Do you wish LFR was removed from game?

[TheFirstOnes]

You, talking about others being entitled, and yet deciding who can play what and deserve what.

You, complaining about LFR, yet admitted using and being AFK being carried by the same "entitled" players in LFR.

I think you're new to these threads mate. Allow me to tell you about the Legend Himself, JAYLOCK!

Now, here were his legendary competetors...

Oh wait, it seems he has no competetors...

CAUSE HS TROLLED HIS WAY THROUGH THE LEGENDARY TRIALS!

That's his legendary story.

[Jaylock]

You, talking about others being entitled, and yet deciding who can play what and deserve what.

You, complaining about LFR, yet admitted using and being AFK being carried by the same "entitled" players in LFR.

Lets step back for a moment here.

1) If everyone is subjected to the same raid difficulties (aka with Normal and above being the only difficulties), how is that "deciding who can play what?" You can play and do the raids, you just have to be willing to join groups instead of being automatically put into a group with random strangers.

2) Going AFK in LFR is a common side effect of there even being LFR in the first place. If Blizzard is intentionally going to design bosses to be beat by only 10 people actually trying, what incentive do the other 15 have to perform if thats the case?

[TheFirstOnes]

LFR never should have been introduced into the game in the first place.

Even Ghostcrawler now admits that it was a mistake to add it to the game and destroys what the soul of an MMO should be.

At this point, I would be okay with the losses of some entitled players if they removed it because it would actually bring the game back to a BETTER more goal oriented point like it used to be in BC and partly WoTLK.

LFD should go too imho.

Meh, idk...

I mean, I like LFR, but I also DESPISE IT....hmmm....

[Sansnom]

1) If everyone is subjected to the same raid difficulties (aka with Normal and above being the only difficulties), how is that "deciding who can play what?" You can play and do the raids, you just have to be willing to join groups instead of being automatically put into a group with random strangers.

Oh. Sure. I am sure you are just the loveliest player around, most helpful player out there, extending your hand to invite all those players to your PUG group and show them how to raid. None of the "filthy casuals", "LFR heroes" from you. Nope.

2) Going AFK in LFR is a common side effect of there even being LFR in the first place. If Blizzard is intentionally going to design bosses to be beat by only 10 people actually trying, what incentive do the other 15 have to perform if thats the case?

That is great. You justify the action is okay and acceptable. That the action itself is not in question but rather the situation allows it and therefore it is okay?

[Deadite]

Lets step back for a moment here.

1) If everyone is subjected to the same raid difficulties (aka with Normal and above being the only difficulties), how is that "deciding who can play what?" You can play and do the raids, you just have to be willing to join groups instead of being automatically put into a group with random strangers.

2) Going AFK in LFR is a common side effect of there even being LFR in the first place. If Blizzard is intentionally going to design bosses to be beat by only 10 people actually trying, what incentive do the other 15 have to perform if thats the case?

So you actively contribute to how bad LFR is and then complain it is bad? That is some staggering logic.

[clevin]

Err... even if i don't do it, it's still an awful experience? You enjoy pain or something? Is there some sort of enjoyment you extract from say... star augur wipes cause people don't switch to the add, for example? Does it feel like a good use of your time when you do it for the Nth time and people still don't give a f***?

Ok, let's go with "you enjoy pain". Yes, i knew in advance what your answer would be.

If YOU don't do it, YOU aren't experiencing it, QED.

If you are doing it and it sucks and you hate it, own your decision and either deal or... don't do it again.

If you're worried about what others experience, mind your own business

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So you actively contribute to how bad LFR is and then complain it is bad? That is some staggering logic.

You've met Jaylock before, yes?

[Deadite]

You've met Jaylock before, yes?

What little i have seen him post i know that what ever he claims then the opposite is usually true.

[Jaylock]

So you actively contribute to how bad LFR is and then complain it is bad? That is some staggering logic.

If Blizzard allows it, then why not?

Its not allowed in Normal mode because the mechanics require that you actively do something other than going afk. That, and you will be kicked from a pug or guild group doing normal if you aren't contributing.

Blizzard knows LFR is a failure, but they continue to push it, and at the same time, continue to design it around 10 people actively doing something while the other 15 are afk.

All i'm saying is, the ramifications of removing LFR wont be as bad as people on these forums seem to make it. And im okay with losing some players for the betterment of the game.

[Sansnom]

If Blizzard allows it, then why not?

