Does the US meddle in the Russian political process?

[Zecora]

What would you say about the posters here openly advocating for meddling into other peoples election?

"Fix your own country"

Okay, honest answer? To interfere in the democratic (or, as it may be, quasi-democratic) processes of another nation is not just ethically and morally reprehensible, is effectively disqualifies you from complaining if another nation does the same to you.

[Deleted]

Okay...you sound like a psychopath, wanting to see a nation and all it's people destroyed because...what? You think they "did 9/11"?

Honestly, get some help.

There really is no difference between some isis extremist and this guy.

[Zecora]

While I agree Skroe is a sociopath for wanting a country destroyed like that and inflict human misery on people like that. I will ughhhh..... *shiver* mildly defend Skroe in that he did some miscommunication and meant to say that he considers Russian meddling to be the exact same thing as Pearl Harbor and 9/11.

Hrm. At least he's not delusional then, but his comment still leaves me disgusted.

[NED funded]

Americans? I'm talking about you. Thankfully not all americans are like you.

And you keep on going, this is amusing.

[Theodarzna]

Hrm. At least he's not delusional then, but his comment still leaves me disgusted.

Same. I never enjoy giving Skroe any defense at all, BELIEVE ME ON THAT ONE!

He is delusional in other ways, more subtle and high functioning ways in my opinion. But that is a matter of back and forth debate/mutual dislike of one another.

[Deleted]

And you keep on going, this is amusing.

I'm sure you do find your ignorance amusing. If you found it embarrassing you'd be trying to change. Keep justifying bloody dictatorships *pat*

Now please stop bothering me.

[Zecora]

World without the USA would be a marvel. No fucking Marvel (lol) superhero retarded movies for brain-dead, no Justin Beibers and other pop shit, no invasions and world terrorism,no obsession with pederasts, feminism and all that LGBT bullshit - the world can finally start exploring Space, all those iPhones and Samsungs will still be made on those same factories in South Korea, on Taiwan and mainland China, just the brand-name will change.
Well we lose almost nothing except 250 mil piglet-like moronic lives and gain World's stability and many other things.

Just to correct you: Bieber is Canadian, The US isn't the only place where people care about LGBT rights, and the US population is in excess of 350 million, not 250.
Also, while I am by NO means a fan of the US, US politics, US mainstream culture, US scientific guidelines or US business practices, there are a lot of nice, perfectly kind and likeable people in the US. They do not deserve to be refered to as "piglet-like moronic lives", any more than Russians, Koreans or Nigerians do.

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Same. I never enjoy giving Skroe any defense at all, BELIEVE ME ON THAT ONE!

He is delusional in other ways, more subtle and high functioning ways in my opinion. But that is a matter of back and forth debate/mutual dislike of one another.

I'm sure quite a few people on this forum thinks the same about me. I do my best to judge people on a case-by case business though, ( and I am in no way innocent of taking a strong, perhaps overly strong stance on my dislikes at times either ) but I couldn't overlook his comment.

Perhaps the comments of others that we find distasteful is a reminder to look closer at our own comments made in rage.

[NED funded]

I'm sure you do find your ignorance amusing. If you found it embarrassing you'd be trying to change. Keep justifying bloody dictatorships *pat*
Now please stop bothering me.

omg you keep answering.

[zm3i]

Just to correct you: Bieber is Canadian, The US isn't the only place where people care about LGBT rights, and the US population is in excess of 350 million, not 250.
Also, while I am by NO means a fan of the US, US politics, US mainstream culture, US scientific guidelines or US business practices, there are a lot of nice, perfectly kind and likeable people in the US. They do not deserve to be refered to as "piglet-like moronic lives", any more than Russians, Koreans or Nigerians do.

dude, u wouldn't see a trolljob even if it was right on ur head.
A nazi scum went full retard and kinda "attacked" my country, i retaliated with only 1 thing i supposed to be right in such a situation.
Of course it looks retarded harsh and inappropriate, but what was i supposed to do, tell a joke?

[Deleted]

omg you keep answering.

It's called "education". It's part of the package. Oh you wouldn't understand.

[Deleted]

Russia is well known to be having a salt shortage. They only hacked the elections as they knew the Clinton supporters would provide them with all the salt they need for years to come

Jokes aside, They just aired some of the DNCs dirty laundry. Trump and Clinton supporters were both WELL into their "bubbles" by then so it would have had zero impact. ZERO impact. Clinton lost it all on her own (maybe with a little help from Comey). All this moaning about Russian hackers is just bad loosers bad loosering still.

(also, Partysaurus Rex is AWESOME).

Russia tried/succeeded in influencing your election, and you couldn't give two shits?

