Trump Accuses Obama of Wiretapping Trump Tower

[Hammerfest]

And Mark Dice has weighed in...



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I find it quite unlikely that Obama would do something like this, given his law school background.

So everyone with a law school background is clean and pure, like the wind-driven snow... interesting.

[Kaleredar]

So everyone with a law school background is clean and pure, like the wind-driven snow... interesting.

I don't think Obama "didn't do it" because of his law school background, I think Obama "didn't do it" because of the complete lack of motive or proof.

[Gamevizier]

Health wise, do you think he can make it that long?

it would be a much more honorable way to go if he gives up presidency position due to health issues rather than getting impeached or resign like Nixon.

[Skroe]

Skroe doesn't really need to worry on that front - if there is one thing that Trump's surge into the White House in DC has demonstrated, it's that Republicans will believe (and approve) what they are told to believe and approve - given their demonstrated behavior, the only beliefs that matter are those of the people in charge; and the hold of the religious right wingnuts, vapid populists, and Trump's loony (and greedy, and imperceptive, even by hyper-rich standards) compatriots is finger-nail thin, so far as it exists at all. Once Trump is gone (either at his own hand, or because the GOP evolves antibodies to his particular mass idiot-hijacking techniques), much like a school of fish, the body public of the Republicans will obediently turn, en masse, however they are directed.

If someone had told me the above even two years ago, I might have evidenced some skepticism and argued they were being too critical of the faculties of the typical Republican voter - but after watching them do complete U-turns, on issue after issue (from Russia, to Wall Street Investment Banks, to "states rights" (where they can simultaneously believe in both the federal government's right to stop something they don't like while vocally complaining that it is unable interfere with something of which they do approve)) in less than 24 months, all while blithely possessing less self-awareness than a brick, I have complete faith in their ability to, like the denizens of Airstrip One, believe whatever they are told to believe.

The ideals of the GOP (so far as it has any at all) are held in its animating members, both in and out of government - and, as Skroe regularly (and correctly) points out, they are, by and large, far closer to his ideals than those of the Trumpers (insofar as Trumpers have "ideals" beyond "whatever Orange Overlord says" and "I like simple explanations that make me feel good"); it's the fact that Trumpers have no coherent ideology (and what they might have laid claim to has been nuked down to glass by their Mango Messiah's actions in office) is going to make it extraordinarily difficult for them to actually change the course of "their" party in the medium- or long-term, aside from by crashing it - a situation exacerbated by what will likely be a very short (and weak) term in power and an associated failure to produce any new leaders from among their own (Trump-supporting politicians in general appear to be along for the ride, with the handful of exceptions far more likely to go down to well-deserved career graves with the USS Trumptanic than to ride on to greater influence themselves).

The Democrats do have some similar problems, and have lately been quite bad at growing the party or practicing politics, and its easy to make an argument that they're voters are far more credible than they ought to be, but they don't appear to have such a huge majority of the party eagerly willing to re-write their brains at the drop of a charismat as do the modern Republicans.

If you want perhaps the best evidence of this we're ever going to get, it's that at Trump's two most high profile public appearences in the past two weeks - his disasterous press conference and his not-SOTU - he used the words "fair trade" repeatedly, and the first time he said "fair trade... not free trade... fair trade".

Fair trade.

I'm sure ringpriest knows this, but for the benefit of everybody else... forget the principle of protectionism for a moment and look at the phrase. "Fair Trade" is a phrase that originates from the anti-globalization left. It first came to prominenence as a rhetorical (and political) counter to "Free Trade" around the time of the 1999 Seattle WTO meeting. "Free Traders" and "Fair Traders" tussled for years. on either side of 2000s. Both words kind of fell by the wayside during and after the financial crisis. But Fair Trade is back, and coming from the mouth of the Republican President of the United States.

That Donald Trump would adopt a phrase that originates with the far left, and use it so publically, and then expects (and gets) applause from Republicans in the audience (mostly polite appluse to be fair), just shows exactly what ringpriest is saying.

The issues of our time are so complex and no one ideology - left or right - can adequately address the entirety of any single one, let alone all of them. And frankly, they are too complex for most people. We have wonderful discussions about NATO modernization, for example, but in truth, a team of 10 professionals could write a 500 page white paper and barely scratch the surface of what needs to be done. So the general public latches onto nearly compartmentalized slogans, ideas and phrases. "Fair trade", "Free Trade", "the Banks", "the swamp", Obamacare". That last one's a great example... people react negatively to Obamacare and want it repealed but want the Affordable Care Act improved and sustained.

Republicans will pivot off of "Fair Trading" Trumpkins just as fast as they pivoted off of Tea Party hyper-libertarianism, or just as fast as some Democrats attempted to pivot off the Obama-corollary to Clintonite third wayism. If they see a winner, they'll run with it and try to advance some modest goals.

The 2018 budget is going to be fascinating... that's for sure. A $1 trillion infrastructure bill that will be a gigantic all you can eat pork buffet with bridges to nowhere and counter-terrorism centers in the middle of Wyoming? We'll see how many Republicans compromise themselves to vote for such a thing. Already Trump's plan to rip the State Department apart is pretty much DOA. Navy Shipbuilding is getting $~22 billion (still shy of the $25 billion it needs according to the CBO), but but where is that magical $2.8 billion coming from? More borrowing?