When did Blizzard allow people to AFK in LFR?

Blizzard knows LFR is a failure, but they continue to push it, and at the same time, continue to design it around 10 people actively doing something while the other 15 are afk.

It is main failure is that it did not encourage people into higher raiding. They should have known this earlier and really did not need LFR to prove it.

All i'm saying is, the ramifications of removing LFR wont be as bad as people on these forums seem to make it. And im okay with losing some players for the betterment of the game.

Oh. I am think the ramification could be huge.

But there lies the ramification. Without a viable endgame content, the non-raiding players would leave. Blizzard would see that the percentage of raiders is low. It always has been. They will need to make a business decision of either letting these players go and continue their expensive raid development or refocus on alternative content. This would most likely impact raid development since it affect the least amount of players.

So, the potential end result of a greatly reduce number of raids, changing the end game content direction.

[Jaylock]

When did Blizzard allow people to AFK in LFR?



It is main failure is that it did not encourage people into higher raiding. They should have known this earlier and really did not need LFR to prove it.



Oh. I am think the ramification could be huge.

But there lies the ramification. Without a viable endgame content, the non-raiding players would leave. Blizzard would see that the percentage of raiders is low. It always has been. They will need to make a business decision of either letting these players go and continue their expensive raid development or refocus on alternative content. This would most likely impact raid development since it affect the least amount of players.

So, the potential end result of a greatly reduce number of raids, changing the end game content direction.

Non-raiding players weren't raiding to begin with. They were content and happy with the features they did enjoy.

Can you believe it? I played WoW vanilla for almost 10 months before I found out about raiding. 10 Months.

I enjoyed the aspects of learning about the game world, questing, doing my epic paladin mount quest, trying to do a timed stratholme run to get my upgraded tier 0.5 set, exploring, etc.

The point is, the majority of players don't care about raiding. Putting LFR there was just a way to allow these players to see and experience end game, not putting it in, players would have continued to do what they always have done... just enjoy the game for what it is.



Lets look at a scenario.

What if Blizzard designed the game to be as time intensive as it was in Vanilla. You had to level up your weapon skill, questing was actually challenging and took time, dungeons took longer than 20 minutes, and you had to devote at least an hour to a proper dungeon run, gear wasn't just thrown at players, and you actually had to earn it...

What if we went back to that? Players would have a ton more stuff to do because it took more effort and brain power to accomplish the tasks you would want to complete. The point is, speeding up the game to the instant gratification game that it has turned into has hurt the game.

wouldn't it feel much more rewarding and epic if it took you 4 months into an expansion to get your first epic piece of gear, and you had to do several quests and other obstacles to get it?

[Jaylock]

The only problem with LFR is the people that complain about LFR being in the game.

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Short answer is this: that game would be a huge waste of money, people would quit playing and it would die.

Vanilla WoW worked because there was no other real competition. There are dozens if not hundreds of MMO's now and if a game like that came out, as I'm sure there are MMO's that have come out like that, they would be a horrible investment for the company, people wouldn't play them and they would die. There's a reason WoW is the game it is now, the biggest subscription based MMO on this planet, and not the game it was.

Why do you think a game like that would die? Do you feel that way because you are entitled to have everything given to you in a short time frame? You fit perfectly into that category of gamers who demand everything fast and progression to be almost instant, hence "instant gratification generation".

[sluddyazin]

I've played with some really bad players since MC. Even in ICC and Naxx. How long did it take some people doing the Heigan dance until they got it down? I wouldn't have a problem with LFR if you couldn't ignore mechanics. It just doesn't make sense. If you look at something like Spellblade you can even ignore Mark of Frost and just burn through it. Arcane orbs? The healers can pretty much heal through them. How about Star Augur? How many people don't even turn away from Thing That Should not Be during Witness the Void?

The idea of LFR is fine. The fact you can ignore boss mechanics almost entirely is what kills it. It doesn't help prepare you for Normal. Normal helps prepare you for Heroic. Heroic helps prepare for Mythic, but LFR does nothing.

[Jaylock]

That's such an ignorant statement and also funny that you target it at me in an attempt to insult my person. If you look at it from a purely logical standpoint, and through the point I had stated, with those said point being that there was no real competition to Vanilla WoW. There were other MMO's out, but all of them were fairly old at that point and didn't have the Warcraft/Blizzard fanbase. A new MMO was a huge deal back then. Now there's new MMO's that come out and die on a regular basis that no one has heard of because they're so uncommon at this point.

