Over 2000 guilds stuck at 3/10 mythic, was tuning 7 bosses to 54 traits a mistake?

[Grimreaper]

It doesn't surprise me that your guild makes those sorts of decisions.

So because they're on the lower end of dps this patch (but still perfectly viable) you bench them. I feel sorry for their choice in guild and with your erroneous and frankly, embarrassing sentiment being enormously prevalent this expansion it riddles me not that they decided to quit, only why they remained so long. It's likely they felt that the spec they found fun was entirely broken and unplayable and thus all the work they had completed over the last few months purposeless.

It also wouldn't surprise me if you turned out to be the GL.

Our mages are all fire in their best kit aswell, and they all do less than 550k on (most) Krosus attempts, wich quite frankly is not up to par. Sure, the fury warrior pulling 750k+ makes up for it a tiny bit, but not nearly enough.

[GringoD]

Our mages are all fire in their best kit aswell, and they all do less than 550k on (most) Krosus attempts, wich quite frankly is not up to par. Sure, the fury warrior pulling 750k+ makes up for it a tiny bit, but not nearly enough.

That's why this tier sucks so much. We have 3 mages, but I don't want to bench them just because they are mages. That's just not right... not on the fourth boss.

[DakonBlackblade]

It isn't. The end. Those people you are talking about are currently progressing and eventually start failing when 6 bosses are over. Perfectly fine mythic doesn't need to be cleared by everyone and especially not by everyone within the first 2 months.

Right now it is. The end. Ppl are not suposed to get stuck midway, there used to be a smooth progression curve that is not there anymore cause so much of the player power is shifted away from actual mythic raid drops, if you luck out with your legendaries and your weekly box of goodies you gain more than farming 4-5 mythic bosses most of the time, and you add artifact power on top of that and then tune the bosses only to ppl with high AP locking the ones with lower AP out. AP went from means to progressively nerf content to a hindrance to anyone that doesn't have it and not at all a bebfit to those who do have it since content is balanced with having a certain AP level as baseline. Helyas kill count was an atrocity and demolished many guilds, if Guldan ends with 100 or so kills itll be just as bad if not worse.

Stop quoting 1 sentence and taking it out of context btw, either quote the post or don't otherwise youre just trying to warp the meaning of what youre quoting taking it out of context.

[Toybox]

Right now it is. The end. Ppl are not suposed to get stuck midway, Helyas kill count was an atrocity and demolished many guilds, if Guldan ends with 100 or so kills itll be just as bad if not worse. Stop quoting 1 sentence and taking it out of context btw, either quote the post or don't otherwise youre just trying to warp the meaning of what youre quoting taking it out of context.

People are meant to get as far as their character & skill allows them. Whether that's 10/10n, 3/10m, or server first doesn't really matter, especially when 7.2 will land & give the raid a rather large indirect nerf.

[DakonBlackblade]

People are meant to get as far as their character & skill allows them. Whether that's 10/10n, 3/10m, or server first doesn't really matter, especially when 7.2 will land & give the raid a rather large indirect nerf.

You do know the game has a power progression system in place since ever that is there to not let ppl get stuck midway right ? Of course there has to be a limit, you wont tune it for ppl that would take 7 months to clear the thing, but it used to be the case that ppl who go at about 1 boss per week/2 weeks could finish it with a couple weeks to spare. Those guilds are now strugling realy hard to kill 1 boss a month after they reach Augur and sometimes before they reach Augur. Right now its more on the lines that even top 200 guilds are worrying if they will ever get to kill Guldan in time. I mean they didn't get to kill Helya, you can say that its still technicaly time but it kinda isn't, while ToV was the thing the Helya kill count was quite frankly atrocious.

[Toybox]

You do know the game has a power profgression system in place since Vanilla that is there to not let ppl get stuck midway right ? Of course there has to be a limit you wont tune it for ppl that would take 7 months ot clear the thing, but it used to eb the case that ppl who go at about 1 boss per week/2 weeks could finish it with a couple weeks to spare. Right now its more on the lines that even top 200 guilds are worrying if they will ever get to kill Guldan in time. I mean they didn't get to kill Helya.

Like Naxx being cleared by just a handful of guilds, SWP the same pre-nerf, Yogg+0 clears before TotC came out?

If 7.2 is coming out a month or two before the next raid & provides an indirect nerf to the tier so that people in less hardcore guilds can get through it, then I don't see no problem at all with it being challenging up until that point. It's already confirmed by Blizzard that bosses 4-7 aren't balanced around 54 traits (which is an easy goal to hit at this point anyway), so that can't really be used as an excuse, either.

If people aren't good enough right now, then 7.2 will help them out. I don't see the need for a nerf now, and another nerf come 7.2. I'll say what I said a few days ago - The biggest issue with Nighthold's difficulty curve is Trilliax is too easy after CA, which is a reasonably challenging boss.

I'm willing to bet every guild in the top 200 still raiding at the end of the tier will drop Gul'dan.

