Final Fantasy XIV: Stormblood

[Nurvus]

Since SE loves to abuse nostalgia so much, they should at least do it right.

Final Fantasy 9 Passive Skill System is the perfect system for Cross Class Skills in FFXIV.
You have a certain amount of SP (based on Level), and each Skill requires X SP to allocate, allowing SE to tune each Skill perfectly.
It is infinitely better than having a static amount of skill slots and trying (and failing) to give all skills an equal value.

Plus, I think it would be nice if there were Cross Class Traits as well.
Combined with Cross Class Skills, it could enable different roles or simply different combat styles for the same Role.

FFXIV is lacking a lot in fun/variety-oriented customizability within each Job.

[StrawberryZebra]

The point I am trying to advocate is that I don't think the complexity of cleric stance warrants an extra button push nor do I think it feels fun to push a button back and forth to switch stances and be devastatingly punished if you make a mistake with that. Something like that should be organic, not a hard limitation. You could have a mechanic where casting a healing spell increases your next dps spell's damage by x% or makes your next DPS spell cost x% less mana, etc or vice versa.

The biggest issue with Cleric Stance is that, functionally, it's designed to allow healers to complete solo content. In that regard, having a permenant toggled buff makes sense. You're only going to be dropping out of it in emergencies. Any changes made to it, or even removing it, would still require Healers have some form of tool for soloing with. Your suggestion, while interesting for group play, would be a severe handicap for solo play.

Where it gets murky is when you start using it as a tool to improve your groups DPS with, then you've got to contend with toggling it on and off at the right times rather than just leaving it on. I agree that something could be done to improve it, but coming up with something that's simple, fluid and works well for both solo and group content is difficult. Just baking the damage in is the lazy way to fix the problem, and would lead to further issues later on. I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm routenely pushing 1k DPS with my Scholar in 4 man dungeons, being unshackled from Cleric Stance would allow me to squeeze out even more DPS without any reduction in my healing output.

While having it be a toggle is very awkward from a fluidity point of view, it ends up being the lesser of two evils. It's simple, easy to use and does offer some mildly interesting gameplay moments. It's not fun having to hit the button every time you want to switch but it's unfortunately the best solution the the problem right now.

I consider Stance mechanics themselves to be completely fine. WoW's Warrior stances work just fine from both a mechanical and a design point of view. GW2's Elementalist has 4 stances they can switch between for various effects, and that works just fine there too. They were both designed from the ground up to use a stance mechanic however, where FF14's healers got one as a band-aid fix for their solo play. I think the idea could work in FF 14 too but it would require the Dev team to fully commit to the idea. I'm sure they will at some point, but most probably for a new Job rather than all their healers.

Which is a shame, I think making Cleric Stance an actual Stance would be a fun way of integrating it better into the gameplay. Just by presenting it better to the player and by having it's own unique UI elements it would go from being something thats awkward to something that's potentially awesome to use. It would free up a lot of hotbar space for healers too, since all your DPS spells would be on your Cleric Stance hotkeys, which is one of the main aims behind the combat revamp I believe.

Instant spells have other mitigating factors to offset their power. I.e. cooldown, MP Cost, etc. Now if there is a free MP, instant cast, and no cooldown heal, I'm all ears, but last I checked something like that doesn't exist. Alternatively, you could argue that is the SCH niche, whereas the AST niche would be buffing other players to do more DPS, and the WHM's niche could be something else.

Lustrate is an MP free, Instant Cast, 1 sec cooldown heal. Though it is gated by Aetherflow, however you can still potentially cast as many as 9 of them back-to-back should you really need to. It's also a massive 600 potency, so it's got some serious healing power behind it. Being able to weave it seamlessly into a DPS rotation would be a headache for the balance team. Admitedly it does prevent you from using the Aetherflow on something else, but I tend to find that I've got to drop them with Energy Drain just so I don't waste them.

[Wrecktangle]

Cleric Stance is OGCD and can be toggled while casting other spells so there are no GCD issues.
The only minor affect it has on MP is a slightly lowered potency on healing/damaging spells depending on it being on or off respectively meaning you'd have to maybe cast another spell to "catch up" so to speak, which would result in slightly lower MP efficiency. If someone is somehow so bad at managing CS as to end up draining all their MP well before the end of the fight - which realistically I just don't see that happening in any conceivable way - then I dunno what to tell you other than this overall discussion isn't about that person anyway. Because they're simply that bad of a player. There are ways you can go out of MP in a fight, but Cleric Stance isn't one of them.

