Mythic+ destroying casual guilds?

[Deleted]

I... don't see how that is refuting anything I said honestly. Sooo... yeah.

Any system without any caps on power that you get leads to unhealthy gameplay for everyone. Result: legion is awful to play for actual communities. Only players that are winning are wannabe best players in the world from LFR.

[Desperado558]

Any system without any caps on power that you get leads to unhealthy gameplay for everyone. Result: legion is awful to play for actual communities.

From what I am understanding, you are now discussing how this is negatively affected the absolute top of the top end guilds, those who require nothing but the best, having 4 alts, and requiring you to reroll if you get bad legendaries.

The topic at hand is casual guilds and how m+ affects them, but this is getting rather off-topic. (Though I won't refute that they do in fact negatively impact those few elite guilds)

[Maylander]

I see where you're coming from OP. As others have stated, this problem has always been there, but M+ definitely increases the size and scope of the problem. The gap between the most and least active will quickly become so big that the active ones are essentially carrying the least active, which might very well lead to the active ones either leaving or demanding that the inactive step it up. It'll get especially bad when the inactive have 1-2 legendaries and the active have 4-5+.

All in all, it's certainly easier to keep such a varied group of players together if there's a gear cap due to raids; their progression will still happen at more or less the same rate. Not sure what the solution is though. I'm not sure there is one. Legion is simply an expansion where loads of grinding outside raids will yield a huge advantage in raids, which wasn't really the case before (beyond farming for consumables etc).

[Deleted]

From what I am understanding, you are now discussing how this is negatively affected the absolute top of the top end guilds, those who require nothing but the best, having 4 alts, and requiring you to reroll if you get bad legendaries.

And it affects guilds with less commitment too. Because all numbers in mythic raiding are factoring what you could possibly obtain. EN didn't factor that - it ended up being a bit harder that raid finder for stronger guilds. If bosses in Nighthold won't require 54 traits and some titanforging luck then it'll be EN 2.0. And it won't be fun for more casual guilds.

[Desperado558]

And it affects guilds with less commitment too. Because all numbers in mythic raiding are factoring what you could possibly obtain. EN didn't factor that - it ended up being a bit harder that raid finder for stronger guilds. If bosses in Nighthold won't require 54 traits and some titanforging luck then it'll be EN 2.0. And it won't be fun for more casual guilds.

Okay maybe I'm just tired and therefore not understanding what you're trying to get at, but I still don't see how this factors in to super casual guilds losing members who end up playing more often and gearing slightly better than others. That said I think I'm going to get some sleep though, because this is getting really confusing.
@Maylander: that 'huge advantage' from loads of grinding outside of raids is somewhat going to be fixed in 7.2 with how they are re-working the current 20 tier end trait. That was the biggest of advantages, that huge straight % damage boost which will become absolutely trivial very soon after the launch of 7.2 and further levels of AK. The actual gear gained from M+ content almost exclusively went to the DE pile or vendor trash for most, it was all about the AP. Kinda disappointing to me actually about the gear though lol, I ran something like 650 M+ on my main last I checked, and the AP was a nice bonus but I've only been trying to get a damn trinket at 890+ :P

[Deleted]

Okay maybe I'm just tired and therefore not understanding what you're trying to get at, but I still don't see how this factors in to super casual guilds losing members who end up playing more often and gearing slightly better than others. That said I think I'm going to get some sleep though, because this is getting really confusing.

Good state of WoW: skill > hours. Killing bosses feels good.
Current state of WoW: hours >>> skill. Bosses are being killed after doing a lot of monkey job (grinding m+). And no, grinding m+ doesn't require any skill.

going to be fixed in 7.2

How it's going to be fixed? Path to obtaining infinite traits is even more stupid that current 54 grind and it's totally intended.

[Mohd]

The thing with Legion is that you need to grind artifact power, and the fastest way to do that, is when you get to 25 Artifact Knowledge (As of now) and you farm mythic+ dungeons as a boosting group.

Luckly you could form a group with your guild and do such activities, but those are inescapable.

