Sub Rogue opener with Shoulders? And general sub rogue questions

[Deleted]

Hello,

I am currently playing sub rogue, have bracers, shoulders, COF, T19 4p and I am playing with Anticipation.

I am wondering what the optimal opener would be?
Also: Since I am playing with Anticipation, do I just play like the first 5 combopoints don't exist and play only with the 5-10 ones (for the fatality buff).
I also have no ES relics as I can not find any, if I were to find some, what kind of ilvl difference would still be accepted? Is a 860 ES relic better than a 890 Gutripper forinstance.

Hope you can help me out.

[synthetikv]

ES Relics drop from Xav, Guarm, Eye, and BRH. No ES in Nighthold QQ.

ES is worth about 37 ilvls last i checked, although I don't know how up to date the spreadsheet is.
Gutripper/Demon's Kiss worth about 25 ilvls so a 890 gutripper is better than a 860 ES.
Here is what I'm basing that off of though, http://roguedpsguide.com/rogue-legion-wow-relics-pve/
I've followed this for my relics and it hasn't steered me wrong.

[elfporn]

Hello,

I am currently playing sub rogue, have bracers, shoulders, COF, T19 4p and I am playing with Anticipation.

I am wondering what the optimal opener would be?
Also: Since I am playing with Anticipation, do I just play like the first 5 combopoints don't exist and play only with the 5-10 ones (for the fatality buff).
I also have no ES relics as I can not find any, if I were to find some, what kind of ilvl difference would still be accepted? Is a 860 ES relic better than a 890 Gutripper forinstance.

Hope you can help me out.

You're one lucky sonuvabitch. I would love to have that setup.

For opener, it should be pretty close to normal except you will vanish earlier.

ProPo and SB@1sec-->SS-->goremaw-->NB-->SD->SS(macro this)[should be at 8+ cp here]-->evisc-->SS-->evisc-->SS-->vanish-->SS-->evisc-->SS-->evisc-->SD->SS-->etc

You should be able to evisc 3-4 times before doing 2 SS's in a row again.

The opener above sets you up to generate finality:evisc with 8+cp almost every time.

The answer to your second question is yes, for evisc, only generate finality when at 8 or more CP, nightblade doesnt' benefit from this so that doesn't matter.

Macro SD-->SS and macro stopattack into sprint and use spring on CD.

1 ES 2 gutripper will be your best setup with bracers/cof.

[Arker42]

I use Anticipation as well to take advantage of Evis Finality and to further leverage the burst window created by the Mantle. The opener I've had success with is:

SB + SS -> SS (-> SS, if you have Energy) -> NB -> SD + SS -> SS -> Evis (gives you Finality) -> SS -> SS (you are now stocked on CP and have Finality) -> Vanish > Evis (HUGE damage) > Evis -> SS -> SS -> Evis -> etc.

[elfporn]

I use Anticipation as well to take advantage of Evis Finality and to further leverage the burst window created by the Mantle. The opener I've had success with is:

SB + SS -> SS (-> SS, if you have Energy) -> NB -> SD + SS -> SS -> Evis (gives you Finality) -> SS -> SS (you are now stocked on CP and have Finality) -> Vanish > Evis (HUGE damage) > Evis -> SS -> SS -> Evis -> etc.

Your opener is 5x SS 1x finisher before you evisc once - youre overflowing cp by 5+. Try mine, you should be able to fit in 3-4 more eviscerates

[Deleted]

Thanks for all the information. Clearing up the opener is really helpful.

[Arker42]

Your opener is 5x SS 1x finisher before you evisc once - youre overflowing cp by 5+. Try mine, you should be able to fit in 3-4 more eviscerates

I'll try it out. I should note that the number of SS I use varies on how many CP I generate (may cut out a few and Evis more). Generally, I try to have a pimped out Finality and nigh max CP ready to fly before hitting Vanish

[Xvolte]

You're one lucky sonuvabitch. I would love to have that setup.

For opener, it should be pretty close to normal except you will vanish earlier.

ProPo and SB@1sec-->SS-->goremaw-->NB-->SD->SS(macro this)[should be at 8+ cp here]-->evisc-->SS-->evisc-->SS-->vanish-->SS-->evisc-->SS-->evisc-->SD->SS-->etc

You should be able to evisc 3-4 times before doing 2 SS's in a row again.

The opener above sets you up to generate finality:evisc with 8+cp almost every time.

The answer to your second question is yes, for evisc, only generate finality when at 8 or more CP, nightblade doesnt' benefit from this so that doesn't matter.

Macro SD-->SS and macro stopattack into sprint and use spring on CD.

1 ES 2 gutripper will be your best setup with bracers/cof.

You waste your master of shadows and goremaw energy with that opener. You're capped for the global that you use on that first shadow dance. It's easily 30-40 energy that you don't use.

I've been using an opener similar to @Arker42 and it's been working pretty well.

[elfporn]

You waste your master of shadows and goremaw energy with that opener. You're capped for the global that you use on that first shadow dance. It's easily 30-40 energy that you don't use.

I've been using an opener similar to @Arker42 and it's been working pretty well.

