Mythic+ destroying casual guilds?

[Varjo410]

For several years now I've been with a guild that consists of adults with normal lives, jobs, children, basically most of the members' gametime was limited.
We're not the best players and we are ok with it but we've tend to progress at a steady rate through normal & heroic each tier 4 hours over 2 nights a week for years.
Legion/mythic+ killed all of that.

The problem that arose is that a smaller part of members that did have more playtime was together in Mythic+ all the time which created this gear/ap/legendary rift.
We went from steadily going through bosses on normal over the period of some weeks, gearing everybody up to having a part of our raid completely overgearing it and blowing through normal in 1 or 2 resets.
This sent us into heroic sooner then we were used to, and hitting gear roadblocks because the bigger part of the raid just wasn't ready for it. For the first time (as far as I can remember) this caused people being benched because of requirements which started a snowball effect. The top-end wasn't happy because they were having to carry people, the lower end felt frustrated because they just didn't have the time to ever catch up. People were quitting in droves because they felt they weren't bringing anything anymore to the raidteam. We lost so many people in the 6-7 months of legion the call came in recently to quit raiding, a guild that has been going for almost 10 years.

[shaunika123]

this isnt a mythic+ thing

your guild just has two different types of players trying to play together

that will never work.


either the players with more time have to suck it up or get a new guild

you cant blame mythic+ for giving people more things to do in their free time.

[Deleted]

Definitively not. I am in a mythic progress raiding guild and we do like 2-3 raids a week and literally half of our raid has less than 100 m+ cleared.
I on the otherhand did like 800+ m+ and maybe have 2-3 m+ items equipped. All of our raiders have atleast 4 legendaries. Basically everyone has ap level 54. Everyone is in the ilvl 902-908 range and it is all working out well.

mythic+ has nothing to do with it.

[hulkgor]

Seriously?

I'm actually dumbfounded you came up with this conclusion...

[Senen]

We're 5 people farming m+ on a weekly basis. Two or three members join us occasionally to do like one m+ dungeon every other week. Some don't even have time to do emissariy quests everyday so are falling behind in AP and legendaries. We're still raiding together no matter what. Granted, our guild is like 10 year old, we've been raiding together for years and we've already dealt with that "some people want to push it farther, some people just want to raid casually" bullshit a couple times. It's something all guilds have to face one day or another, this isn't because of m+.

[Santti]

Ummmm, no. You broke up because you tried to be more hardcore than you were. You fucked up by benching people, never should have went there. It might have been a disaster then as well, but I think you would have gotten off easier.

Whatever the reason, the difficulty existing wasn't the reason.

[Varjo410]

I both agree and disagree.
I agree with the fact we should have kept our original progress pace even if we were killing everything in one reset on normal.
I disagree with the statement m+ has nothing to do with it, because it did throw a working system out of balance. If people had extra time before spending it on alts, they are now spending it on m+/ap/legendary grind.
And I think some of you don't really get the term casual, as in log in only for raids (or/and half an hour for the emissary) no room for any m+ at all. I'm talking +-20 ilvl difference of optimized stats and the other group. Sometimes members couldn't make raids for a couple of weeks because of life/work, you could come back in no problem. That was our thing.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

M+ has brought our guild closer together in many ways. It gives us something to team up for between raids (no one needed to team up for H dungeons lol). It gives us a way to help weaker members of the team gear up and catch up. They may not be able to run with us all week, but we can make sure they get their 15s for the good of the overall raid team. On Tuesday mornings we're all checking in and rooting for each other, basing our satisfaction on how many total new 900 pieces (and legendaries!) we add to the raid team rather than on what we personally did or didn't get. It's a much happier overall focus.

M+ has been great for us.

[Deleted]

your guild just has two different types of players trying to play together

that will never work.

It worked perfectly before the Legion, why shouldn't it work now?

[Varjo410]

Seriously?

I'm actually dumbfounded you came up with this conclusion...

I'm sure you're dumbfounded by most things you come across in your life.

[Barnfargen]

I both agree and disagree.
I agree with the fact we should have kept our original progress pace even if we were killing everything in one reset on normal.
I disagree with the statement m+ has nothing to do with it, because it did throw a working system out of balance. If people had extra time before spending it on alts, they are now spending it on m+/ap/legendary grind.
And I think some of you don't really get the term casual, as in log in only for raids (or/and half an hour for the emissary) no room for any m+ at all. I'm talking +-20 ilvl difference of optimized stats and the other group. Sometimes members couldn't make raids for a couple of weeks because of life/work, you could come back in no problem. That was our thing.

What did the people with more time do in previous expansions? I would have to agree with the first reply that your guild had two different mindset groups in the same raid. It happens often but I wouldn't blame the mythic+. It seems like it boils down to certain folks not wanting to help the other folks and deciding to move forward.

[Elestia]

How has it taken you this long to experience this? If the people in control of your guild have expectations, it would be prudent to meet them.

Thats cool youve been together for 10 years. Maybe that means something.

[Huntaer]

It worked perfectly before the Legion, why shouldn't it work now?