[Deleted]

I really like m+ and would like to keep it.
I understand legion widens the gap between players with difrent gametime though.
Now the gear issue can be somewhat aleviated by putting in a lootsystem that basically allows the m+ players to get the best items in raid: titanforge etc so they still have a benefit for being in a raidteam with players that are behind.
The paragon levels is an issue that can't be solved by the guild. You could put insentives in like players above 50 ap don't need to use food for example and others are required to.

Luckily next patch will aleviate the AP issue somewhat.

[potis]

Same thing happened us like with most of the other guilds (for us group) who don't push high end progression - people with time grinded their gear up, while people who fell behind to various reasons lacked the gear. Now we are this point where people who have all they need/want log only for raids and play alts, while the people who have something missing try to get "up-to-date" outside of raid times when they are available. Everyone seems content and people who like the style we offer stick around, even if the progression is not the best.

But thats the thing.

According to what you said, the others are "slowly" trying to catch up.

This isnt the case in most casual guilds,as far as i have seen since i have a few IRL friends spread here and there on different guilds, ranging from "Casual mythic raiding" to "Semi-hardcore" mythic raiding.

As example the case in the guild i am in now.

Its not like they dont have time to play since when i randomly launch discord there they are playing some other game (Good for them, no one forces them to play anything) but they arent actually casual, they obviously game a few hours every night according to discord, all of them on different games, sometimes similar etc etc

They have the time to play any other game but doesnt have the time to do 10 WQs a day for 30mins for 2 weeks to get that 5-10% extra missing stats?

Or when its normal raid (Of course there is a normal raid to help gear them up) they decide to log an even more undergeared alt?

Thats where the excuse "casual" goes simply to disrespect.

But i understand them, the other 10-15 people that were carrying this 5-8 players have allowed them to be like that, therefor they dont understand they are being disrespectful.

But when those 10-15 people that were carrying their friends disappear like 50-60% of them..then you understand how it can start becoming bothersome.

At least there are a couple that rarely appear and when things start to get wipy they excuse themselves since they can see they should not be there. Thats respectful and intelligent but most arent like that.

[kamuimac]

Good state of WoW: skill > hours. Killing bosses feels good.
Current state of WoW: hours >>> skill. Bosses are being killed after doing a lot of monkey job (grinding m+). And no, grinding m+ doesn't require any skill.

thats very debatable - whether you want to play mmorpg then obvious choice is "hours >>> skill" as it was always since begining of rpg

you clearly are playing wrong game and would be much more happy in some fantasy- arcade game (that value "skills") not in mmorpg

[Sonnillon]

But thats the thing.
This isnt the case in most casual guilds,as far as i have seen since i have a few IRL friends spread here and there on different guilds, ranging from "Casual mythic raiding" to "Semi-hardcore" mythic raiding.

I don't mean to be disrespectful, but any guild that states that they are semi-hardcore are highly delusional and people haven't really figured out what they want to do push it or slack it....

Its not like they dont have time to play since when i randomly launch discord there they are playing some other game (Good for them, no one forces them to play anything) but they arent actually casual, they obviously game a few hours every night according to discord, all of them on different games, sometimes similar etc etc

They have the time to play any other game but doesnt have the time to do 10 WQs a day for 30mins for 2 weeks to get that 5-10% extra missing stats?


Or when its normal raid (Of course there is a normal raid to help gear them up) they decide to log an even more undergeared alt?

Thats where the excuse "casual" goes simply to disrespect.

I do agree that this is wrong, if one would bring IRL up as an excuse for not to play, then that shouldn't involve gaming. And from my PoV I would be pissed cause I myself am one of those who plays catchup on days/times outside of raid time when I actually do have extra time. Yes, I do play other games, but that is merely 2-5 hours split across weekend evening when I am visiting, after which I do a session of WoW.

Personally do me certain things - dungeons (mythic+), questing, gathering - make me just so freaking sleepy, cause I find it boring at it's present state. Maybe those people just cannot stand grind? Though I do understand that if they want to be part of harder content (without owning up and saying no that heroic/mythic is not for me) they just have to suck it up and run against walls while questing...

And for bringing an undergeared alt - lack of rules in place? Only time my group offers a carry to one of our group members is if they are re-rolling or coming back from a break and it's one of our "farm" runs. Outside of that - if they don't meet the asked requirements then nope, you won't do HC progression with us (or any bosses on "farm" which are struggle to us).