[cFortyfive]

Right now it is.

there are more than 500 guilds above 5/10 so that

if you make it exclusive to top 100

is simply retarded bullshit.

ppl are not suposed to get stuck midway

Again - bullshit. There is no clear guarantee and there never was a clear guarantee. You get stuck at some point because you suck. Deal with it.
Yes the gearing and progression system changed and you can thank your peers for all the joys that come from it. Doesn't really change that you were never guaranteed to clear a raid.
You still have item progression helping you out - give it another two months and a couple likely nerfs and you'll have all the dogshitters come finally through and deal with incredibly hard encounters like krosus in ilvl 910.

[Riverr]

The burnout is tied more to the legendary system than the AP system, but the latter is exacerbating things.

I have gotten 7 legendaries. None of them are BiS single target. I'm a stubborn person who doesn't give up on things quite so easily, but most players just want to have fun. Farming for legendaries and getting complete crap after months of a true "grind" of doing old raids, mythic+, lower difficulties, LFR, etc. every week is very frustrating and not very rewarding.

This has caused some people to create second characters of their main (same class) and try their luck with their first 2 legendaries. 2 BiS legendaries are worth their weight in gold, often contributing more than the contributions from 35->54 traits. For super competitive people, seeing other people get immediate BiS and beating them without even being optimal or fully invested in their characters of the same class is a pretty effective combination for burnout.

As for the 3/10M barrier? If you've read through even half of the pages in this thread, you can see testimonials from people in 3/10M guilds and why they're not actually progressing past it. Low interest, reclears of heroic (since gear can titanforge to 925) taking lots of time, and a more casual atmosphere. If you digest those facts, Blizzard has designed the instance to allow the majority of raiders to be able to experience Mythic raiding up to the first 3 bosses. This is one of the more generous gates that Blizzard has ever done for highest level raiding, and there are basically 2 real gates in NH. Post-trilliax is first for the major casual boundary. Star Augur is the major progression boundary, which as has been noted earlier was admitted by Blizzard to have been tuned around 54 traits because the top guilds would have that. The last three are currently tuned around your guild being maximized with reasonable legendaries, full traits, good gear and coordination. These last 3 are also what guilds are spending the most wipes on, which is to be expected.

I think Blizzard has done a really good job with progression path in NH. Allowing people to adjust their trajectory in boss 4-7 according to their comp, gear, confidence, etc. helps struggling guilds and helps keep things interesting. Reminds me of Ulduar's design quite a bit (in how you had options for bosses within a tier of difficulty).

Thread should just end here. Mythic progression for the bulk of guilds should last until the next patch, otherwise there's no point in your character getting more powerful. Has always been this way.

[Deja Thoris]

Actually only requires 15 raid members to be doing 585k dps, as long as everyone is doing more than 585k you will get it, ofc this doesnt account for stupid shit like the demon hunters doing 900k+, allowing for a lax member or two.

Theres currently 11 rankings in the world above 900k.

95th percentile figures for fury (top dps spec on the fight) are 817k. Not sure where you get 900k from but its not really representative of much.

[honung]

I don't think any of the 4 bosses after Trilliax are overtuned, they're pretty difficult but it's Mythic after all. I think the issue is that Trilliax is too easy. I'd say that he's a good bit easier than Anomaly, and could do with being a bit harder. Issue is that you have a strange difficulty curve where Trilliax is undertuned and the jump in difficulty for the next 4 bosses is enormous.

Our mages are all fire in their best kit aswell, and they all do less than 550k on (most) Krosus attempts, wich quite frankly is not up to par. Sure, the fury warrior pulling 750k+ makes up for it a tiny bit, but not nearly enough.

Our Fire Mages did ~650K DPS on our most recent Krosus kill. While class composition is of course important, you also have to look at player gear and skill. Even if your class is on the weaker side chances are there is more DPS you can squeeze out of your character if you try hard enough.

[Heffy Dandy]

It's too easy, it's too hard.

Things will never change.

[Marrilaife]

I think the issue is that Trilliax is too easy. I'd say that he's a good bit easier than Anomaly, and could do with being a bit harder. Issue is that you have a strange difficulty curve where Trilliax is undertuned and the jump in difficulty for the next 4 bosses is enormous.

Not the first time they did this. Anyone remembers lootship in ICC? Casual guilds were even "borrowing" players who could unlock it (you needed LK kill back then to switch to HC and many casual guilds didn't have it early), because it was that much of a loot pinata everyone could do it.

[Yunaqt]

Not the first time they did this. Anyone remembers lootship in ICC? Casual guilds were even "borrowing" players who could unlock it (you needed LK kill back then to switch to HC and many casual guilds didn't have it early), because it was that much of a loot pinata everyone could do it.

I member

Essentially this argument crops up every expansion for when most average mythic guilds hit the bosses that become slightly more demanding be it DPS requirements or ability to handle mechanics.

