Europe starts to think the unthinkable: breaking up

[GennGreymane]

Its not E.U, its M.E

[Deleted]

Which is a Netherlands problem and not an EU problem. You have the same Article 50 rights as anyone else and it's not up to EU to invoke them for you.

Just chiming in here, this isn't even happening in the Netherlands. He is trying to use the 2 referenda that where held to mean something completely different to support his cause. For everyone's information, the two referenda that he is trying to point at is one that was about a European constitution. This isn't something the Dutch can get behind as it would most surely eat away at their rights and privileges, but it has nothing to do with them wanting to leave the EU. Then the other referenda was held to vote about the Ukrainian wanting to enter the EU, and again, this had nothing to do with the Dutch wanting to leave the EU.

[Noradin]

EU countries regaining their sovereignty won't start a war. You can still have free trade, free movement (with proper vetting), and not be dependent on one country to dictate how your economy works. Austerity measures hurt the EU a lot, especially Greece. The countries economy and internal affairs should be decided by the local population, not people who have no idea of the conditions on the ground.

What did hurt Greece was going on a spending spree until they had nothing left.
The only difference between austerity and what they would have faced on their own is that with austerity they had a semblance of control about it while otherwiese they would simply have nothing.

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Except it is slowly falling apart because one country has more say than the others.

Yes, it is really problematic that countries like Malta, Cyprus and Greece (for example) get so much more say per capita than countries like Germany, France, and Italy.
That is what you meant, right?

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I swear the EU is presented as the Second Coming of Jesus the way some people talk about it.

Is that why you constantly try to crucify it?

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The only EU institutions that provide unequal say for different countries are those that attribute said say according to population. Should EU introduce electoral college system there that'd give people in less populated areas say dispropotional in the other direction? Because that kinda goes against the current concept.

The EU has such mechanisms which is why citicens of smaller member countries have proportionally more say on EU matter than those from the more populous ones.
People from Germany have the least say per capita in anything regarding the EU.

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Who pushed for austerity during the recession? Who was ok with essentially flooding countries with Refugees/Syrians(taking in more than they could take), without any kind of vetting of their background, or assessing if the economies could handle it?

You realize that the alternative to spending the little money that is available on the most important matters (= austeritiy) was spending no money of note on anything because what little was left would be spread too thin?

[Macaquerie]

A good idea on paper, but the problem is that this would essentially monopolize specific technological know-how. Knowledge = power and unless it would be sold for close to a non-profit price, I don't see it working. The EU is still a union of many nations without a common identity. Liberal democracy & similar ideas are to vague to unite the common people to abandon its own industry (for the supposed greater good).

The EU is no different now than it would be as a theoretical unified country though. If you look at countries that are similar in size or population to the EU as a whole, generally people adhere to state or regional identities and resent the interference of the elites holed up in the capital, daring to tell them how to run things in their town. Solidarity is always going to involve somebody sacrificing their own well-being to pick up the slack for someone else. If not for the EU, the same sort of problems would be happening at the national level, or the state level, or the town level, or wherever. Hell, even within your own family I'm sure there's somebody that's just a lazy bum whom everybody else has to help support, so this idea of everyone contributing equally is sort of a fantasy.

[Slant]

This is a greater thing that we ask of Europe than many of us Americans may appreciate. Do they need to reform their defense spending? Absolutely. Do they need to modernize and regain their edge? In specific ways sure. But the industrial and organizational questions are extremely non-trivial and could take a decade to work out... for good reason.

It can be done. Perhaps not right now, but we can start the process in time to be ready for 2030. For instance, instead of closing factories, you could produce in license like you already suggested. The only real downsizing would happen in R&D. If you have France, Germany and Spain produce the A400M, each on their site, you still have the rest of Europe to feed with A400Ms on top of those three countries. Granted, England is out, but as you said, this is about NATO more than it is EU. The EU is just the place where it needs to happen. And I think we're beyond trying to outcompete each other. We just need to stay ahead of the rest of the world to protect our interests.

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A good idea on paper, but the problem is that this would essentially monopolize specific technological know-how. Knowledge = power and unless it would be sold for close to a non-profit price, I don't see it working. The EU is still a union of many nations without a common identity. Liberal democracy & similar ideas are to vague to unite the common people to abandon its own industry (for the supposed greater good).

Just because R&D is done in France doesn't mean you have to keep it a secret in France. Especially not when you license it to German production facilities. Naturally they would get access to the research and blueprints. This is one of the bits where you need trust, but we've been prototyping multi-national vehicles and aircraft for long enough now to not worry about betraying each other. Typhoon and A400M are just the two most prominent examples here.

So, yes. Knowledge = power. That's why a technology transfer happens between EU countries that take part in these projects. And in this: Distributed knowledge = greater power.

