Over 2000 guilds stuck at 3/10 mythic, was tuning 7 bosses to 54 traits a mistake?

[Hottage]

Given I've barely set foot in heroic, made no attempt to farm AP and am already at 45/54 traits, I'd say it's not a stretch to assume that hardcore mythic raiders would be aiming for 54/54 by this point.

[styil]

Several is not 14 trait levels. There's a big difference between "bypassing" a few traits and bypassing 14 which is what you said originally.

If they have been playing since Legion launch they should have > 4 legendaries, which is around half of the legendaries available to their spec. This means that everyone should at least have the middling legendaries in terms of dps. If you're sitting with less than 4 legendaries at this point in the game you just haven't been playing enough. Plain and simple.

If they have the best legendaries, lucky them - they can probably do the raid with even less traits.

I never said bypassing 14. And 'should have' is not the same as 'will have'. RNG is RNG. Which is why it is not balanced around BiS legendaries. But it is balanced around having the raw power of 54 traits. Now you can be lucky, have BiS legendaries and be fine with 40s traits, or be like the rest of us with trash legendaries and farm to 54. Either way, there is no escaping the requirement of having the raw power of 54 traits.

[Deleted]

I never said bypassing 14. And 'should have' is not the same as 'will have'. RNG is RNG. Which is why it is not balanced around BiS legendaries. But it is balanced around having the raw power of 54 traits. Now you can be lucky, have BiS legendaries and be fine with 40s traits, or be like the rest of us with trash legendaries and farm to 54. Either way, there is no escaping the requirement of having the raw power of 54 traits.

You just said it again...

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Good luck trying to defeat krosus mythic with your raid full of fire mages, unholy dks and destro warlocks (to say some underperforming specs). This thread is suppose to talk about mythic raiding, if you don't want to be carried as a (e.g.) dk you have to play frost (instead of unholy). That wasn't a problem in previous expansions, this expansion you are stuck with your spec because bla bla bla...

Yeah. Good luck with that.

And how many raids do you know that are full of fire mages, unholy dk's and destro warlocks?

[styil]

You just said it again...

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Yeah. Good luck with that.

And how many raids do you know that are full of fire mages, unholy dk's and destro warlocks?

No, I did not.

[Bullarkie]

Blizzard just agreed it was a bad idea and "Tomb will be different"

[Deleted]

No, I did not.

Read below.

I never said bypassing 14. And 'should have' is not the same as 'will have'. RNG is RNG. Which is why it is not balanced around BiS legendaries. But it is balanced around having the raw power of 54 traits. Now you can be lucky, have BiS legendaries and be fine with 40s traits, or be like the rest of us with trash legendaries and farm to 54. Either way, there is no escaping the requirement of having the raw power of 54 traits.

"Now you can be lucky, have BiS legendaries and be fine with 40s traits or be like the rest of us with trash legendaries and farm to 54".

[Taladendren]

Wow. The way people are talking, you'd think you needed to grind all ~60 million AP before getting any trait above 35.

M Krosus is not tuned for 35 traits, yeah, duh. He may be tuned for 47. Half of the AP you need to cap out is for points 48-54 (after 35). Getting to 47 is just not that hard. Going to from 47 to 54 traits is just under a 3.5% output increase (it's actually .035/1.115).

The .1% of players who are so good they couldn't squeeze out 3.5% more dps by playing better have downed 7/10 M at least.

Edit:
Anyone comparing 35 to 54 traits for NH mythic is doing it wrong. Really wrong. If you're doing NH mythic at 35, you should expect to wipe a lot. With AK 25 getting 45 or 47 isn't hard. That's the baseline for comparison.

[Marrilaife]

But we have to accept the realities that some players play more, are better and need to be entertained too. I would say raiders are the group that burn through the content in the game quickest.

Can Blizzard guarantee they won't have another year+ tier? They promise it every time, and it happens again and again, ICC, Dragon Soul, SOO, HFC they all lasted for ages because Blizzard was done with the content for the current expac and the new one wasn't done yet. They said they learned the cadence of content now, I'll believe when I see it.