There's also the fact that the video game audience as a whole has changed. People aren't as willing to invest the huge amount of time that they were into games. People's lives are busier than they've ever been in the history of mankind due to the huge technological jumps. When WoW came out, flip phones were new.

The simple fact is that the majority of people who play video games wouldn't play something that required huge amounts of time and attention to the extent that Vanilla WoW did, especially one that's a subscription based game.

Show me a more hardcore, grind style subscription based MMO that's worked out well for them recently. That has anywhere near the numbers that WoW has. Hell, show me one that isn't subscription based.

What other game has WoW's brand name and company branding?

Anything with a Blizzard stamp on it, people are willing to invest time because they know its a good product.

And when I say time investment, i just mean the pace at which one would progress their character.

Again, wouldn't it feel much more rewarding to work in game doing various activities and then to finally get your first epic item 4 months after doing those activities?

It was certainly a rewarding experience when that first happened to me in Vanilla WoW. And you know what, part of that experience is now gone because of how ramped up and quickly people get thrown epics and other rewards in the game currently.

If I get an epic or reward for 1 hour of play time in game, I soon start to expect every hour i get something whether its gear, mounts, toys whatever. Now all of a sudden getting an epic item is not fun anymore.

Why do you need to have a full set of epic current raid ready gear the first week of getting into an expansion?

[Sansnom]

Non-raiding players weren't raiding to begin with. They were content and happy with the features they did enjoy.

Can you believe it? I played WoW vanilla for almost 10 months before I found out about raiding. 10 Months.

I believe Blizzard had said even when TBC was release, there were still significant numbers of players not yet at level 60. So, yes, in that aspect, they still played because they had content and were still levelling.

I enjoyed the aspects of learning about the game world, questing, doing my epic paladin mount quest, trying to do a timed stratholme run to get my upgraded tier 0.5 set, exploring, etc.

The point is, the majority of players don't care about raiding. Putting LFR there was just a way to allow these players to see and experience end game, not putting it in, players would have continued to do what they always have done... just enjoy the game for what it is.

Do know what you are saying? The point is beside raiding, Blizzard has not provided any meaningful content for the non-raiders.

Lets look at a scenario.

What if Blizzard designed the game to be as time intensive as it was in Vanilla. You had to level up your weapon skill, questing was actually challenging and took time, dungeons took longer than 20 minutes, and you had to devote at least an hour to a proper dungeon run, gear wasn't just thrown at players, and you actually had to earn it...

What if we went back to that? Players would have a ton more stuff to do because it took more effort and brain power to accomplish the tasks you would want to complete. The point is, speeding up the game to the instant gratification game that it has turned into has hurt the game.

wouldn't it feel much more rewarding and epic if it took you 4 months into an expansion to get your first epic piece of gear, and you had to do several quests and other obstacles to get it?

Sure. Lets do that. As you said, players would have tons of stuff to do. Raiding is not longer the primary end game because end game is not 3 weeks into the XP but maybe 6 months or more for the hard core players. First raid does not open until 12 months later. And the next one, if there is one, is 6 months after the first.

But all these suggestion, some from you means raiding is not the focus of the XP anymore, like it is today.

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The idea of LFR is fine. The fact you can ignore boss mechanics almost entirely is what kills it. It doesn't help prepare you for Normal. Normal helps prepare you for Heroic. Heroic helps prepare for Mythic, but LFR does nothing.

This is primary the community at fault. Not everyone, particularly those that do not treat the game as a serious hobby, knows about all these mechanics. Not everyone knows about boss video guild. The concept of reading and researching about a video is an alien concept. And it is. It is pretty much having a cheat book for the game.

So for them, they know very little about the boss mechanics. Compounding this lack of knowledge from some is the expectation from the more serious crowd already armed with such knowledge. For them, they see it as a lack of dedication to the game. Which is understandable.

My general feeling is that PUGs are not the place to learn to raid or the boss mechanics. Guilds are the place to do so but not every guild could raid for their own specific reason. So for some players, the PUGs is a hostile scene of abuse and ridicules being directed from random strangers to random strangers.

I do not have a solution. Blizzard solution was to nerf LFR to the ground where all mechanics can pretty much be ignored and that a few competent players can carry the entire group.