I also think that the more people discuss the EU (it's not just happening on this forum), the more people get their head around the idea of a European identity. We've always had one, but instead of thinking of ourselves as nations that are in constant warfare with each other, we're beginning to think of ourselves as nations that prove multilateral cooperation to be successful. More successful than individually going your own way, at the very least.

[Hiricine]

People who are against globalization is like people who chooses to live in the past and against evolution. They are just kidding themselves.

And a country who adopts protectionism and isolationism is a country that lacks of confidence and avoids real solution to problems.

There was not a single advanced or powerful country/civilization in human history that developed, flourished or dominated because of isolationism or protectionism.

Globalization is the future of human society. That is a fact. We'd better learn to accept it and deal with it asap instead of denying it.

Globalism is a great idea if it means a Centralized government that prevents violent conflict and basically does nothing else. If the idea is to get the entire globe together then redistribute everyone's stuff then its a terrible idea.

The bigger the gov the more rights it can take away. The real globalism will happen when humans can escape governments economically to the point they can't fund themselves and break down the barriers that exist now, not in the forced umbrella we're seeing happen currently.

[Noradin]

Forgive me if I am wrong, but I believe the EU has to follow the direction of all member states in regards to how the economy functions, due to sharing a currency. So for instance, when Austerity was called instead of stimulus, for the entire union, every member country had to follow that, yes? Is Austerity/Stimulus right in every instance, for every country in the EU?

When the refugee crisis began, I believe the law disallowed for member states to block entry, is that correct?

No. You are not correct.
On all points.

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The issue is that you are not seeing the people when you speak of them. Just the country and its problems. The EU forced austerity on everyone, Greece already had the largest unemployment rate of any other EU country. What happens to people that cannot find work, and then have their social safety net cut? Should they just lay down and die, in your POV, because their government is horrible?

Yes, they forced austerity--spending what little money they had left on the most pressing concerns--instead of spreading it so thin that it wouldn't have made a difference anywhere. Do you think without austerity there would have been more money to spend? Where would that money have come from? A gift from some benevolent god?

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Who dug the whole, the people themselves, or their politicians? And does that negate their suffering (if they caused their own issues?)

Greece is a democracy, is it not?

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You can't pay with the euro in Sweden. You need to use the krona here.

I wouldn't say you cannot pay with euro, but nobody is required to accept them.
Some places do offer to take euro but you will have to pay a bit more.

[Deleted]

Just chiming in here, this isn't even happening in the Netherlands. He is trying to use the 2 referenda that where held to mean something completely different to support his cause. For everyone's information, the two referenda that he is trying to point at is one that was about a European constitution. This isn't something the Dutch can get behind as it would most surely eat away at their rights and privileges, but it has nothing to do with them wanting to leave the EU. Then the other referenda was held to vote about the Ukrainian wanting to enter the EU, and again, this had nothing to do with the Dutch wanting to leave the EU.

Yep, the sentiment on european matters isn't at all reflected in referenda on european matters. /sarcasm

Naturally the complete ignorance of the results of both referenda only fuels this sentiment, but just in case you'll get your head out of the sand any time soon;

http://www.express.co.uk/news/politi...U-Wilders-poll

[Noradin]

Skroe is correct or made a good point once again.
@Slant: no, not logistics for the netherlands, Radar development/weapon systems and diesel engined submarines? and Belgium for personal weapons? I mean they have FN already, so weapons + logistics?

Isn't that the German Navy's speciality already?
Small submarines, and reconnaissance and aerial surveillance (antimissile defence)?
I think I remember they were asked by the US for some of their frigates (they are called frigates but really are destroyers) to help in the afghanistan war, because they could cover the whole country from out on sea.
(Yes, I know afghanistan is landlocked and quite a distance from the sea.)

[Osmeric]

Be confident that europeans will never abandon their ideological fraternity.

Never is a very long time.

[Deleted]

Yeah, sure, portraying presenting facts to children as propaganda while having enough self-awareness to know that to have a point they have to put that word in quotation marks, which, you know, kinda shits on their argument, is a totes legit point. Fer sure.

I'm starting to wonder if you're being intentionally dense at this point. Again, this is basically the whole fake news argument all over, your calling things facts that clearly arent, like the "" fact "" there would be war without the european union. It's the sort of populistic fearmongering that people like you accuse all the baddie others of, hypocrite!

There's context and then there's wording. Nothing in your wording specified that the point you were making about referendums only in those two countries. Even if you did, that still would not translate to the following part of that post.Which is a Netherlands problem and not an EU problem. You have the same Article 50 rights as anyone else and it's not up to EU to invoke them for you.

I'm not going to repeat myself again, the tl;dr is that the netherlands won't get a nexit vote, not because the population doesnt want it but because the political elite doesnt want it (for things like personal aspirations as was with F. Timmermans). Again, I wonder if you're being intentionally dense here.

Sounds more healthy than posting inaccurate data like "European Parliament of 500 representatives has no real power" and using it to whine about the evils of ze EU.