Let me preface by saying you and I haven't danced yet. 99% of my posts are designed to facilitate discussion on a given topic. I may not always agree with a stance, or I may argue an opposite stance that I personally believe in just to pass slow days at work . This also sometimes means I argue points that I may not be super well versed in. Just because I have no desire to level a healer doesn't mean I possess 0 insight into the mechanics of healing. It means that I offer unique perspective that may or may not be relevant.

I actually forgot CS was OGCD. Thank you for pointing that out. IIRC (and correct me if I am wrong) the "slightly lowered potency" is actually a complete reverse of your DPS/HPS stats thus, typically a bit more than "slightly" right?

Your point about using a catch up heal actually helps my argument more than yours IMO. In content that matters (defined as content that requires a healer in this discussion) requiring 2-3 catch up heals (over the course of CS lockout) is actually VERY significant. Especially if those heals are expensive ones.

Honestly that sounds more complex to me, not less. You could potentially make the argument that something like you suggest would make healing more engaging to some players, but I don't see it being easier for the average player. And really, if they aren't going to take advantage of CS, they wouldn't take advantage of any other system either. Some people are just going to stand there and only heal. Or there may be some who think "I just cast a heal, so now I am required to DPS, then I have to heal again, then DPS again..." which is arguably worse than someone just standing there are healing.

1) I'd be curious for you to go into detail over the suggestion (good, bad, the ugly, you're own personal suggestion for CS, leave it, fix it, change it, replace it, etc.)

2) Another piece of info about me. Player engagement is very important to me. You'll see a lot of my posts/questions framed in that context.

3) I think it is easier from a barrier of entry perspective due to their being less risk associated in participating/making a mistake. Think of it like this. Your high end player will know fight timings and optimize his usage of the mechanic. Thus no real change for them other than less of a hassle (IMO). Your average player might want to try, but is scared he could make a mistake. This system allows him to function at close to his existing power level, with the opportunity to engage more in-depth if they're willing. A lower skilled player will refuse to participate regardless, thus will see no intentional change.

4) I actually agree that if the presentation was that someone is "forced" to weave dps -> heal -> dps that could most likely be more hazardous. The way I envision the mechanic is that it stacks (maybe limit to 3x? 5x? Your opinion? so that if you cast Cure II -> Cure II -> Regen -> Stone III, your spell would be buff by 3x%. Let's say x =3%, so it would be 9% additional damage to Stone III and/or 9% less MP cost. Does that help clarify my intent?

Saying something isn't the smoothest is synonymous with neither saying it's clunky nor saying it's not fun. Because both of those are entirely subjective. And your overall argument seems to be one of assumptions based in ignorance, because as you stated in another post:

Are you honestly arguing to change something you've never used long enough to give it a fair shake?

So let me ask you this. Do you as a healer draw any fun from pressing or managing CS? If so what about it is fun? Do you believe that the current iteration of the spell is best? Do you believe there is no room for improvement?

I covered the other piece earlier, Just because I am not a healer doesn't mean that I have 0 insight into the healing realm. Not only do I have friends who are healers who discuss their gripes with me (in multiple games, not just FF14, or WoW), but I also have a part in how easy it is for someone to heal me (as an occasional tank player). I also understand the importance of minimizing the frequency and the intensity that a healer needs to heal me as a DPS player.

Sometimes asking the person with little/no experience is valuable, rather than asking an entire room full of yes men. Wouldn't you agree?

[Faroth]

Friend of mine who plays a tank primarily, but has healer, didn't think giving healers full power heal and DPS at all times was a good idea.

He also noted that, despite it not being at all at the top of the development balance priority in XIV, PvP would be even more of a nightmare as healers are tough to bring down already. Removing their primary detriment would make it far worse.

But maybe he's just another yes man.

[Kyriani]

I think its unrealistic to expect any major changes to Cleric Stance. I don't believe they will ever give healers full potency attacks and heals at the same time. It's a pipe dream to think that they would even consider it IMO. I expect Cleric Stance to go into Stormblood as is (outside of being part of the Shared Role Actions). What I am hoping for however, is that Stoneskin II is added to the Shared Role Actions pool as well. It's annoying that only WHM gets an aoe Stoneskin buff and AST/SCH have only single target. It would be a nice QoL change for AST/SCH if they did.