[Zecora]

dude, u wouldn't see a trolljob even if it was right on ur head.
A nazi scum went full retard and kinda "attacked" my country, i retaliated with only 1 thing i supposed to be right in such a situation.
Of course it looks retarded harsh and inappropriate, but what was i supposed to do, tell a joke?

Don't really think you'll achieve anything by sinking to his level, except to give him a reason to report you, since you're not allowed to refer to other posters as a "troll" here.

Your choice though, if you go for the joke option, I recommend using one about an angry right-winger. Or maybe the classic about the US, Russia and pens in space.

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Russia tried/succeeded in influencing your election, and you couldn't give two shits?

At a guess, because "it wasn't 'my team' that got hit". If it'd been the GOP dirty laundry...he'd probably be livid.

[zm3i]

Hack them back. Use information warfare against them. The Panama Papers apparently were taken very seriously by Putin.
Fund opposition groups. Engineer a color revolution (succeed or fail)
Fund and arm secessionist and insurgent groups.
Try and re-stoke the Chechen fire.

There's lots of things we can do. Russia is a uniquely vulnerable country. We should be an outright aggressor against them. Enemy... not just mere adversary.

It's nothing we haven't done to them before. And you know what? It works.

Lol in a tread related to how US meddles in the Russian political process, u said IT ALL how US not only meddled in the Russian political process, but was creating and arming terrorists in Chechnya.
Fucking moron, u admitted urself that the US is a sponsor and creator of terrorism. The NSA will not pay ur latest wage, imbecile, after such a rant.
Lol are u on drugs, or full mental?

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@Skroe and all of Russia behind him.

more like this:

[starlord]

In theory, all of us could be paid trolls of someone or something. Is it wise to level that accusation against anyone and everyone whose opinion is not your own @zm3i?

I mean, to me it seems like a shitty accusation/tactic to just avoid the actual content of the discussion and accuse the person of having some other motive as to why they have their opinions. I called it out when @darenyon used that same accusation (Although for him/her it was "Paid Putin Troll!") and I do the same with you.

Why be so hostile and accusatory?

because thats what all of your discussions ultimately go back to. or is that not the point of this entire thread?

[Stacyrect]

US is not innocent and seemingly seems to intervene in many elections


CIA involved in French elections

https://wikileaks.org/cia-france-elections-2012/


Here's some audio on Hillary

http://observer.com/2016/10/2006-aud...tine-election/

Seems like she took her own advice their in regards to the american election

[Bodakane]

Corruption is corruption is corruption. Should I trust the CIA's preferred candidate?

Over Russia's, yes you absolutely should.

[Skroe]

While I agree Skroe is a sociopath for wanting a country destroyed like that and inflict human misery on people like that. I will ughhhh..... *shiver* mildly defend Skroe in that he did some miscommunication and meant to say that he considers Russian meddling to be the exact same thing as Pearl Harbor and 9/11.

I find it very peculiar, to say the least, and more than a little suspect, that the very first date I listed was December 7th, 1941... Pearl Harbor. And somehow it became "Skroe thinkgs the Ruskies caused 9/11".

Are forum goers so uneducated about history now they don't even know what 12/7/41 is? Or is, as I suspect, individuals being intentionally blind to that to make the post ridiculous rather than contexualizing?

December 7th 1941 was a Military Attack against our country by an aggressive foreign power. Pearl Harbor.
Septeber 11th 2011 was a terrorist attack against our country, by a terrorist group... Our "terrorism pearl harbor"
November 8th 2016 was the culmination of a cybertattack against our country by an aggressive foreign power.... Our "cyber pearl harbor".


"Cyber Pearl Harbor" has been a notion discussed for many years by security experts, due to a belief that the United States was not adequately preparing to defend itself from the next phase of warfare. Wall Street has become pretty well defended, but it's telling that the Obama Administration didn't even designate election infrastructure as "critical national infrastructure" until AFTER the 2016 election. Most scenarios for 'Cyber Pearl Harbor" involved hackers taking down the New York City Power Grid, or shutting down the NYSE, or something. A hack attack combined with information warfare wasn't on the map.

But it is exactly the same. Russia attack us. Unconventionally, but still an attack. And it must pay a price.

Now as for my "sociopathic" comments, let's be clear about something so you understand my thinking. By admission of the US Military, one of the few existential threats to the United States is the Russian nuclear arsenal. I, like Reagan, think the fact that 1500 nuclear warheads are pointed at us in 2017 is unacceptable. That needs to be undone. The best way to undo that is, like last time, to indirectly use economics to disarm Russia.

Nuclear infrastructure is tremendously expensive. The United States with it's $608 billion defense budget spends half as much as Russia does (as a percentage of it's defense budget) on it's nuclear arsenal, and the Pentagon is always looking for ways to spend even less. After all, who wants to spend money on something you'll probably never use?