Btw, I don't think ToS will be here for another month and a half yet at least so chill and enjoy the raid

Blizzard said every major raid should last 4-5 months, so when NH came I didn't expect TOS until May-June. "A month and a half" is halfway April and that's the problem, with the state PTR is in everyone expects something like that, for me it means 1-2 months cut from NH, despite Blizzard's claims they know how to pace raid releases to not repeat old mistake early expansion content launches too fast and there isn't anything left in the end, creating content drought.

I see last week my server saw several Krosus kills among the more casual guilds (those that don't raid 4+ times a week), so I don't panic about that. But if it takes 2-3 weeks per boss for an "average mythic guild" (for example those that were stuck on Gorefiend for a good amount of time in HFC), if TOS launches mid-April most of these guilds will barely lick Star Augur, a boss that is expected to need a lot of time even with max traits and NH gear, because he's considered one of the hardest (some top guilds said they had more wipes on him than on mythic Elisande).

It's not inherently bad for a boss to be hard and take a lot of time, but it feels lame when you abandon a boss because more lucrative raid opens or when you work on a boss and when you nearly have him, some heavy handed nerfs drop and boss turns into a joke, cheapening the feeling of accomplishment of the kill (that's how mythic Odyn felt to me).

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pretty much every class with multiple dps specs has had the bottom spec overtake the top one at some point in Legion :/

Yeah, despite Blizzard promising it won't be the case and you won't feel you invested in a "wrong" artifact. And not every guild among the more casual ones has a roster of 30 so they can slot classes depending on what's best for the boss. Many of the lower half of mythic guilds are only differentiated from heroic guilds by 2 things: 1) they have more than 20 people (often barely) 2) they actually have willingness to raid mythic (many people even on these forums say they don't raid mythic because they aren't interested, they don't care, not that they cannot).

I never said bosses should be handed on a silver platter just because someone wants to be a mythic raider, but the situation where "oh, you're a fire mage, there's the bench, we need a DH instead" feels super lame to that mage in question. Especially since at the beginning of Legion fire mage was THE spec to play, the awful balance swings of Blizzard team are just inexcusable.

I'm personally not a fotm reroller and I stick to the main I play since wotlk, doesn't mean that justifies what we're seeing and that followed by self-complacency of devs "the class balance was never better than now!"

Yes, but in previous expansions if 1 spec of your class got nerfed, you had way less penalty for switching to another spec, and pure dps classes always considered this as their advantage rather than penalty - the ability to use whichever spec is best for an encounter. They no longer can, artifacts and legendaries ensure they will stay sub-par. Even then, both mages in my guild are silently grinding their frost spec, as none of them had BIS fire legendaries so fire for them is as good as dead, despite they invested 54 traits in it.

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This means that everyone should at least have the middling legendaries in terms of dps. If you're sitting with less than 4 legendaries at this point in the game you just haven't been playing enough. Plain and simple.

A moment of silence for all the hunters with prydaz, sephuz, roots of shaladrassil and voodoo mask.

[force18]

Sorry missed someone already posted blue post

[Fynzie]

In that case, your problem is that the game apparently has very few mythic raiders. So why should Blizzard go to the trouble of making a whole raid mode for you guys?

What a non-sens argument.

I have no problem Mythic was intended to be hard and not for everyone. Blizzard already said they are designing Heroic first and adding some stuff for Mythic and doing the tuning took a small amount of the total time needed to design the instance (on a programming standpoint). Blizzard is giving youi 4 difficulties to select the one suited for you, if you want to climb to the next one, git gud.

[Osmeric]

What a non-sens argument.

I have no problem Mythic was intended to be hard and not for everyone. Blizzard already said they are designing Heroic first and adding some stuff for Mythic and doing the tuning took a small amount of the total time needed to design the instance (on a programming standpoint). Blizzard is giving youi 4 difficulties to select the one suited for you, if you want to climb to the next one, git gud.

Sorry for the bad phrasing. What I meant was the consequences of that situation (very few mythic raiders) would end up being bad for you, if you are one of those "real" mythic raiders, not that this is what you're currently concerned about.

[Saeran]

We have 35 guilds on my server that are 4/10M or higher, so I would say that the Mythic tuning seems well balanced to me seeing how long the tier has been out.