[Deleted]

I truly hope we dont get any changes to cleric stance. It rewards fight and class knowledge and can be very punishing if used wrong. Sounds like that would be the intended point since healers can dish out so much dps

[dope_danny]

Since SE loves to abuse nostalgia so much, they should at least do it right.

Final Fantasy 9 Passive Skill System is the perfect system for Cross Class Skills in FFXIV.
You have a certain amount of SP (based on Level), and each Skill requires X SP to allocate, allowing SE to tune each Skill perfectly.
It is infinitely better than having a static amount of skill slots and trying (and failing) to give all skills an equal value.

Plus, I think it would be nice if there were Cross Class Traits as well.
Combined with Cross Class Skills, it could enable different roles or simply different combat styles for the same Role.

FFXIV is lacking a lot in fun/variety-oriented customizability within each Job.

Technically thats how the pvp system works. You rank up and get points to not just unlock moves but alter their cooldown time and add new effects.

It would be a nightmare to balance but a pve version of it would be fantastic fun, even as a post leveling progression system

[Nurvus]

Technically thats how the pvp system works. You rank up and get points to not just unlock moves but alter their cooldown time and add new effects.

It would be a nightmare to balance but a pve version of it would be fantastic fun, even as a post leveling progression system

The current game is so easy to balance due to how streamlined it is.

Focusing on ensuring 2 or 3 variants per Job wouldn't kill the developers.
If anything it'd make them finally earn their pay.

[supermage]

Since SE loves to abuse nostalgia so much, they should at least do it right.

Final Fantasy 9 Passive Skill System is the perfect system for Cross Class Skills in FFXIV.
You have a certain amount of SP (based on Level), and each Skill requires X SP to allocate, allowing SE to tune each Skill perfectly.
It is infinitely better than having a static amount of skill slots and trying (and failing) to give all skills an equal value.

Plus, I think it would be nice if there were Cross Class Traits as well.
Combined with Cross Class Skills, it could enable different roles or simply different combat styles for the same Role.

FFXIV is lacking a lot in fun/variety-oriented customizability within each Job.

The SP system is already in the game. PVP feature.

- - - Updated - - -

I would like to know more about how they are going to clean up the button bloat myself. As a BLM, I use every spell in my arsenal. Not sure how they are going to clean that up without taking things i actually like using away. Freeze and bliz 2 for example. I like to use freeze in my aoe rotation. Might not be the most effective way to do aoe damage, but i like the animation. Blizz 2 is so helpful in pvp. Gets those tank hemorrhoids off your butt.

[Nurvus]

The SP system is already in the game. PVP feature.

- - - Updated - - -

I would like to know more about how they are going to clean up the button bloat myself. As a BLM, I use every spell in my arsenal. Not sure how they are going to clean that up without taking things i actually like using away. Freeze and bliz 2 for example. I like to use freeze in my aoe rotation. Might not be the most effective way to do aoe damage, but i like the animation. Blizz 2 is so helpful in pvp. Gets those tank hemorrhoids off your butt.

Not really relevant for BLM, but SE should just give us proper keybinding.
GW2 came out long before FFXIV and it is honest enough to just make move sequences use the same Keybind.
SE rather make the game seem like it has MAAANY moves, and then give you a poor, laggy Macro system.
Sequences like True Thrust -> Vorpal Thrust -> Full Thrust should use the same Keybind (without requiring Macros).
Note: I know there are sequences that have branching effects, but that isn't an issue.

[StrawberryZebra]

GW2 came out long before FFXIV and it is honest enough to just make move sequences use the same Keybind.
SE rather make the game seem like it has MAAANY moves, and then give you a poor, laggy Macro system.
Sequences like True Thrust -> Vorpal Thrust -> Full Thrust should use the same Keybind (without requiring Macros).

This is something that most MMO's do to some degree. They heap lots and lots of buttons on you and mistake it for being depth. If we can learn anything from MOBA's it's that you can create an interesting and compelling play with as little as 4 Abilities. Ones like GW2 and Wildstar offer the player access to a large toolbox of abilities, but limit the number you can use at any one time to round 10 or so. Blade and Soul limits you to 8 at once, but has lots of contextual ones that are only availible when the conditions are met.

