What if?! [Speculation about Tyralion's message] and about AU WoD time

[masterjc]

1. Time paradox:
we saw WoD, where we traveled in the past of alternate realm and different planet
and we know there is only one Legion which stretches to all finite or infinite number of realms.
also there is one strange thing
Azerothians killed Archimonde during WC3, and during WoD it was SECOND time that we, azerothians finished him off. for our perspective, almsot 10 years have passed since his death, while from AU perspective, Archimonde has not come to Azeroth yet.
see? how it happens that in alternate realm's pass, where our being is "logical" and that past is our present and future, for Archimonde it is still Future?
if there are alternate universes, time must flow same way for all of them. and this is very stupid. if Legion also can time travel, they can invade us at same point and place lots of time, until we exhaust.


2. Tyralion's Message
I was watching again this message video.
Tyralion mentions a thousand years war.
we know Legion started its war eons ago. at least 25 000 years have passed since it's start
but in Paladin Order Hall, tyralion also mentions that he has been fighting Legion for so many years, while we know that only several decades have passed since 2nd war

many have speculated, that Tyralion, Alleria and whole army oflight in is in Twisting nether or somewhere, where time flow differently



WHAT IF this message is from Future?
what if Naaru or any leader of army of light has taken Alliance Expedition leaders from our time, to their, distant future, where ultimate battle happens?
what if they start recruit people from past?

[Qualia]

1. Time paradox:
we saw WoD, where we traveled in the past of alternate realm and different planet
and we know there is only one Legion which stretches to all finite or infinite number of realms.
also there is one strange thing
Azerothians killed Archimonde during WC3, and during WoD it was SECOND time that we, azerothians finished him off. for our perspective, almsot 10 years have passed since his death, while from AU perspective, Archimonde has not come to Azeroth yet.
see? how it happens that in alternate realm's pass, where our being is "logical" and that past is our present and future, for Archimonde it is still Future?
if there are alternate universes, time must flow same way for all of them. and this is very stupid. if Legion also can time travel, they can invade us at same point and place lots of time, until we exhaust.

There is no time-paradox here. While time flows the same way for all alternate universes (or at least, it should, as we haven't heard or seen anything implying otherwise), we didn't just travel from one universe to another in WoD. We travelled across both time and space, going off to AU *in the past*. Kairoz choose that specific timeway as it'd have suited his purpose ("My plans require a few… favorable conditions, and we'll find them here. This is the perfect timeway for us. Not a perfect mirror image, but perfect nonetheless."). With that said, obviously it isn't strange that Archimonde hasn't come to AU Azeroth yet. However, mind you, he is the same one that came to MU Azeroth (according to dev's note - "Archimonde has learned a number of nasty new tricks since then"). He, like us, also travelled to AU and back in time - although whether they (the Legion) were able to do that by themselves or they had to use the connection that Kairoz / the shard created, we aren't sure (or at least, I'm not too sure, a bit lazy to check back).

WHAT IF this message is from Future?
what if Naaru or any leader of army of light has taken Alliance Expedition leaders from our time, to their, distant future, where ultimate battle happens?
what if they start recruit people from past?

Then why haven't they done so already, or at least given us a better explanation? We already met members of the Army of the Light, sent by Turalyon to help us. So far, I don't think Lothraxion and his warriors have done or said anything to imply that they came from the future, haven't they?

I wouldn't rule out the possibility that the message came from the future entirely, but personally, I'd say it's unlikely to be the case. There are just too few (or none at all) event(s) hinting at that.

[Darkarath]

It's obvious that something happens with the flow of time in the Twisting Nether, which is it why I think that next expansion could feature a big timeskip in Azeroth.

About WoD and the same Legion accross all universes, it's not even worth to consider. Not even Blizzard knows how to fix this, when they're asked about it they avoid the answer or just said that they don't know how to explain it yet.

They said that WoD won't affect our timeline, but if what they said about the Legion is true (probably going to be retconned at some point), we would be absolutely fucked, and the Legion would have been victorious a long time ago.

[Qualia]

They said that WoD won't affect our timeline, but if what they said about the Legion is true (probably going to be retconned at some point), we would be absolutely fucked, and the Legion would have been victorious a long time ago.

How'd that be the case?

[George Costanza]

If only WoD was our universe but in an alternate pocket miniverse like a bubble.

[Darkarath]

How'd that be the case?

The Legion will be able to travel through realities and time, meaning that they could go to the exact moment that they wanted to do the damage that they wanted when it suited them best. Impossible to fight against such an enemy.