Maybe grind just bored the people out, they don't get invited or won't do mythic+ cause they are afraid of difficulty or failing, while they feel safer to fail with friends who "have never judged"? Just interesting that all those issues with people and wedges between guild members are poping out now... while we got over ours few expansion ago... guess we sucked more back then that it was evident that something was wrong.

Now the gear issue can be somewhat aleviated by putting in a lootsystem that basically allows the m+ players to get the best items in raid: titanforge etc so they still have a benefit for being in a raidteam with players that are behind.

If people in given guilds bitch and moan about being benched cause the top part thinks that they suck, then any loot council style looting method will make them even more pissed off, but at the same time reward the good people idd. However the other side is... that people no matter the chance of TF/WF/sockets/extra stats/legendaries just get boring of progressing through normal or easy heroic bosses which they have already killed, while the "slower" people are failing on easy stuff. It's the matter of patience, which most people just cannot bring to the table and if you are not patience enough to be part of a mixed group like this then problems will arise which can only be solved by reaching a decision - 2 raid groups or going on with one with certain progression/standards in mind.

The paragon levels is an issue that can't be solved by the guild. You could put insentives in like players above 50 ap don't need to use food for example and others are required to.

I don't see that working if you're dealing with a guild like OP and several others belong to. People probably won't use food, flask w/e not anyway (maybe generalizing too much here though), so punishment/carrot like this wouldn't have that much of an effect.

- - - Updated - - -

thats very debatable - whether you want to play mmorpg then obvious choice is "hours >>> skill" as it was always since begining of rpg

you clearly are playing wrong game and would be much more happy in some fantasy- arcade game (that value "skills") not in mmorpg

As wow is my only mmo I played (won't really count the others I've tried as playing) then yes time > everything else, cause you can have the skill, but w/o gear you still will struggle no matter how good you are.

[Deleted]

you clearly are playing wrong game

So WoW wasn't an mmorpg before the Legion, am I right?

As wow is my only mmo I played (won't really count the others I've tried as playing) then yes time > everything else, cause you can have the skill, but w/o gear you still will struggle no matter how good you are.

There was always a possibility of gearing up returning good player from scratch. Not the case with AK/legendary luck gating. Now you'd need to lend good account for this player instead.

[cuafpr]

make sense the few people that had time for mythic + don't feel like they are getting their time /effort back out of the raid now and want something more. I doubt this is a wide spread issue, but likely not just your guild. As a team you need to talk it estabalish goals, IE we will clear HC content but not push into mythic, we will clear normal until every one has 4p, then skip it and move to HC. If you feel you over gear the content you can bring an alt of the same role long as its gear is ready for the content etc... Once laid out if people don't like it they will need to move on and if needed you will have to rebuild the team.

[Siph]

If the more active players want to play with the guild, they will play with the guild. Let them join raids on alts for a while as the rest catches up. The problem is not anything game related, it's people being selfish pricks. Bench people because they are behind on gear because you want to push content you cant handle yet? Pathetic.
.

[Polarthief]

OP, you are literally blaming content that exists in the game as something that killed your guild. Not that the content is too difficult, too easy, or whatever, but the fact that it LITERALLY EXISTS IS WHAT KILLED YOUR GUILD.

Fact: You had some more hardcore players than you realized. Either they have to suck it up or find a new guild. Sorry you chose the stupid move of benching the less hardcore players and now everyone bailed, but blaming content that exists is just beyond ridiculous.

[phalk]

For several years now I've been with a guild that consists of adults with normal lives, jobs, children, basically most of the members' gametime was limited.
We're not the best players and we are ok with it but we've tend to progress at a steady rate through normal & heroic each tier 4 hours over 2 nights a week for years.
Legion/mythic+ killed all of that.

The problem that arose is that a smaller part of members that did have more playtime was together in Mythic+ all the time which created this gear/ap/legendary rift.
We went from steadily going through bosses on normal over the period of some weeks, gearing everybody up to having a part of our raid completely overgearing it and blowing through normal in 1 or 2 resets.
This sent us into heroic sooner then we were used to, and hitting gear roadblocks because the bigger part of the raid just wasn't ready for it. For the first time (as far as I can remember) this caused people being benched because of requirements which started a snowball effect. The top-end wasn't happy because they were having to carry people, the lower end felt frustrated because they just didn't have the time to ever catch up. People were quitting in droves because they felt they weren't bringing anything anymore to the raidteam. We lost so many people in the 6-7 months of legion the call came in recently to quit raiding, a guild that has been going for almost 10 years.