I think about 8-12 abilities is the sweetspot, where you can create interesting gameplay without it being pointless complex, but while not being totally simple.

That being said, I do think FF14 could use an "easy" DPS class. Beyond level 50 they start building up extra mechanics which add a lot to the Jobs complexity, but without really adding any depth. Looking at you, Dreadwyrm Trance. Scraping off some of the accretion and getting back to the basics for just one class be a welcome change from the countless other MMO's who just throw more and more mechanics at you over time.

[Nurvus]

That being said, I do think FF14 could use an "easy" DPS class. Beyond level 50 they start building up extra mechanics which add a lot to the Jobs complexity, but without really adding any depth. Looking at you, Dreadwyrm Trance. Scraping off some of the accretion and getting back to the basics for just one class be a welcome change from the countless other MMO's who just throw more and more mechanics at you over time.

I think the complexity FFXIV Jobs have is only made relevant by the lack of a proper UI.

1 - Lack of GW2/Wildstar "auto cast sequence" for basic combos as I mentioned above.
Even the fact some combos have ramifications would easily be solved. An A-B-C combo with an A-B-D variant could simply have the "D" "combo effect" include resetting the A-B-C keybind to the start of the sequence.
So if A-B-C combo is on Q and D skill is on E, you could press Q-Q-Q for A-B-C, or Q-Q-E for A-B-D, in the later case the next Q would be A again.

2 - Clunky management of the various job mechanics.
Most MMOs with reasonable amount of mechanic management provide the means to track them from the corner of your eye, some better than others, if anything through Add-Ons.

3 - FFXIV is such a clusterfuck in group content since even the weakest abilities are super flashy, that the already incompetent UI feels even worse.

[Wrecktangle]

Friend of mine who plays a tank primarily, but has healer, didn't think giving healers full power heal and DPS at all times was a good idea.

He also noted that, despite it not being at all at the top of the development balance priority in XIV, PvP would be even more of a nightmare as healers are tough to bring down already. Removing their primary detriment would make it far worse.

But maybe he's just another yes man.

To be fair my proposed change isn't in a vacuum. What if we reduced overall dps potency so that using the mechanic was overall a net gain, but not instantly? Alternatively, you could just tune all content going forward to accommodate the additional DPS/HPS. In PvE context I still haven't seen anyone bring a solid reason why it'd be bad. I've had people say it wouldn't be a good idea, but the reasons end at "it's not a good idea", How about why isn't it a good idea? I've seen people say that they can't "see" healers having it, but no actual analysis as to why they can't see it, other than its a pipe dream.

I think this mechanic allows for less timer driven healing fights and more organically occurring ones. Where damage is constantly going out, but less bursty, allowing for decision making on a per gcd basis.

Regarding PvP - same deal, just tune it appropriately. That said PvP in this game is pretty freaking terrible and boring and a hot fucking mess balance wise already. Maybe if they cleaned up the movement code it'd be a little bit better.

I think its unrealistic to expect any major changes to Cleric Stance. I don't believe they will ever give healers full potency attacks and heals at the same time. It's a pipe dream to think that they would even consider it IMO. I expect Cleric Stance to go into Stormblood as is (outside of being part of the Shared Role Actions). What I am hoping for however, is that Stoneskin II is added to the Shared Role Actions pool as well. It's annoying that only WHM gets an aoe Stoneskin buff and AST/SCH have only single target. It would be a nice QoL change for AST/SCH if they did.

So based on your analysis you think that CS is perfectly designed and implemented? You have no ideas or believe there is no way to improve it? Just out of curiosity why is it a pipe dream to even consider it? What about healers having instant access to DPS or HPS skills is bad? Obviously content be tuned to account for this (in both PvE/PvP).

I truly hope we dont get any changes to cleric stance. It rewards fight and class knowledge and can be very punishing if used wrong. Sounds like that would be the intended point since healers can dish out so much dps

So would my proposed mechanic. I'm simply shifting the punishment factor to an engagement factor. Sometimes complexity for the sake of complexity isn't the best solution. In which case I'd argue live CS to be far too punishing and not exactly fun to use. Proposed CS would certainly be more fun to use (due to additional fluidity, less punishing, more interactivity). Also it sounds as if you're implying that because a mechanic currently exists that it is the best possible iteration, which is a very one dimensional way of thinking. Mind you I'm not saying mine IS better. I am merely arguing if it COULD be better. Looking for actual reasons why anyone would prefer to play with a restrictive, unfluid mechanic, rather than a more interactive one. While I understand people may have "balance" concerns, I want to make it clear that is a variable that we cannot worry about. We are not game developers, it is not our job to worry about that, its theirs. We have to assume that they will nail the correct balance. Assuming they do, what are the actual downsides to my proposed mechanic?