If i'm lusted, i have the energy to spare and it's not a consideration, if i'm not lusted it's not wasted. It's the opener after all, and with shoulders you're pumping as much as possible into every gcd you can.

[T18Z]

If i'm lusted, i have the energy to spare and it's not a consideration, if i'm not lusted it's not wasted. It's the opener after all, and with shoulders you're pumping as much as possible into every gcd you can.

Have you simmed to see if that opener is better? I personally wouldn't opt to use goremaws that early unless shown otherwise, nor would I waste my MoS energy return. It's not really about having the energy to spare, moreso about using all the energy we can and wasting as little as possible for the benefits later on.

[elfporn]

Have you simmed to see if that opener is better? I personally wouldn't opt to use goremaws that early unless shown otherwise, nor would I waste my MoS energy return.

as i said, with legendary shoulders you're pumping as much damage into a small window as possible. (you could even go for a third burst window with sprint)

On the pull, if you're lusting, you're energy capping, or close to it, for nearly the entire duration, if you're not lusting, goremaws will provide enough energy for the opener.

Also worth noting that 100% crit on goremaw is a shitload of damage, 850k+ easily. It could also be used during the aforementioned third burst window for more energy there. I prefer it early to setup 9-10cp so that i can evisc every other GCD until i dance again, and generate 8+cp finality every time.

So while normally, you're much more careful with your energy, when you have the shoulders buff rolling, you should be dumping as much damage into each GCD as possible, on the pull that means you may lose a small amount of energy during the initial burst.

A comparable situation would be dancing during ring+soulcap in WoD, overcapping CP slightly was fine as long as you filled each GCD with damage.

[Discostick]

You're one lucky sonuvabitch. I would love to have that setup.

For opener, it should be pretty close to normal except you will vanish earlier.

ProPo and SB@1sec-->SS-->goremaw-->NB-->SD->SS(macro this)[should be at 8+ cp here]-->evisc-->SS-->evisc-->SS-->vanish-->SS-->evisc-->SS-->evisc-->SD->SS-->etc

WTF why would you waste a global on goremaws?

The opener with shoulders is, double evis into normal rotation

The main thing is to make sure you're getting vanish off after your first dance and utilizing your sprints vanish asap.

Please don't listen to this guy, goremaws should just be saved to refill energy or for free CP in case your only generators are Backstab and have no dances, never use goremaws while dancing and or at full energy.

PLEASE STOP TELLING HIM TO NIGHTBLADE WITH SHOULDER PROC, GET YOUR 2 EVIS OFF THEN NIGHTBLADE

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...&view=timeline

[elfporn]

WTF why would you waste a global on goremaws?

The opener with shoulders is, double evis into normal rotation

The main thing is to make sure you're getting vanish off after your first dance and utilizing your sprints vanish asap.

Please don't listen to this guy, goremaws should just be saved to refill energy or for free CP, never use goremaws while dancing and or at full energy.

sigh, don't listen to this guy.

goremaw's isn't "wasted" when used during the shoulders buff. It's significant damage, only evisc will do more.

You're right that goremaws should be used for energy. Let me go see if i'm not energy capped for the first 40 seconds of the fight, maybe i can use goremaws after that? losing a use isn't too bad, right? /sarcasm

You should never evisc more than once during subterfuge (the first three seconds after vanishing).

[Discostick]

sigh, don't listen to this guy.

goremaw's isn't "wasted" when used during the shoulders buff. It's significant damage, only evisc will do more.

You're right that goremaws should be used for energy. Let me go see if i'm not energy capped for the first 40 seconds of the fight, maybe i can use goremaws after that? losing a use isn't too bad, right? /sarcasm

You should never evisc more than once during subterfuge (the first three seconds after vanishing).

I 100% proved you wrong with one of the highest parses on mythic Krosus (mind you everyone does the same rotation, the first couple are just Chinese/Korean) and you're going to sit here and say I'm wrong? Stop giving people bad advice, you look like a fool


Please post your logs so I can see the fluidity and impact of your rotation, please I would love to see it, and I will check your casts to see if you linked someone elses logs.

Goremaws is definitely a fucking wasted global in a dance, you can use it outside of a dance, you can't use shadowstrike outside of a dance you idiot, hence why goremaws should be used as a replacement of backstab, also it's faster CP generation than backstab so it can get your finishers off faster without MoS running out and getting you back into a dance. Also, as you can see in this log, the player used Goremaws in conjunction with using Symbols of Death to make up for the huge energy loss that dumb ability takes.

God damn I get so frustrated when people give people bad advice.

[elfporn]

I 100% proved you wrong with one of the highest parses on mythic Krosus (mind you everyone does the same rotation, the first couple are just Chinese/Korean) and you're going to sit here and say I'm wrong? Stop giving people bad advice, you look like a fool


Please post your logs so I can see the fluidity and impact of your rotation, please I would love to see it.