I admit, I didnt look up the actual number of representatives, if you'll go back my point however I was saying that 500 were too many representatives on their own (I erred on the side of caution) . Obviously 700-something is an even stupendously larger amount.(to which even they themselves appear to agree; http://www.politico.eu/article/parli...er-regulation/ )

Anyways it's not up to me to decide for you when something's broken. I've made my decision and the majority seems to be on my side; Just ask brittain.

[Fuiking]

Isn't that the German Navy's speciality already?
Small submarines, and reconnaissance and aerial surveillance (antimissile defence)?
I think I remember they were asked by the US for some of their frigates (they are called frigates but really are destroyers) to help in the afghanistan war, because they could cover the whole country from out on sea.
(Yes, I know afghanistan is landlocked and quite a distance from the sea.)

Dont know about the german navy's speciality but I do know the small diesel submarines of the netherlands are quite often used for reconnaissance, and germans arent that stuck up about calling there ships frigates while actually they are destroyers.

Google made me look it up, germany and the dutch got ''frigates'' (Sachsen and De Zeven Provinciën-class) with similar roles, they even got the same radar but thats made in both cases by the dutch.

[Noradin]

Google made me look it up, germany and the dutch got ''frigates'' (Sachsen and De Zeven Provinciën-class) with similar roles, they even got the same radar but thats made in both cases by the dutch.

Yes, and they are selling two "destroyers" to Israel--which apparrently are being built using the exact same blueprints.
(The obvious reason Israel wants these are because they can intercept rockets in a very large area.)

[Kallisto]

It is already happening in Greece:

These guys again.

They're irrelevant, losing support year on year and only once did they go above 7% nationally. PASOK which imploded has a much better chance of becoming a main party then these guys do even having a sniff of being anywhere near power as a minor partner of a coalition.

[sarahtasher]

I genuinely don't understand why Greece can find Nazism okay, considering that the Axis occupation forces killed at least half a million Greeks directly or indirectly-which is likely much higher than the Turks over 5 centuries.


But then again, flying Nazi flag had always been an activity favored by people that would struggle to tie their shoelaces.

[kamuimac]

Source: https://www.ft.com/content/0b7b1616-...4?tagToFollow=

seems like US masterplan to destabilise middle east enugh to push milions of immigrants into EU is finally succeding - strong united EU was compatition - divided has no chance against US .

[sarahtasher]

It's fun to see the paranoia fuelled ''UE US KUNSPIRACY TO DUSTROY DUH WHITE RACE'' argue with people who scream ''UE GUNE ! UE MAGA ''

Presumably, you don't care about such details, as long as you can scream it's the Jews.

[Deleted]

Yep, the sentiment on european matters isn't at all reflected in referenda on european matters. /sarcasm

Naturally the complete ignorance of the results of both referenda only fuels this sentiment, but just in case you'll get your head out of the sand any time soon;

http://www.express.co.uk/news/politi...U-Wilders-poll

Right, right... how can i forget that two completely separate issues reflect perfectly how a third thing is perceived. Only right wing nut jobs will believe that diarrhoea, and of course fucking Wilders enthusiasts do not like EU, go figure.

[Deleted]

The problem with the EU is that it's an undemocratic

Nope.

totalitarian

Gods no.

state

Its not a state.

in which the elite benefits from all the imposed laws,

The polish plumbers are the elite?

the people have nothing to say or to vote in the matter

You sure?

and will continuously get screwed over.

Who, by Whom?

And then the ones in charge of the EU wonder why the people are losing hope in the EU.

Who, Where, Why?

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Yep, the sentiment on european matters isn't at all reflected in referenda on european matters. /sarcasm

accepting the constitution of the EU, would in some way have definitively settled the question on whether or not the EU is a country or not.
It was widely overblown in substance, but the style was clear and that was rejected.
In regards to the EU-Ukraine treaty, prominent opponents literally said it was a protest vote, and that they didn't care what the bill actually said.

[Deleted]

accepting the constitution of the EU, would in some way have definitively settled the question on whether or not the EU is a country or not.
It was widely overblown in substance, but the style was clear and that was rejected.
In regards to the EU-Ukraine treaty, prominent opponents literally said it was a protest vote, and that they didn't care what the bill actually said.

Your point being? Or are you agreeing with me?

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Right, right... how can i forget that two completely separate issues reflect perfectly how a third thing is perceived. Only right wing nut jobs will believe that diarrhoea, and of course fucking Wilders enthusiasts do not like EU, go figure.

Yep everyone not agreeing with your 'enlightened pc views' is a dumb redneck idiot following populists. This smuggness is part of the exhaustion people feel for the european project, in all your self-proclaimed superiority ppl like you cannot comprehend being wrong/ making mistakes. That is why increasingly desperate means are employed to combat this arch nemesis 'populism' of the political correct, because god forbid whatd happen if this illusionary bubble gets broken by something trivial like reality