[Binaris]

So based on your analysis you think that CS is perfectly designed and implemented? You have no ideas or believe there is no way to improve it? Just out of curiosity why is it a pipe dream to even consider it? What about healers having instant access to DPS or HPS skills is bad? Obviously content be tuned to account for this (in both PvE/PvP).

Cleric is not perfect. Far From it. Personally, I think it does add a very good level of depth to dungeon healing to really let healers shine. My issue I have with it falls in savage raids where it essentially becomes one main healer and one dps with a fairy. The raids are not tuned to really require 2 full time healers so the sch gets away with dots and broil spam. Overall I would want them to simply disable it in group content.

Cleric is already disabled in pvp. You can't do shit for dps in pvp because SE doesn't want you to. They want you to heal because that is your job. They need tighter tuning on things such as savage and extremes. Tune it so you want 2 healers and need both tanks. Fights like zurvan which are being solo healed and solo tanked on release are indicative of a failure of their tuning which leads to the solo healer culture.

[Kyriani]

So based on your analysis you think that CS is perfectly designed and implemented? You have no ideas or believe there is no way to improve it? Just out of curiosity why is it a pipe dream to even consider it? What about healers having instant access to DPS or HPS skills is bad? Obviously content be tuned to account for this (in both PvE/PvP).

Cleric Stance is fine as is, mechanically speaking. Its a button press that turns you from a potent healer into a potent DPS and back with a small window where you can't change. Knowing when its ok to hit that button (and when hitting that button will kill your tank), is a part of learning how to play a healer. I get that its annoying to hit that button only to see the boss start winding up his tank buster and wreck the tank while you stand their unable to do anything for a few seconds, but that's intentional. Group content is not balanced around healers dpsing at all so any dps they do is a bonus. Switching to Cleric Stance to get that bonus dps is a calculated risk. A risk that can be minimized by knowing the fight mechanics and learning when its safe to go for that bonus dps and when it isn't. It is intended to punish you for screwing up to dissuade you from trying to get that bonus dps in group content, because ultimately Cleric Stance's primary purpose is as a soloing tool. Its like asking for the removal of tank stances and allowing tanks to have their entire suite of mitigation and massive hp while also allowing them to do full on dps.

I get that you don't find that mechanic "fun". But not every mechanic we dislike can or should be changed just to appease a player (or players). There's lots of mechanics I don't find fun but I understand that my opinion doesn't (and shouldn't) always matter when it comes to game design. Sure I'd like to be an OP unkillable damage dealing machine that can heal to full at the drop of a hat, but that doesn't mean its a good idea or healthy for the game. Each role has its focus. Healers heal, Tanks mitigate and manage threat, and dps deal copious amounts of damage. That tanks and healers have stances that allow them to give up their role focus to also deal damage is a quality of life measure to make certain leveling and soloing on specific roles isn't too onerous.

If the whole of the game going forward has to be fundamentally altered/rebalanced for a suggestion to work, I feel that makes the suggestion unrealistic. There's also the fact that, WoW's every xpac bonanza of changes aside, game developers as a whole, and SE in particular, are notoriously gun shy about making any drastic changes to the game. Even changes players think is "simple" are not necessarily as simple to implement and/or balance as players might think.

I don't pvp, so I can't really comment from a pvp point of view in detail, but the fact of the matter is, in pve or pvp, if healers have fully potent dps and healing without any sort of on/off switch they basically have a huge advantage compared to other classes in group content. They already enjoy that advantage when soloing in FFXIV since solo content is rarely dangerous enough to require more than a non-CS'd HoT and then swap to dps mode. The fact that Scholars are likely to see some sort of nerf to either their DPS capability or their fairy's heals while in Cleric Stance, is a testament to how SE views allowing healers to have full dps and heal capability simultaneously.