Around the world we see Arsenals ranging from 60-200... and it's all driven by economics. The French, as rich as they are, cannot afford a nuclear arsenal much larger than the one they own now. China, cannot afford one much larger without cutting into conventional defense spending. India and Pakistan... the same thing. Their Arsenals have only modestly grown in the past 17 years because making warheads and making reliable solid-fueled missiles to put them on is expensive. And the cost of ownership is crippling.

Remember the most important fact about the US's upcoming nuclear spending spree: it's not even the new features that are desired... it's about bringing down the cost of ownership.

Which brings us to Russia. They wanted NewSTART badly, because Russia's nuclear arsenal is crippling to it's modernization plans. Russia can afford to keep it's current arsenal and keep it's current military, or it can afford to modernize one or the other. It cannot do both. They needed the cuts, because they're a middle income country in an economic decline, that has an arsenal that a country with five times the wealth should have. For them it is unaffordable.

So what do I make of this? I want Russia to break up because I want to lock that in. Russia, with 140 million people, does not generate the revenues able to sustain it's current military posture on an perpetual basis. If Russia were broken up into a dozen smaller countries, with populations ranging from 4 million - 30 million, the tax bases and revenues of those resulting states would be so constrained as to support, at best, much more modest nuclear arsenals. You would see 1550 warheads aimed at the US decline to 200 or 100 because a population of 18 million taxpayers will not be able to afford 1550 warheads, and pretty much everything else. And 100-200 per country? Well within the range of missile defense to potentially handle.

There is no reason to think this is not possible. This is exactly what happened at the end of the Cold War. The USSR splintered into a couple dozen countries and semi-independent states, and a handful of these - Kazakhstan, Belarus and Ukraine - all got stuck holding expensive ex-Soviet nuclear arsenals they couldn't afford and didn't want to pay for. So they arranged a deal where Russia took them off their hands, and overall, the number of warheads dropped tenfold.

I would see that happen again, and this time, for good, because the largest successor state to Russia would be substantially smaller than the one that exists now.

So putting this all together, we have Russia... our historic adversary which we spent 50 years in a global struggle with, that lost the Cold War, and feels wronged by that loss... having recently engaged in aggressive actions against us, directly and indirectly. We also know that they are a country teetering on the brink, for many reasons. And we also know they, unique in the world, have the weapons to destroy us.

So I say again: the United States should seek to break up Russia by any means, at almost any cost (except through direct military action of course). Doing so, and splintering the country, will splinter its buying power and lead to a reduction of the magnitude of the strategic threat against us. Will this lead to misery and hardship for everyday Russians? Absolutely. But I don't care. They are not Westerners. They are not our allies. They are not Americans. They have directly enabled this. I don't owe anything to them and I don't care what happens to them. Maybe they thrive in their smaller successor states. Maybe it turns into Mad Max. Tolerating would-be rivals in perpetuity is insane.

Losing wars and provoking greater powers has consequences. The time is coming for Russia to face the consequences of what they have done. Russia doesn't get to exist the 21st century in one piece.

[Theodarzna]

because thats what all of your discussions ultimately go back to. or is that not the point of this entire thread?

An alternative possibility is that I actually am not fond of the idea of a global empire? There is the distinct possibility that I and @Skroe both hold our respective opinions simply through the process of absorbing information and coming to a conclusion from that information?

I doubt Skroe is on the payroll of the NSA for his opinions, or Correct the Record for that matter. I do not doubt Skroe's sincerity and I'd be hypocritical if I did not call out that silly tactic when it is used against him since I don't like people using that "Paid Troll" crap in general.

[Deleted]

16 pages in and still nobody explained how exactly Russia ''hacked'' anything. Amazing.

[Skroe]

An alternative possibility is that I actually am not fond of the idea of a global empire? There is the distinct possibility that I and @Skroe both hold our respective opinions simply through the process of absorbing information and coming to a conclusion from that information?

I doubt Skroe is on the payroll of the NSA for his opinions, or Correct the Record for that matter. I do not doubt Skroe's sincerity and I'd be hypocritical if I did not call out that silly tactic when it is used against him since I don't like people using that "Paid Troll" crap in general.

I work for a robotics firm. I'm a scientist. If I was on the NSA payroll, I'd be the least effective professional forum sock puppet ever. I piss as many people off as I win over.

My brother works for government (New York City). They don't pay him nearly what they should. Not to toot my own horn, but with my CV I'm too expensive for the NSA unless I wanted to take a paycut.

But that said, if I could do it all over again, I would go back in time and tell my younger self to follow some of my friends and be post-financial crisis quants on Wall Street. Sure I would have sold my soul and wouldn't have hours as nice as now, but starting at $250k-$350k a year sounds real nice considering it's going to be me, and not my brother, taking care of our aging parents and family finances and so forth, in a decade and a half.