eurozone is synonymous with the EU is synonymous with Europe.

[Deleted]

If the EU disbands, does that mean Germany lost WW3? I mean it's obvious that the EU is German's way to conquer Europe using economics instead of weapons, and if it fails...well I guess it's back to the drawing board for Germany.

[Theodarzna]

The EU is, yes.

How so? I was under the Impression the NATO, the US and the Cold War had more to do with it.

Seems the EU merely overlays peace, not underpins it.