[Wingspan]

If everyone is subjected to the same raid difficulties (aka with Normal and above being the only difficulties), how is that "deciding who can play what?" You can play and do the raids, you just have to be willing to join groups instead of being automatically put into a group with random strangers.

Anything that does not have queue matchmaking literally has a human who "decides" who gets to play in it. Even if I make the group, it just makes me the one that decides who can play.

2) Going AFK in LFR is a common side effect of there even being LFR in the first place. If Blizzard is intentionally going to design bosses to be beat by only 10 people actually trying, what incentive do the other 15 have to perform if thats the case?

By going AFK in LFR, it only forces Blizz to make it even easier to account for those who are AFK.

So if a person hated LFR and had even half a brain, they should not want to go there and basically CAUSE the thing they hate (because it is easy), to get even easier. That should be the "incentive". But most of them are too stupid to realize that they are feeding the thing they hate so it can keep growing.

It is a beautiful bit of irony really. LFR was created (to some degree) due to player gating and made much easier over the years due to people going AFK because they hated it. LFR is the lovechild of those who wanted raiding to be exclusive.

[wrynil]

I don't like LFR, and i have wanted it gone in other expansions, but in Legion there are so many ways to get loot that I don't mind it one bit being there. Also the way they gated it was great for me personally, not having to go there for set items, giving me enough time to get the items in normal/Heroic.

[beanman12345]

I've read countless of these threads, still have yet to see 1 intelligent reason to get rid of LFR.

[Wingspan]

Lets look at a scenario.

What if Blizzard designed the game to be as time intensive as it was in Vanilla. You had to level up your weapon skill, questing was actually challenging and took time, dungeons took longer than 20 minutes, and you had to devote at least an hour to a proper dungeon run, gear wasn't just thrown at players, and you actually had to earn it...

What if we went back to that? Players would have a ton more stuff to do because it took more effort and brain power to accomplish the tasks you would want to complete. The point is, speeding up the game to the instant gratification game that it has turned into has hurt the game.

wouldn't it feel much more rewarding and epic if it took you 4 months into an expansion to get your first epic piece of gear, and you had to do several quests and other obstacles to get it?

A few of things...

1) Times change. Going back to the labor camps of Vanilla would not work well in the modern gaming landscape. There is far more solid competition out there now then there was back then, so it is way easier to play several games with small grinds rather than one game with huge grinds. It is just unlikely to work anymore.


2) Expansions happen. Part of the reason that WoW content grinds kept getting smaller and smaller (for a long time) was because they started decreasing the time of doing almost anything not related to the new expansion. Why? Because you don't sell a lot of expansions if too many people are still caught up in all of the old grinds.

The difference in vanilla leveling versus leveling through vanilla now is a perfect example. Why would you have bought Burning Crusade when you still haven't leveled out of vanilla? Blizzard realized this then and that is when they started the nerfs that would become the status quo. It was slippery slope, but it sold a lot of expansions, so who is to say if it was a bad thing?


3) The perception of success. There is no actual evidence (that players have) that the vanilla model was more successful than current models at player retention. Sure, WoW had 8 to 12 million accounts back then, but how many were leaving as fast as they showed up? They could quite possibly have been losing 6 million players a month back then... but if they were gaining 6.1 million new players in the same month, it is a net gain that makes your game look amazingly successful.

So it is entirely possible that (for all of its nerfs and simplicity) that the modern game has far better retention despite the lower population. We will simply never know.

[Blakmane]

Not removed but I'd like to see the system reworked in a way that it encouraged team work and organization instead of guaranteeing success in such a simple way.

In a different order of ideas...

As much of an amazing tool the queuing LFR / LFD system is, it also killed part of the MMO aspect of the game, before it, players had to actually travel to the content, thus, populating the areas of the game a little more instead of lobbying their way and progress, even when you could be summoned or take a F.path the travel itself and arriving to the zone could give a whole different feeling, the world felt huge and having to travel to reach a goal had an impact, seeing other players doing the same, brawling in the entrance with the other faction and things like that.

I think that insta queuing shouldn't have so many benefits, XP boosts and such. It should give the bare minimum of gear and a rate of 1x of the xp. Making a party, traveling to the area and picking quests is what should give the progress edge, xp boost and better gear.

[BananaHandsB]

Do I care that LFR is in the game...no. But I do feel sorry for those whose only raiding experiences come from that crapshoot. Raids are an amazing part of WoW, but LFR really brings out the worst in them.