[steelballfc]

Then why haven't they done so already, or at least given us a better explanation? We already met members of the Army of the Light, sent by Turalyon to help us. So far, I don't think Lothraxion and his warriors have done or said anything to imply that they came from the future, haven't they?

Don't create even more time paradox with telling the " past " about the future, if someone did travel back in time he has done enough damage to his future just by traveling back to past, he doesn't need to deal more damage by telling the future.

[masterjc]

Agreed

I dont mind alternate universes and timelines
They add some flavoir, like what if somethong went different. We have met such speculations in books before.
See Shattering and war crimes
But time travelling sucks a lot
While infinite drwgonflight made some sense and it had good explanation,as we stopped them and bronzes made sure nobody remembered us back there, even human patrols in old hillsbrad all were secretly infinite dragonflight. Also even war of the ancients made a bit sense for time travel bit it sucked a lot. Because suddenly hakkar died in past while he was gping in present (by than blizz had no idea how to fuk up wow universe more, by inventing WoD "lore")

But when krasus at first tis willing even to die to avoid changes in timeline, its ok but when krasus broxigar and khadgar start changing timeline AND nozdormu allows it to happen. It sucks sooo much.we could assume this was pivotal moment for him going nuts and changing into murozond. To fix back hat those trio and himself did. It would be pretty cool. No old gods no legion no scourge not even madness. Just bronze aspect trying fix what he failed and we trying stopping him. Why? Yeas he is right ans we are wrong. But we want to live
We would be unnecessarily bad stuff needed to be removed for greater good. We would be ones eho are enemy fighting agains well being of whole planet. And universe and we woild wim it could gove us different story and apparoach

In Shattering it also made some sense. To see what would happen world if some circumstences would vhange

In WOD it atarted to fuk up for real. Alternate universe travelling. Time travelling.
And one legion infinite wolrds paradox
It is changed so so mucj that I have no idea how blizz or Anyone can ever fix that

Best explanation?.Hi all good that you woke up peon.
Now go chop that lumber. You have been asleep since 2004 november when wow first started. And all tgat you saw was a bad dream or emerald nightmare...

[Eazy]

No more of the alternate universes/timewalking bullshit already, please.

[Qualia]

The Legion will be able to travel through realities and time, meaning that they could go to the exact moment that they wanted to do the damage that they wanted when it suited them best. Impossible to fight against such an enemy.

We don't know if the Legion can freely travel through time, though, and I believe Blizzard has never stated that as well. They did travel through time in WoD, but as said, we aren't sure if they could do that by themselves, or they made use of the connection Kairoz and the Shard of the Hourglass created.

[Darkarath]

Thing is that it was so easy to them to just say: ''The Legion from WoD lives just in that universe''. And that would make perfect sense, they could do whatever they wanted in that universe. But they said: ''It's the same Legion'', and thats a disaster, it makes 0 sense.

They said that we will see some kind of explanation to this subject in Legion, and we are still waiting. We might get something in Argus, but I doubt it, they're just letting the issue die as if they never talk about it.

- - - Updated - - -

We don't know if the Legion can freely travel through time, though, and I believe Blizzard has never stated that as well. They did travel through time in WoD, but as said, we aren't sure if they could do that by themselves, or they made use of the connection Kairoz and the Shard of the Hourglass created.

Well, the Gul'dan of WoD universe was contacted by Kil'Jaeden way before Garrosh arrival, ergo they can see and manipulate other universes and times, and eventually go to them.

[Qualia]

Well, the Gul'dan of WoD universe was contacted by Kil'Jaeden way before Garrosh arrival, ergo they can see and manipulate other universes and times, and eventually go to them.

It's true that they can see and contact other universes other than MU and they are already assaulting / destroying worlds in other universes at the present, that much is clear in "Illidan" ("This time he saw not just one universe but a near infinity of them, a complex fractal structure, where new worlds were born each minute from the decisions made a heartbeat before. <...> In every one of them, the Legion marched triumphant, leaving futures stillborn and presents empty of all life. He saw countless Azeroths, countless Vandels, and countless Khariels, and to every one of them came death. He saw his child die in an infinity of different ways, and in every one of those possible worlds, he was powerless to prevent it") and AU Gul'dan's past. However, whether they can physically travel to those AU in the past freely by themselves is in question. After all, there are the Bronze Dragonflight, and unlike Draenor, the Legion can't just travel to Azeroth (MU or AU) without any portal due to the distance anyway. Thus, with current lore, I don't see how it'd be strange that we haven't lost yet.