Ultimately healers are not intended to be full time dps during group content. That we can be is a bonus... one that comes with a risk associated with it. A risk you have complete control whether to take or not. When I engage in new content as a healer, I use my CS sparringly (if at all) because I am unfamiliar with the content. I am still fulfilling my role as a healer though. If I can get some dps out at the same time, that's nice, but ultimately not what I am there to do. As I become more familiar and comfortable with that content, my time spent dpsing goes up because I know what to expect and when, thus minimizing the risks. Scholar has a distinct advantage right now over other healers, and I believe SE is looking to reduce that advantage in Stormblood, not bring the other healers up to where Scholars are.

Determining whether an idea is realistic or not is done by looking at the overall design of the game and the types of decisions the developers have made in the past. You see where their design mentality is at and can get a pretty good idea about what is or isn't on the table. It's like when I see people asking for Crafting Specializations to be completely overhauled. It's just not a realistic request. At most, we can expect SE to make existing specialization skills not suck like they do now, but not to fundamentally change what Specializations do and how they are designed. You're asking for a change that requires a rebalance of the entire game... and I think that's incredibly unrealistic to expect from FFXIV's developers based on how they develop content for the game, previous design decisions, and comments they've made about the future.

[Kazgrel]

I had been discussing the concept of turning the combos into more of a 1-1-1/1-1-2 type of system with a friend of mine last night, and we are both on board with that idea due to how many keybinds it would help to free up on various classes. It would venture toward making DRG rather mind numbingly easy for the basic combos, though (1-1-1 for Full Thrust combo and 2-2-2 for Chaos Thrust combo). That being said...such a design would free up 4 different keybinds/slots right there alone. If they want to add additional skills/abilities later on, then they will need to clean up the bloat, and this is one way to accomplish a fair amount of that.

Now, some slivers of light are being shed on skills being looked into. Unofficial translation of Korean Live Letter:

- Skills that don't see much use are being removed. The number of skills at 70 will be the same as we have now. (We knew this already)
- PLD's Rampart and DRK's Shadowskin are becoming the same skill (no mention of WAR's Foresight, but I can only imagine it will be as well), and will be a cross-role skill for tanks.
- Thunder II and III are being removed, and Thunder's potency will become stronger with levels (I'm guessing with traits?)
- Enochian will become a permanent buff, meaning you will always be able to use Fire IV unless they change more aspects of the job. However there will be ways for high-skilled BLMs to further increase their DPS by using certain skills in certain ways. No further details are revealed. My guess is it will have something to do with Blizzard IV?
- Skills that debuff the enemy are not going away, but will be adjusted for sure. (Yoshi-P specifically mentions PLD's Rage of Halone and MNK's Dragon Kick.) More information on what they plan to do with these skills will be shown in a future Live Letter so please look forward to itTM.
- Concerning raid compositions, he feels that after the AST buffs, any combination of healers is currently viable, but that doesn't mean we won't be seeing changes in 4.0. For tanks, they plan to do something (no specifics) about WAR OT.

MNK seems like a big offender for rarely used abilities; Featherfoot and Haymaker come to mind. One Ilm Punch also, but I can see use of that for pvp, so if anything, maybe have it as a pvp action (unless someone knows of something from savage and/or Coils where OIP is super duper handy to have).

Don't really see the point of the Rampart/Shadowskin change, other than I suppose they're going to replace those along with Foresight as "basic tank cd 1" or whatever. Kinda boring change, but then again, Foresight as an additional cross class skill now isn't all that exciting anyhow, so making it the same as shadowskin/rampart frees up a button for DRK and PLD. Looking at it that way, I'm kinda on board with that change.

Heh, I've been touting that particular kind of change to Thunder ever since the original Fanfest announcements for Stormblood. Just hope the MP cost and cast time don't go up from what Thunder has currently (T2 and T3 both have higher MP cost and longer cast time).

Uh...well then. I'm going to wait for further details on BLM before going full on HAM on this change. At face value...I tend to agree with it. When you have a design element of "you have to have this particular buff up or you can't do your rotation AT ALL", that's ungodly punishing unless you have just about every fight memorized...which is hard to do when you are learning them. On the other hand, such a change (at face value) sharply lowers the skill floor for the class. I'm not going to judge this idea any further, though, since I believe there's more details to be fleshed out pertaining to it.