Trump effectively fucked himself long term. He promised things he can't possibly deliver because the President plays almost no-role in bringing it about. He can get away with, in week 5, claiming he's "kept his promises to the American people", and I'm sure he'll little the next year with mini-Carrier "deals", which lets be clear fellow "conservatives" in this thread, is government dictating a winner / loser in the free market, but at some point, people will get sick of watching Trump get other people (a couple dozen) a "better job" and start wondering when THEIR lot will get better. And with rising healthcare costs? Ain't happening.

That's why Republicans turning on Trump will be so easy in the end. They'll say "He lied to me about my job" or "he lied to me about my healthcare", and that'll make 2016 and cheering for things like "fair trade" and expanding entitlements vanish in a puff of sulfur. And then everybody will sign on to a new set of simple ideas and slogans.

[belfpala]

The same thing will happen with Trump. My prediction for his ruination has been a culmination of failures and scandals that is finally broken by "Trump's Katrina" in the next couple of years. I've been the one saying "getting rid of him won't be quick". And you know what will happen to that 87% number? It'll fall to the 40s and then the 30s and people will again, rewrite their history and say "Trump lied", "I was duped", "Oh I was never that into him anyway".

The Party is on a bender right now. It's that simple. It looked like it was about to annihilated and narrowly ... so narrowly, avoided a wipe out. So it has the euphoria of dodging a bullet. But the truth is, time and history is not on Trump, or his supporters side. It will wear off... failures and scandals accumulate. The rot will set in. Trump and Trumpism will fail, as these things always do.

When it falls apart - and it will - we'll be here to clean up the mess and throw the reactionaries out where they belong. Every Republican supporting Trump betrays themselves first and foremost.

May I stand with you on this, even though I'm about as far left as left can get?

I have some very intelligent, educated, charismatic, wonderful friends around the world. Some of them are right-leaning. And all of them have said exactly what you just did, in one way or another.

I say it like this: It looks like a mess, but I'll still wake up tomorrow, I'll still do my small part if I can, and I'll still trust that everyone else does that too. Optimism to a fault sometimes.

[Cthulhu 2020]

Because I believe that conservatism - not this crazy Trumpism nonsense - is a better way for the country and I'm not liberal? Republicans have made a cataclysmic mistake and thrown their lot in with an authoritarian populist. They'll live to regret it. I'll stand with the people who have been at the forefront of building this party for decades, who are firmly #NeverTrump. Even in defeat, we hold on to our principles and our dignity. There is no such thing as a conservative who stands with Trump today.

But what to make of that 87%? Everyone loves a winner. It's as simple as that. I'll say it again... want to see the best analog of Trump? It's the Iraq War. A war launched with 73% approval rating, that rose to 87% when Baghdad was taken. It it hovered in the high 50s for a few years, even getting Bush re-elected on a pro-War platform, until Hurricane Katrina struck and the public's faith in his Administration's confidence shattered. Support for the Iraq War, and everything else Bush did, precipitously collapsed. But what also happened was interesting: people retconned why they supported Bush and how long they supported the war. They changed their stories and forgot their vote of confidence. How many Republicans talk about casting a vote for Bush in 2004? Yeah.

The same thing will happen with Trump. My prediction for his ruination has been a culmination of failures and scandals that is finally broken by "Trump's Katrina" in the next couple of years. I've been the one saying "getting rid of him won't be quick". And you know what will happen to that 87% number? It'll fall to the 40s and then the 30s and people will again, rewrite their history and say "Trump lied", "I was duped", "Oh I was never that into him anyway".

The Party is on a bender right now. It's that simple. It looked like it was about to annihilated and narrowly ... so narrowly, avoided a wipe out. So it has the euphoria of dodging a bullet. But the truth is, time and history is not on Trump, or his supporters side. It will wear off... failures and scandals accumulate. The rot will set in. Trump and Trumpism will fail, as these things always do.

When it falls apart - and it will - we'll be here to clean up the mess and throw the reactionaries out where they belong. Every Republican supporting Trump betrays themselves first and foremost.

Yeah, we saw nearly the exact same behavior under Bush, and once his reign of incompetence was over, they all began denying ever liking him in the first place once the full view of his incompetence was exposed.

The weird part about what I've seen so far is... after the elections, Trump reversed his stance on the wall, when it became apparent that it just simply wasn't going to happen. He made the excuse that by wall, he meant a solid border control policy. And then all of the Trumpkins were like "Yeah, we knew all along that the wall was just a metaphor for solid border control!"

Fast forward to today and the Trumpkins almost seem to have forgotten this, and are once again talking about how he's going to build a wall.

One thing is for sure though, he won on the promise of creating rustbelt jobs (but even that is highly suspect). When they're let down because manufacturing simply isn't coming back, I wonder if they'll still vote to reelect or if their eyes will finally open.