Goremaws is definitely a fucking wasted global in a dance, you can use it outside of a dance, you can't use shadowstrike outside of a dance you idiot.

i'm sorry, if you're chaining the shoulders buff for 18-27 seconds, nightblade will deal a SIGNIFICANT AMOUNT OF DAMAGE

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...70&end=4032470

There's my opener on krosus when i was playing sub (switched to ass this week)

As you can see it's pretty damn comparable to santtu. Despite being 902 vs 908, and him having shoulders/boots vs my belt/trinket. Even resource wastage is comparable, which is what we're arguing about.

We're still working on krosus.

[Discostick]

i'm sorry, if you're chaining the shoulders buff for 18-27 seconds, nightblade will deal a SIGNIFICANT AMOUNT OF DAMAGE

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...70&end=4032470

There's my opener on krosus when i was playing sub (switched to ass this week)

As you can see it's pretty damn comparable to santtu. Despite being 902 vs 908, and him having shoulders/boots vs my belt/trinket. Even resource wastage is comparable, which is what we're arguing about.

We're still working on krosus.

No you're not, you linked me a 79% wipe, no shit your damage is still going to be high, especially with belt/trinket.

You fucking linked me a 40 second fight, he was at your burst DPS for the entirety of the fight. Your fucking belt was your third overall damage.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...pe=damage-done
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...pe=damage-done

These are more realistic parses for you, and it appears, your parse is low because your rotation sucks.

[elfporn]

No you're not, you linked me a 79% wipe, no shit your damage is still going to high, especially with belt/trinket.

You fucking linked me a 40 second fight, he was at your burst DPS for the entirety of the fight.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...pe=damage-done

This is a more realistic parse for you, and it appears, you're parse is slow because your rotation sucks.

please take a look at the log, i linked the duration of bloodlust because that portion of the fight is what we're talking about, i don't give a shit about the rest of the fight and i don't have a krosus kill on mythic to whip out.

i compared the first 40sec of santtu to mine and it was damn comparable. My opening 15sec was 18m vs his 19m, and while i do indeed have the belt pushing that starting bit up, i still shouldn't be matching him.

The trilliax kill this week was...shitty, to say the least, humorously so. one of the worst execution ranks ever because fuckups (of course)

Looking close, he's casting nightblade 10 seconds in...., he's getting 5 eviscerates, 9 shadowstrikes, i'm doing 5 eviscerates, 7 shadowstrikes, he gains 34cp, i gain 32. i wasted 2, he wasted 0. i gain 335 energy, waste 55(MoS), he gains 382, wastes 16(props).

So he's squeezing in slightly more shadowstrikes with boots, surprisingly not overcapping CP, i'm doing the same with fewer SS.

He should be able to fit in atleast a third, if not 4th evisc in the first 9 seconds.

[Discostick]

please take a look at the log, i linked the duration of bloodlust because that portion of the fight is what we're talking about, i don't give a shit about the rest of the fight and i don't have a krosus kill on mythic to whip out.

i compared the first 40sec of santtu to mine and it was damn comparable. My opening 15sec was 18m vs his 19m, and while i do indeed have the belt pushing that starting bit up, i still shouldn't be matching him.

It's not fucking comparable though, you have belt/trinket he doesn't.

So your burst is going to be high no matter what you do because of those items no matter how stupid your rotation is, but also what you don't understand is that your overall performance in the entirety of nighthold is subpar because of how shitty you play.

I understand sometimes boss fights go wrong, I play with 400 ping and have lagged out during all our mythic clears, but that doesn't mean I'm not doing almost 200k more DPS than you on Krosus even though I'm playing from an entirely different continent.

[elfporn]

It's not fucking comparable though, you have belt/trinket he doesn't.

So your burst is going to be high no matter what you do because of those items no matter how stupid your rotation is, but also what you don't understand is that your overall performance in the entirety of nighthold is subpar because of how shitty you play.

I understand sometimes boss fights go wrong, I play with 400 ping and have lagged out during all our mythic clears, but that doesn't mean I'm not doing almost 200k more DPS than you on Krosus even though I'm playing from an entirely different continent.

If i'm so fucking bad, then stop being a dick and be constructive.

i know i can improve, and i'm always comparing myself, even after every pull.

If you feel moving goremaws and nb outside subterfuge is better, then fucking say so instead of calling me bad and bitching and moaning when i defend myself.

And yes, that fucker santtu should be doing more damage than me, even if i have belt and trinket, he's fucking running shoulders/boots, int he first 15seconds of a pull he should be fucking amazing, and he's not.

And please, if you're doing 850k on krosus as sub, please link me the logs, i'd love to worship your fucking douchebag ass.

[T18Z]

If i'm so fucking bad, then stop being a dick and be constructive.

i know i can improve, and i'm always comparing myself, even after every pull.

If you feel moving goremaws and nb outside subterfuge is better, then fucking say so instead of calling me bad and bitching and moaning when i defend myself.

And yes, that fucker santtu should be doing more damage than me, even if i have belt and trinket, he's fucking running shoulders/boots, int he first 15seconds of a pull he should be fucking amazing, and he's not.

And please, if you're doing 850k on krosus as sub, please link me the logs, i'd love to worship your fucking douchebag ass.

The boots aren't a burst legendary by any means, yours are. The belt is practically a 30% increase for it's duration, it's really not comparable.