Interesting they bring up Rage of Halone and Dragon Kick when those aren't the debuff-applying skills that folks are pitching a fit about...it's stuff like Storm's Eye, Dancing Edge, and Disembowel. Dragon Kick would fit in with those were there other classes that dealt blunt damage. Storm's Eye alone virtually guarantees WAR one of the two tank slots, especially if there is no NIN present (and even if there is one, it's a sizeable boost for NIN's personal dps if a WAR keeping Eye up is present).

Viable is one thing (because pretty much every job in the game is currently viable). Optimal is a whole other story. AST brings far more usefulness to a raid group than WHM could ever hope to currently, unless they start making a bunch of bosses that have swarms of stunnable adds. WHM gaining some sort of offensive group utility would be all that's really needed to help even things out, although I would wonder if such a thing would then teeter toward making WHM/AST the new "meta". I don't play/know SCH well enough to know what it would take to push it out, though, since it has as much of a grip on one of the healer spots as WAR does on one of the tank spots.

[StrawberryZebra]

I think the complexity FFXIV Jobs have is only made relevant by the lack of a proper UI.

No arguments there, the UI is very inflexible and extremely basic in what it offers you. Honestly, it would really benefit from addons just to help keep track of everything you need to. At the very least, the idea of job specific UI elements is one that's under consideration for Squenix, if anything comes out of it remains to be seen.

I'm overwhelmingly in favour of the game content being challeging for its own mechanics, not because you've got a lot of information you need to keep track of and lots of buttons to press in your rotation.

Now, some slivers of light are being shed on skills being looked into. Unofficial translation of Korean Live Letter

Some interesting things in here. Admitedly quite a lot of it is vauge ideas rather than anything concrete, and what is concrete seems to be focused on Black Mages. It worries me when Squenix do this kind of thing with their games, they do have a bit of a tendancy to overshoot their launch dates massively and end up releasing a game that is either completely different to what it started out as, like FF 13 versus, or just a complete and utter shit show from the word go; see FF 13 and the original release of FF14. They produce much better games when they've got clear design goals to hit.

It seems they're aware of some of the issues with needing to level other classes to get the abilities your main job needs, which is a huge step in the right direction.

Combining tank skills and putting them in a shared pool makes a lot of sense. I was a huge advocate of the idea a few pages back, and my position hasn't really changed much on it. I know that people will be screaming "homogenisation!" as the top of their lungs about it, but fact of the matter is that Jobs performing the same role require the same tools.

The buffs to being the adventurer in need caught my eye too. Right now, the GC Seals and Gil are practically worthless. If you're leveling the real prize is the bonus XP, ramping that up to the point that you could level a tank to 60, or indeed even 70, in a vastly shorter time frame would go a long way towards incentivising new tanks. Where it gets complicated is coming up with an incentive for people who are already max level though. An outrageous incentive like... I don't know, 10000000 bonus Tomestones per run would probably be too effective and just create a massive queue for all the tanks, essentially shifting the problem to another role. Too small an incentive, like the one we have now, doesn't do enough to encourage people to tank. Finding a middle ground where people are willing to tank, but not where the rewards are too obscene is difficult.

[Faroth]

"the UI is very inflexible and extremely basic"

You durn kids dunno how good ya has it! Why, back in my day.....

[Katchii]

To be fair my proposed change isn't in a vacuum. What if we reduced overall dps potency so that using the mechanic was overall a net gain, but not instantly? Alternatively, you could just tune all content going forward to accommodate the additional DPS/HPS. In PvE context I still haven't seen anyone bring a solid reason why it'd be bad. I've had people say it wouldn't be a good idea, but the reasons end at "it's not a good idea", How about why isn't it a good idea? I've seen people say that they can't "see" healers having it, but no actual analysis as to why they can't see it, other than its a pipe dream.

I think this mechanic allows for less timer driven healing fights and more organically occurring ones. Where damage is constantly going out, but less bursty, allowing for decision making on a per gcd basis.

Regarding PvP - same deal, just tune it appropriately. That said PvP in this game is pretty freaking terrible and boring and a hot fucking mess balance wise already. Maybe if they cleaned up the movement code it'd be a little bit better.



So based on your analysis you think that CS is perfectly designed and implemented? You have no ideas or believe there is no way to improve it? Just out of curiosity why is it a pipe dream to even consider it? What about healers having instant access to DPS or HPS skills is bad? Obviously content be tuned to account for this (in both PvE/PvP).