[Deleted]

Our mages are all fire in their best kit aswell, and they all do less than 550k on (most) Krosus attempts, wich quite frankly is not up to par. Sure, the fury warrior pulling 750k+ makes up for it a tiny bit, but not nearly enough.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...Mage&spec=Fire

[Kikazz]

Theres currently 11 rankings in the world above 900k.

95th percentile figures for fury (top dps spec on the fight) are 817k. Not sure where you get 900k from but its not really representative of much.

it was a rough peak figure, didnt say it was actually doing 900k. ive just seen demon hunters on that fight sustain around 880-1.1m during their burst phases. unsure why there are no parses with that as a completion dps.

but my point still stands the fight requries and AVG of 585k dps from 15 raid members, as long as the dps are not below that and can do mechanics you will kill it.

[Deleted]

it was a rough peak figure, didnt say it was actually doing 900k. ive just seen demon hunters on that fight sustain around 880-1.1m during their burst phases. unsure why there are no parses with that as a completion dps.

but my point still stands the fight requries and AVG of 585k dps from 15 raid members, as long as the dps are not below that and can do mechanics you will kill it.

Melee dps wise warriors, dhs and rogues are nearly on par at krosus mythic. The only difference between them is that rogues usually dont push their dps by cleaving adds in melee range (esp on the last platform) - so pure singpe target dps wise rogues are still ahead a little bit.

Dhs are still pretty overrated. They are pretty gentle to gear and due to their fast ilvl upgrades the illusion comes up they are the strongest class around, but its usually pretty easy to out dps other classes with 5 to 10 higher ilvls. Now, where frostmages, furys and rogues are getting slowly 910 aswell, the time for dhs at #1 is fading slowly. Furthermore its everytime a surprise how hard dhs droping in dps if their burst minute is over (from 3mil to under 1mil in ~30sec).

Back to topic:

The issues are always the same. The missing ability to look several days weeks in the future, the missing ability to selfreflect, the missing ability to learn above a specific point. Week over week over week your raid becomes significantly stronger - at every fresh id your raid has more traits, higher ilvl and the most important your raid is better than last week (the more hours in cockpit, the better the pilot).

[Arcanines]

Lets take a look at Star Augur. He was killed prenerfed with 902 to 903 ilvls and 54 traits. This is the absolute minimum to kill him (at elitist gameplay of course). This means at this point you can withdraw traits with gear levels. If you jump from 902.5 to 905.5 you can drop your trait level from 54 to 51 to bring the same performance.

Guldan for example is first killed at 904.9 ilvl at 54 traits. With 910 ilvl you can drop your traits below 50.

So, if you are an elitist, there is no need for max traits to clear the whole dungeon, because any boss can be outgeared (sooner or later). In 5 or 6 weeks even guilds with only 3 or 4 bosses in NH mythic will have equiped ilvls above 907/908 due to the wf/tf system. If they have around 50 traits at this time, they have enough "numbers on paper" to clear the whole raid at mythic.

But besides all the circumstances which makes it easier for slackers to find an argument for their slacking - its still an L2P issue in the most cases.

That logic is so flawed. Thats not how math works. Now you're assuming the people know how to play like the top 20 which they dont. They will deal less dps than world first even with more gearw whilat having less traits.

[GringoD]

The issues are always the same. The missing ability to look several days weeks in the future, the missing ability to selfreflect, the missing ability to learn above a specific point. Week over week over week your raid becomes significantly stronger - at every fresh id your raid has more traits, higher ilvl and the most important your raid is better than last week (the more hours in cockpit, the better the pilot).

You're assuming here. Usually I'm optimistic about this, too, but not this time. I've got players to fill the raid that can't drastically increase their DPS, parents that tell me they have no time to farm 54 traits. Where is the minimum 15% raidwide damage increase supposed to come from? Krosus and Spellblade will slaughter us for months. My raid hasn't changed, the progression curved is what's fucked this tier.

[Deleted]

It doesn't surprise me that your guild makes those sorts of decisions.

So because they're on the lower end of dps this patch (but still perfectly viable) you bench them. I feel sorry for their choice in guild and with your erroneous and frankly, embarrassing sentiment being enormously prevalent this expansion it riddles me not that they decided to quit, only why they remained so long. It's likely they felt that the spec they found fun was entirely broken and unplayable and thus all the work they had completed over the last few months purposeless.

It also wouldn't surprise me if you turned out to be the GL.

what the fuck? so you have rogues/dhs available or fire mages (which can't swap spec), which one should we go in to krosus? (no, I'm not the gl and I don't like to be ever to avoid decisions like this)

[Toybox]

That logic is so flawed. Thats not how math works. Now you're assuming the people know how to play like the top 20 which they dont. They will deal less dps than world first even with more gearw whilat having less traits.

Well 140 guilds outside the top 20 have killed it, and the raid will get a nerf in 7.2 anyway. Yet to kill Augur ourselves, but I don't think the tuning is off for that fight.

Only thing really wrong with that fight is class tuning.