[Darkarath]

It's true that they can see and contact other universes other than MU and they are already assaulting / destroying worlds in other universes at the present, that much is clear in "Illidan" ("In every one of them, the Legion marched triumphant, leaving futures stillborn and presents empty of all life. He saw countless Azeroths, countless Vandels, and countless Khariels, and to every one of them came death. He saw his child die in an infinity of different ways, and in every one of those possible worlds, he was powerless to prevent it") and AU Gul'dan's past. However, whether they can physically travel to those AU in the past freely by themselves is in question. After all, there are the Bronze Dragonflight, and unlike Draenor, the Legion can't just travel to Azeroth (MU or AU) without any portal due to the distance anyway. Thus, with current lore, I don't see how it'd be strange that we haven't lost yet.

I agree with you that they might not be able to teleport by themselves to any universe at any time, but this is the Legion we are talking about. They can always go to the universe and time that they like, influence the people that they need and eventually find a way to go to the moment that they need. If they fail in their attempt, thay can always go back and try a new approach, how they cannot succeed in their fight with such tools?

[Qualia]

I agree with you that they might not be able to teleport by themselves to any universe at any time, but this is the Legion we are talking about. They can always go to the universe and time that they like, influence the people that they need and eventually find a way to go to the moment that they need. If they fail in their attempt, thay can always go back and try a new approach, how they cannot succeed in their fight with such tools?

I'd say one of the biggest reason is that they aren't literally infinite and they don't just have infinite attempts. Travelling, conquering and recovering take time - it's not like the demons respawn or win instantly. A dead Archimonde after Hyjal means no Archimonde to take part in conquest for xx year, for example. Additionally, they are always handicapped against us in the sense that they can't just travel to Azeroth due to the distance, and have to get summoned instead. From the moment of the Ordering of Azeroth up until now, we are actually always protected (especially after WoTA) - there were the Keepers & Titanforged army, then came the Aspects & Dragonflight after, then Order of Tirifals & Guardians and now us. It just isn't that easy to reach Azeroth with a force powerful enough.

[Darkarath]

I'd say one of the biggest reason is that they aren't literally infinite and they don't just have infinite attempts. Travelling, conquering and recovering take time - it's not like the demons respawn or win instantly. A dead Archimonde after Hyjal means no Archimonde to take part in conquest for xx year, for example. Additionally, they are always handicapped against us in the sense that they can't just travel to Azeroth due to the distance, and have to get summoned instead. From the moment of the Ordering of Azeroth up until now, we are actually always protected (especially after WoTA) - there were the Keepers & Titanforged army, then came the Aspects & Dragonflight after, then Order of Tirifals & Guardians and now us. It just isn't that easy to reach Azeroth with a force powerful enough.

Don't know, Blizzard always talk about endless planets, endless universes, endless possibilities, and the Legion has been destroying planets for eons, it's a hell of a job, it takes time, but Sargeras has focused on Azeroth for a while now. If they know that Illidan and Malfurion is going to be a problem, for example, why not contact Azshara in the past and make her deal with them?

I think that Blizzard position with the Legion open endless possibilities, not the best way to go IMO.

[masterjc]

Don't know, Blizzard always talk about endless planets, endless universes, endless possibilities, and the Legion has been destroying planets for eons, it's a hell of a job, it takes time, but Sargeras has focused on Azeroth for a while now. If they know that Illidan and Malfurion is going to be a problem, for example, why not contact Azshara in the past and make her deal with them?

I think that Blizzard position with the Legion open endless possibilities, not the best way to go IMO.

I start feeling pity for Legion

maybe join them?
they can't destroy all worlds anyway for millenias

[zlygork]

Don't know, Blizzard always talk about endless planets, endless universes, endless possibilities, and the Legion has been destroying planets for eons, it's a hell of a job, it takes time, but Sargeras has focused on Azeroth for a while now. If they know that Illidan and Malfurion is going to be a problem, for example, why not contact Azshara in the past and make her deal with them?

I think that Blizzard position with the Legion open endless possibilities, not the best way to go IMO.

I don't think the legion is capable of time travel - AU Draenor is set in the present, it is just a mirror of what our outlands looked like 35ish years ago, but we didn't "time travel" per se to reach it, if that makes any sense.
I would argue that MU azeroth is the only one with a world soul, and therefore the legion might have travelled to "past" AU azeroths and taken over them without a care in the world, it was just another meaningless victory in their fight against the void. And finally, assuming that there is indeed no world-soul in AU azeroths, we can expect them to be VERY different from the azeroth we know - No well of eternity, no trolls, no elves, possibly no titan influence... Nothing of relevance.