[merli]

How can you be sure it is tuned to 54 traits? What is the increase in dps for every trait and IS every fight a dps check? What is the overall ilv compared to the more advanced guilds?

In a way, it now looks like mythic NH is like Naxx 40 - with the difference that you had a chance to clear it with less of a challenge on a lower difficulty and now have a new challenge and it might feel "rewarding" to beat those bosses again.

Hate to bring that up in every other thread, but so much in Legion reminds me of how grindy / hard things were in Classic and TBC - and people just have been asking for that. Seems Blizzard did listen.

Classic and TBC was much less grindy than Legion is at the moment. In Classic and TBC you could just get online for raid night and still clear every raid. In Legion you suddenly need to farm AP outside of raids which many people just don't have time for. I'm just glad Blizzard finally agreed they fucked up with AP.

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One problem I have seen is the 20 player requirement and it's almost impossible now for one of your DPS to switch to heals/tank without gimping the raid. It used to be you could play 2 specs or an alt when needed but with legis and AP you can't unless you play 24/7.

Yes that's a huge problem at the moment. And I don't know why Blizzard at the moment does not agree. AP should count for every weapon and not just for one.

[cocacolawheresthesoda]

You might not agree and that's fine, but numbers are in. EN was ways easier than NH Mythic and it goes to show that many guilds that cleared 7/7M (hard, from what it looked like), many people thought they'd be able to raid mythic, which is really not the case.

Love it.

[styil]

Read below.



"Now you can be lucky, have BiS legendaries and be fine with 40s traits or be like the rest of us with trash legendaries and farm to 54".

I did not say 40 there.

[Zyky]

I mean, that's a useless number without also knowing how many guilds are raiding in the first place, and how many of those 2,000 guilds have people short on artifact traits.

I see it a different way, the number is there for a reason, they've even tweeted that they've tuned the content around people having maxed AP. All the guilds who have currently killed Gul'dan all have 54 points in at least their main weapon. I haven't looked but I'm sure it's the same for Star Augur. Krosus is very tight, but doable if you have a couple slackers in your guild, but if most of your group isn't at 54 you won't meet the DPS check. These are pretty much fact, especially when Blizzard admitted to doing it. Regardless of how many people are missing AP, they overtuned content after saying that the 20 point talent wasn't something they were going to tune around, but rather that it was supposed to be a nerf for the content as time went on.

[Deleted]

they've tuned the content around people having maxed AP

No it is not. The content is tuned around DPS/HPS values and how you get them is your choice. If you haven't any time pressure, you dont need to max out trait levels to clear the raid, gear upgrades are sufficient enough. It just takes more time this way.

If you are in a guild which aims for a fast clear or rather a good world ranking, you need any benifit you can get. This includes to have everything maxed out before the new progression phase starts. Not only AP, but also your gear and alts. Unfortunately the nature of legion prevents you from getting the absolute maximum before the next progression phase starts due to the wf/tf system and the upcoming AP gate. In the xpacks before you have usually pretty much BiS gear after a couple of weaks. This will never happen in legion, because the gap between the usual ilvls and the tf procs is just to big. You will always feel your gear is not on its best and it feels you can do more to be prepared to your maximum for the next race. To spent all your free time you have besides RL or even without RL is barely enough. #tryhard

[reauxmont]

What is actually meant by "tuned for 54 traits"? How can you tune for traits, when they only make up a small part of the damage output? A whole raid with only 35 traits will kill every boss eventually, once they gathered enough gear.

[Saiona]

People who think ToS is coming out in april are retarded. 7.2 is not releasing with ToS

[KaPe]

What is actually meant by "tuned for 54 traits"? How can you tune for traits, when they only make up a small part of the damage output? A whole raid with only 35 traits will kill every boss eventually, once they gathered enough gear.

So where is this gear supposed to be coming from? The first three mythic bosses offer the lowest level gear available, except for Trillax tier cloak. It's also a very limited item pool, so you'll be upgrading only a few slots. Other than that, you're hoping to get lucky with Titanforged procs, which is down to rng.

Besides, traits are % based, so they scale with gear. They don't suddenly become worthless because you got some decent items. And each one is worth a minor upgrade on its own - and you don't have to worry about balancing secondaries so your 'upgrade' remains an upgrade.