[yetgdhfgh]

Pretty libelous statement you are making there Mr Trump iam sure you have evidence to prove your claim and not what you just read on Breitbart news!

[Breccia]

it would be a much more honorable way to go if he gives up presidency position due to health issues rather than getting impeached or resign like Nixon.

Trump will never resign. He will never admit he made a mistake, isn't loved, or lost at anything.

[Deleted]

I think Obama "didn't do it" because of the complete lack of motive or proof.

Yes, Obama was is steping down from power, why would he risk his legacy and become the new Nixon.

[Deleted]

Well, I guess Obama will be attending court soon then. Because Trump surely cares about justice, and since he has clear evidence of Obama's guilt, he'll go to court with this as soon as possible.

[belfpala]

Yeah, we saw nearly the exact same behavior under Bush, and once his reign of incompetence was over, they all began denying ever liking him in the first place once the full view of his incompetence was exposed.

In a strange double flip whip kick, I somehow like W more now than I did 15 years ago when I was actively protesting the Iraq mess.

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Well, I guess Obama will be attending court soon then. Because Trump surely cares about justice, and since he has clear evidence of Obama's guilt, he'll go to court with this as soon as possible.

I've been treating this entire thing as a joke all day. But really, it's a serious accusation. There's no way to swing it without someone going down.

[Deleted]

I've been treating this entire thing as a joke all day. But really, it's a serious accusation. There's no way to swing it without someone going down.

I don't know, if it was untrue and Obama knew this, could he sue for libel?

[Deleted]

The problem with Trump is that so many people for who knows what reason believe everything that comes out of his mouth even when it is easy to factually disprove. And every time a situation arises where even the die hard supporters can't defend him they either:

* Minimize the situation
* Blame someone else
* Change topic

Sooner or later his own fake news will catch up to him and he will do/say something so stupid, he won't be able to squirm out of it anymore.. hopefully sooner.

[belfpala]

I don't know, if it was untrue and Obama knew this, could he sue for libel?

No, I don't think so. It's almost impossible for a public figure to win a libel case.

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Sooner or later his own fake news will catch up to him and he will do/say something so stupid, he won't be able to squirm out of it anymore.. hopefully sooner.

I'm really good at fast talking, but Trump has me dizzy. Tell those half truths at a rate nobody can track... yeah.

[Deleted]

No, I don't think so. It's almost impossible for a public figure to win a libel case.

Shesh... Reminds me off the union boss that he attacked for doing nothing to maintain the factory in the US, when reality was that he had spent the last 6 months cutting to the bone to come to an agreement but couldn't compete with a tax and regulation reduction.

[Shadowmelded]

Well, I guess Obama will be attending court soon then. Because Trump surely cares about justice, and since he has clear evidence of Obama's guilt, he'll go to court with this as soon as possible.

I so hope Trump sues. Discovery would be interesting (read: fatal).

[belfpala]

Shesh... Reminds me off the union boss that he attacked for doing nothing to maintain the factory in the US, when reality was that he had spent the last 6 months cutting to the bone to come to an agreement but couldn't compete with a tax and regulation reduction.

Is the "he" here Trump or Obama? I've been having difficulty with pronouns today. Earlier I couldn't figure out of a comment was about Trump, Obama, Bush Jr., Clinton, Bush Sr., Reagan, or Carter. Turned out it was about Sessions.

Anyway, the golden age of farmers and factories is gone. Those jobs aren't coming back, or if they do they won't support a middle class lifestyle that can send kids to college on a single income. Not going to happen.

[Asotcha]

The problem with Trump is that so many people for who knows what reason believe everything that comes out of his mouth even when it is easy to factually disprove. And every time a situation arises where even the die hard supporters can't defend him they either:

* Minimize the situation
* Blame someone else
* Change topic

Sooner or later his own fake news will catch up to him and he will do/say something so stupid, he won't be able to squirm out of it anymore.. hopefully sooner.

I think that his little twitter-show today was a perfect prototype for that--all the major ingredients were there.

And it may be my inner-rogue noticing this, but in theory all someone would need to do to shove Trump off-balance in some way is to feed a nonsensical (but tinfoil hat-plausible) story to any right-wing radio-show/blogger with any kind of audience, and just wait for it to eventually pop back up as something that is inevitably retaliated against.

[belfpala]

I so hope Trump sues. Discovery would be interesting (read: fatal).

I interned at a law firm a long time ago. We sued EVERY major telecom player for patent infringement. The stack of documents they sent us took 20 people working overtime more than three weeks just to flag key words...

Discovery is fun(?)

[Deleted]

Is the "he" here Trump or Obama? I've been having difficulty with pronouns today. Earlier I couldn't figure out of a comment was about Trump, Obama, Bush Jr., Clinton, Bush Sr., Reagan, or Carter. Turned out it was about Sessions.

Anyway, the golden age of farmers and factories is gone. Those jobs aren't coming back, or if they do they won't support a middle class lifestyle that can send kids to college on a single income. Not going to happen.

It was Trump. He tweeted about how useless and poor job the union boss had done at the Carrier plant, in negotiating a deal. And as noted, that guy had work day and night for months, to try and cut away things so that the plant could stay in the US.