This i'm wondering too.

My guild has been through the same thing, except it didn't involve mythic+. My guild, also 10 years old, is a social and leveling guild on our realm, and we have a little raid group.
We've been a group of social guildies that just wanted to play normal raids and do our thing, and at some point in EN, we done all bosses and cleared the whole raid in 1,5 hours. We had to move to heroic to keep the people entertained, but half wasn't "good enough" to go there. The top end didn't like carrying people, and after long discussions, they left the guild.
We're still doing our normal thing in NH now, but the day they left was a sad day

We've always done normal raids, for fun, together. Why not now :/

[Donair]

I both agree and disagree.
I agree with the fact we should have kept our original progress pace even if we were killing everything in one reset on normal.
I disagree with the statement m+ has nothing to do with it, because it did throw a working system out of balance. If people had extra time before spending it on alts, they are now spending it on m+/ap/legendary grind.
And I think some of you don't really get the term casual, as in log in only for raids (or/and half an hour for the emissary) no room for any m+ at all. I'm talking +-20 ilvl difference of optimized stats and the other group. Sometimes members couldn't make raids for a couple of weeks because of life/work, you could come back in no problem. That was our thing.

But it clearly wasn't a working system. It worked for the people who were raising children and rarely ever playing the game outside of logging on a couple hours per week to pretend to be raiders while riding on the coat tails of the people who were actually putting in the work. That was an obviously unfair system to the members of your raid who actually wanted to play the game. They were most likely having to supplement gaming entertainment elsewhere to fill their needs while you and your significant other were burping babies.

Now they can actually focus on WoW if they so choose and get more bang for their buck and you're here bitching about losing your free ride? Working beautifully imho. Legion design should have come about 5 years ago. Better late than never though.

[Sonnillon]

Mythic+ doesn't destroy casual guilds, but gives people - including the ones with loads of time on their hands - things to do when other members are not around to play with them, it's just the issue with people in your guild. Blame the people who cannot be patient rather then a portion of the game.

I will bring my own guild as an example. We raid cross realm/guild group, mature, people have life and various other responsibilities and we raid 6 hours total in a week (spread accross 2 days). When the expansion launch several people had more time in their hands to be online, got geared via mythic or WQ, cause they had time for it. Some (like me) was playing catch-up and still am.
Was never an issue for the groups members (specially the ones from the guild) if we had people along who didn't have their artifact at high level, best legendaries or gear from mythic+. Due to reasons our progression ceiling on current content is heroic. People who want to push more progression scratch their itch by joining PUGs and getting more gear and XP, cause they are just that good. In return bringing their knowledge and higher gear level to the group to progress further. No one complained, everyone was/is happy and if they want to move on to better guilds they will and we'll part ways as friends.

Basically the people in your guild who had more time then the rest are not team players or don't care about being patient and help other's out who lack the time to play. And those people don't really seem to get that if they want to progress they can join/create a PUG and then if they wish to help the guild out on their spare time. Mythic+ is not to blame, you always had the issue in the guild, just Legion brought it to light. The people in your guild who had time forgot the essence of the guild -being casual and progressing at slower pace.

- - - Updated - - -

This i'm wondering too.

Legion merely gave an advantage to people who have more time to invest being online. It just brought out the actual divide between people in a guild, cause now there is so much content thrown into your face that you can gear up and progress as fast as you please, while in other expansion you had limited options to do things.
There is nothing else to do for casual guilds other then 2 seperate groups for "high enders" and the "casual", people who do well leave or people who want slow progression leave. None are good options if people cannot work out a working solution among themselves.

- - - Updated - - -

But it clearly wasn't a working system. It worked for the people who were raising children and rarely ever playing the game outside of logging on a couple hours per week to pretend to be raiders while riding on the coat tails of the people who were actually putting in the work.

Your statement depends whether the active and "hard working" part was the minority or the majority. When there were lets say 1/3 or lower amount of people interested in more progression on higher level then I doubt that the slower people were keeping them behind and the "high end" people ruined the experience of progression for others. Understandable to some point when the majority were the ones who had loads of time in their hands. The thing is the people who want more can leave or PUG if the like the people in guild that much and leave the "casuals" to do their own progression at a pace suitable for them. Yes, it sucks for all parties, but if people want to move on somehow decision about leaving or splitting the groups has to be made.

[potis]

Your statement depends whether the active and "hard working" part was the minority or the majority. When there were lets say 1/3 or lower amount of people interested in more progression on higher level then I doubt that the slower people were keeping them behind and the "high end" people ruined the experience of progression for others. Understandable to some point when the majority were the ones who had loads of time in their hands. The thing is the people who want more can leave or PUG if the like the people in guild that much and leave the "casuals" to do their own progression at a pace suitable for them. Yes, it sucks for all parties, but if people want to move on somehow decision about leaving or splitting the groups has to be made.

But it does not work that way.

I have been hearing this about "casual guilds" that dont care about more progression, yet magically all these casual guilds that has issues are pushing heroic bosses and its always someone else's fault.