The same thing happened with my guild.
Eventually, those who felt they were carrying people left and the guild continued on.
I'm my guild's guild master. I understand what you are saying perfectly, there was a LOT of pressure from those with more time on their hands to "cut" people they thought were being carried. However I didn't think it was fair to adapt the guild to their needs so they eventually found other places and left.
The raid ended up turning healthier when this happened in the end.

[Doffen]

Well I do most m+ of everyone in my guild, by far, yet I am just in the middle of the ilvl in raids. So gear doesn't make the difference. The difference is that some people in the guild only do daily heroic dungeons, emissarys and then do alts, and wait for the raid. While other people do mythic + on a daily basis and focus alot more on progression, both on their character and in raids.

This happens mostly in casual guilds(wich I am in) and its caused by different mindset towards the game. Some people think progression is awesome and work towards that, while others just want to do raids with the guildies and do social stuff.

We had a couple of people leaving the guild because they meant that we had this elitist group in the guild because we were a core of people doing lots of mythic+ in the start, and we have had it up for discussion lots of times. And this happened now in Legion and not before, when it was practically the same thing. We were like 5-7 people who did all mythics in WoD for valor every week, while others didnt. Then mythic + came with legion and some people started murring about it. IT WAS THE SAME THING, but people didn't speak up before mythic + arrived. And when people bring this up, I always ask them if they are tired of the game. And everyone then says yes. THIS is the core problem nowadays, people are tired of the game, and find excuses on why the game is the problem.

[phalk]

Well I do most m+ of everyone in my guild, by far, yet I am just in the middle of the ilvl in raids. So gear doesn't make the difference. The difference is that some people in the guild only do daily heroic dungeons, emissarys and then do alts, and wait for the raid. While other people do mythic + on a daily basis and focus alot more on progression, both on their character and in raids.

This happens mostly in casual guilds(wich I am in) and its caused by different mindset towards the game. Some people think progression is awesome and work towards that, while others just want to do raids with the guildies and do social stuff.

We had a couple of people leaving the guild because they meant that we had this elitist group in the guild because we were a core of people doing lots of mythic+ in the start, and we have had it up for discussion lots of times. And this happened now in Legion and not before, when it was practically the same thing. We were like 5-7 people who did all mythics in WoD for valor every week, while others didnt. Then mythic + came with legion and some people started murring about it. IT WAS THE SAME THING, but people didn't speak up before mythic + arrived. And when people bring this up, I always ask them if they are tired of the game. And everyone then says yes. THIS is the core problem nowadays, people are tired of the game, and find excuses on why the game is the problem.

Well, I think in part it is the game's fault.
Since Mythic+ can provide high item level gear some people feel they HAVE to farm Mythic+ content and I disagree with this mindset. Several members of my guild during legion (I've got a lot of rotativy in this expansion btw) asked me to force people into mythic+ because they believed it would be impossible to progress only though raids.

[ingsve]

NH HC can be easily done with 880ilvl and 35Traits. This can be achieved by playing less than 1h a day. Mythic+ has nothing to so with your problems.

You are severely underestimating the skilllevel of people in the lower brackets of casual raiding. NH HC might be easy for people with 880ilvl and 35 traits if they are competent raiders who know their class well but when you have half a raid full of clueless people, clickers and people parsing at 10-15% of their ilvl then NH HC is not easily done.

[Doffen]

Well, I think in part it is the game's fault.
Since Mythic+ can provide high item level gear some people feel they HAVE to farm Mythic+ content and I disagree with this mindset. Several members of my guild during legion (I've got a lot of rotativy in this expansion btw) asked me to force people into mythic+ because they believed it would be impossible to progress only though raids.

While I agree on some of this, its part of another problem. Not for my guild at least. People think they have to farm mythic + to stay relevant, while they dont really need to do that. Few mythic+ is really enough outside of raids.