[Qualia]

I don't think the legion is capable of time travel - AU Draenor is set in the present, it is just a mirror of what our outlands looked like 35ish years ago, but we didn't "time travel" per se to reach it, if that makes any sense.
I would argue that MU azeroth is the only one with a world soul, and therefore the legion might have travelled to "past" AU azeroths and taken over them without a care in the world, it was just another meaningless victory in their fight against the void. And finally, assuming that there is indeed no world-soul in AU azeroths, we can expect them to be VERY different from the azeroth we know - No well of eternity, no trolls, no elves, possibly no titan influence... Nothing of relevance.

AU Draenor is in our / the Legion's present, but it was the past in that alternate universe. When we traveled over, we actually crossed both space (from our MU to the AU) and time (from present to past) and so was the Legion. The later part is "time travel", unless our definitions of time travelling differ somehow. We just don't know if the Legion can do it freely in other alternate universe, or this is just a chance unintentionally created by Kairoz that they grabbed. As of time travelling in our universe, they can probably do that, seeing that even mortal mages can. I'd expect the Bronze Dragonflight to prevent any unnatural change to history if the Legion messed with our past, though, just like they (well, Nozdormu) did when the Old Gods tried.

As of your theory that MU is the only one with a world soul, and that if it's the case, AU Azeroths would be very different from ours - there is an issue with it as we've seen alternate version of some important characters. Kairoz summoned an alternate self of Kalec that knew Aveena, so in that AU there was a Sunwell (and thus, likely had the WoE) and influence of the Titan (the Aspects / dragons wouldn't have became dragons otherwise). Vandel saw, in his visions of the multiverse, that there were "countless Azeroths, countless Vandels, and countless Khariels, and to every one of them came death" so elves (and thus, WoE) should have been around in those AUs as well. While it might not be true that every Azeroths have a world soul, there are likely more than one of them with it.

[Kathranis]

The difference isn't in how time works between demons and mortals, but rather how they inhabit and perceive it, as a result of demons having souls that are bound to the Twisting Nether, which transcends and permeates all realities.

Because demons share a single soul across all realities, they inhabit all realities simultaneously, and have a degree of shared awareness with their alternate selves.

That does not mean they are omnipotent, or that they can freely travel from one reality to another, or from the present to the past or future. In fact, it seems that they may even have to rely on mortals like Gul'dan to do their bidding when it comes to such things.


As far as I'm aware, the primary difference between our reality and other possible realities is that it's one of the few, if not the only one, where probability works out in such a way that the Legion can actually be defeated. In all other realities, the resistance eventually fails and the Legion destroys Azeroth and, in time, the entire universe.

In short, the Legion is slowly eliminating all possibilities of victory (other timelines) until only the possibility of defeat (our timeline) remains. Pehaps there will be a revelation that Sargeras's goal was ultimately self-defeating, perhaps even intentionally; either he would eliminate all realities or he would find a reality that had the might to defeat him, and thereby combat the Void.


As for the perception of the Warlords of Draenor reality being in the past, well, it's our present, and presumably the Legion's too. I guess. Probably. Don't think about it.

[zlygork]

AU Draenor is in our / the Legion's present, but it was the past in that alternate universe. When we traveled over, we actually crossed both space (from our MU to the AU) and time (from present to past) and so was the Legion. The later part is "time travel", unless our definitions of time travelling differ somehow. We just don't know if the Legion can do it freely in other alternate universe, or this is just a chance unintentionally created by Kairoz that they grabbed. As of time travelling in our universe, they can probably do that, seeing that even mortal mages can. I'd expect the Bronze Dragonflight to prevent any unnatural change to history if the Legion messed with our past, though, just like they (well, Nozdormu) did when the Old Gods tried.

As of your theory that MU is the only one with a world soul, and that if it's the case, AU Azeroths would be very different from ours - there is an issue with it as we've seen alternate version of some important characters. Kairoz summoned an alternate self of Kalec that knew Aveena, so in that AU there was a Sunwell (and thus, likely had the WoE) and influence of the Titan (the Aspects / dragons wouldn't have became dragons otherwise). Vandel saw, in his visions of the multiverse, that there were "countless Azeroths, countless Vandels, and countless Khariels, and to every one of them came death" so elves (and thus, WoE) should have been around in those AUs as well. While it might not be true that every Azeroths have a world soul, there are likely more than one of them with it.

Interesting point about the AU azeroths in the illidan novel. If there are other azeroths with night elves (and dragons, etc.) then it should have been affected by a titan's life force (presumably Azeroth's own). Doesn't that suggest that at the very least, alternate world souls exist? Shouldn't Sargeras already have recruited an infinity of azeroths if that were the case? (as per vandel's vision, many azeroths fell/will fall to the legion)