So would my proposed mechanic. I'm simply shifting the punishment factor to an engagement factor. Sometimes complexity for the sake of complexity isn't the best solution. In which case I'd argue live CS to be far too punishing and not exactly fun to use. Proposed CS would certainly be more fun to use (due to additional fluidity, less punishing, more interactivity). Also it sounds as if you're implying that because a mechanic currently exists that it is the best possible iteration, which is a very one dimensional way of thinking. Mind you I'm not saying mine IS better. I am merely arguing if it COULD be better. Looking for actual reasons why anyone would prefer to play with a restrictive, unfluid mechanic, rather than a more interactive one. While I understand people may have "balance" concerns, I want to make it clear that is a variable that we cannot worry about. We are not game developers, it is not our job to worry about that, its theirs. We have to assume that they will nail the correct balance. Assuming they do, what are the actual downsides to my proposed mechanic?

For me the main thing I would have against making Cleric Stance baseline is that the game would have to be balanced around Healers actually being able to contribute a significant portion of the DPS. I've seen far too many Healers complaining about feeling they have to DPS as it is, pushing them to do even more DPS in the future as an encounter requirement would likely cause the already relatively small population of them to get even smaller. On the flipside though, adding that much DPS to them could expand the population to those who didn't do it before....I'm not sure. Regardless, I feel like the way the game is balanced around healers now works just fine...sure it could be improved/ changed, but what impact would those changes have on the game? I'm not a big advocate of change just for the sake of change when it comes to game design when it profoundly impacts the fundamental way the game plays in those areas.

[Kazgrel]

Some interesting things in here. Admitedly quite a lot of it is vauge ideas rather than anything concrete, and what is concrete seems to be focused on Black Mages. It worries me when Squenix do this kind of thing with their games, they do have a bit of a tendancy to overshoot their launch dates massively and end up releasing a game that is either completely different to what it started out as, like FF 13 versus, or just a complete and utter shit show from the word go; see FF 13 and the original release of FF14. They produce much better games when they've got clear design goals to hit.

It seems they're aware of some of the issues with needing to level other classes to get the abilities your main job needs, which is a huge step in the right direction.

Combining tank skills and putting them in a shared pool makes a lot of sense. I was a huge advocate of the idea a few pages back, and my position hasn't really changed much on it. I know that people will be screaming "homogenisation!" as the top of their lungs about it, but fact of the matter is that Jobs performing the same role require the same tools.

The buffs to being the adventurer in need caught my eye too. Right now, the GC Seals and Gil are practically worthless. If you're leveling the real prize is the bonus XP, ramping that up to the point that you could level a tank to 60, or indeed even 70, in a vastly shorter time frame would go a long way towards incentivising new tanks. Where it gets complicated is coming up with an incentive for people who are already max level though. An outrageous incentive like... I don't know, 10000000 bonus Tomestones per run would probably be too effective and just create a massive queue for all the tanks, essentially shifting the problem to another role. Too small an incentive, like the one we have now, doesn't do enough to encourage people to tank. Finding a middle ground where people are willing to tank, but not where the rewards are too obscene is difficult.

I wouldn't even call a lot of this concrete...maybe a concrete mix waiting to solidify at best. The thunder change comes as little to no surprise. The rampart/shadowskin one seems...odd, at least on the surface. I believe there's more to accompany that change that has yet to be explained that will flesh that change out. Same applies to that Enochian change, which at face value is a tremendous change.

I'm not that opposed to tank homogenization...heck, some of the changes I've conjured up in my mind pertaining to PLD would essentially have it being the sword and board DRK, of sorts, to the extent I don't believe any of it would happen, but it would help to alleviate several of the deficiencies PLD has compared to the other tanks. The last sentence of that section, pertaining to WAR, makes me wonder if they're actually looking at nerfing WAR.

In addition to the Adventurer in Need stuff, they also hinted at there being a new form of "tank mount" available come SB, but haven't divulged any details on that. Maybe that ends up being something they combine together; "complete x amount of roulette duties as Adventurer in Need, receive a mount". Seeing how tank is AiN 99% of the time, that's 2 birds with 1 stone...although I almost wonder if people would find a way to game the system on that.