Why is it so hard to say "No" if you dont wanna go heroic and your problem appears?

I am in a casual guild where me and a few friends are the new guys we were met with the exact thing OP mentioned.

Most guildies raid logged and never farmed anything, most hit 35 points right where NH normal released while a few of us, including 1/3 of their IRL friends/older guildies (They are like 15-20 people) actually had 45 to 54 points and could do the minimum DPS/HPS requirements for NH HC.

Guess how many kept appearing for HC raids after normal was cleared in a day, yet despite wiping on easy mode bosses, where the problems were obvious, they never bothered to go "I dont want" "I am the problem it seems".

Nope, play like nothing is going on, wait to get carried as they always had before,i mean cant you see the other healer doing 2.3 times more than your healing with the same spec? But there was a catch!

Most of the people that were carrying them all these years literally quit after ToV was out, raid quality dropped like a bomb and the problem appeared.

And that 1/3 of their IRL friends group was close to giving up too cause you know, they know each other, they arent gonna tell them "Dear god you are useless", they lost any motivation to play and you could see, and hear it in their voice after the second week of NH HC where the problem was clear as day.

There is a difference when 15 people carry 2-5 people and 5-8 people trying to carry the other 10.

So yes the 1/3 hardworking (Was 2/3 before they quit after their raid break after ToV) despite being IRL friends was close to give up too, i am not even including myself and my 2-3 friends.


Legion has a system where Blizzard failed majorly.

NH bosses were tuned around specific requirements, which if not met you do not have a chance to progress no matter how hard you play cause you do not have the basic multipliers to do so.

Since they failed and added the AP farming, and tuned NH Heroic and above around that, the problem appeared while it always existed.

Most of these casual guilds have one same thing in common.

People that know the game, actually played at a certain level before, and cant anymore but they still wanna raid now and then.

[kamuimac]

For several years now I've been with a guild that consists of adults with normal lives, jobs, children, basically most of the members' gametime was limited.
We're not the best players and we are ok with it but we've tend to progress at a steady rate through normal & heroic each tier 4 hours over 2 nights a week for years.
Legion/mythic+ killed all of that.

The problem that arose is that a smaller part of members that did have more playtime was together in Mythic+ all the time which created this gear/ap/legendary rift.
We went from steadily going through bosses on normal over the period of some weeks, gearing everybody up to having a part of our raid completely overgearing it and blowing through normal in 1 or 2 resets.
This sent us into heroic sooner then we were used to, and hitting gear roadblocks because the bigger part of the raid just wasn't ready for it. For the first time (as far as I can remember) this caused people being benched because of requirements which started a snowball effect. The top-end wasn't happy because they were having to carry people, the lower end felt frustrated because they just didn't have the time to ever catch up. People were quitting in droves because they felt they weren't bringing anything anymore to the raidteam. We lost so many people in the 6-7 months of legion the call came in recently to quit raiding, a guild that has been going for almost 10 years.

so why didnt you say " look guys clearly we need 3-4 more resets of normal farm lets do that instead pushing hc hard" - its your officers fault for not managing raid team properly.

[Deleted]

Spoiler alert; the rift has always existed, mythic+ just brought it into the light and has not caused it.

It's really about expectations, which need to be managed properly...
You (your guild) failed at it and now you are trying to push the fault to mythic+.

[kamuimac]

This i'm wondering too.

My guild has been through the same thing, except it didn't involve mythic+. My guild, also 10 years old, is a social and leveling guild on our realm, and we have a little raid group.
We've been a group of social guildies that just wanted to play normal raids and do our thing, and at some point in EN, we done all bosses and cleared the whole raid in 1,5 hours. We had to move to heroic to keep the people entertained, but half wasn't "good enough" to go there. The top end didn't like carrying people, and after long discussions, they left the guild.
We're still doing our normal thing in NH now, but the day they left was a sad day

We've always done normal raids, for fun, together. Why not now :/

because people constantly change - when i reemeber myself as player from 10 years ago and 5 years ago it was completly different game style then nowadays - 10 years ago i was super social/casual 5 years ago i was ultra hungry for progress and nothign else in game mattered - if it meant i had to ninja gear , jump guilds , f... over people i would do it (like i sometimes mention in posts - you remember those lfg groups -"lfm 590 for garosh normal/hc loom farm" ? ye that was exackly how i was douchebag ) - but time changes and now im mega casual that barely touches lfr and have most fun fooling around on alts and i really geniuinly have ton of fun in game - have 0 urge to progress anything more then lfr.

time changes people thats all.

- - - Updated - - -

NH bosses were tuned around specific requirements, which if not met you do not have a chance to progress no matter how hard you play cause you do not have the basic multipliers to do so.
.

you are so wrong thought about it - it has always been like this in cata this "tragedy" happened on magmaw when kinglaslayers couldnt kill first boss , in mop this happeened on elegon when guilds that were on hc spine after all nerfs couldnt kill elegon on normal mode.

[franto]

Yes, i hate m+ too!

I use to compete in raids only by doing raids, now you need farm ap, legendaries to stick top dps ...