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  1. #41
    This thread makes my head scratch. The game is entering it's 13th year. The total franchise is 22 years old. What do you expect the game to do exactly to not continue? Even with 5million subscribers that's 600million payout from subscriptions, that excludes other in-goings and out-goings. I mean it must be really appalling to have to have a subscriber base that has the same population as Norway. They must be clearly doing stuff wrong. Yes they had subscribers going up to the population that exceeded Belgium back in Wrath of the Lich King, but that was back when there was a period of recession and aftermath too, it was easier to play games indoor at little expense than nowadays where there isn't so much recession and a bit of freedom to do so.

    I mean really, gamers from 12-13 years ago have most likely walked further into their life choices. I personally have children myself and play more casually than what I use to, I welcome the change and even then they had this change for a lot time. When they had separate difficulties based on group size and it eventually evolved into what it is today. What's the point of spending money on content that like 1% sees? There isn't, that's bad for business and bussiness model for any company. I like the game still there are things that don't correlate in my mind but hey, I don't make it, I play it and sub it. The game is catering for every player as much as most other games do and not just Blizzard itself.
    It's a multiplayer online, it's a pretty clue that it isn't just for one target audience. And if you don't like it, actions speak louder than words, unsubscribe and stop complaining or finding any platform to whine about your distaste.

    To say scaling is a cheap way of doing things. The cheapest way would be not release content for months if not years, not provide hotfixes and patches in between major content pushes and the like. To recoup as much profit without the cost of the working team behind World of Warcraft until players realise and unsubscribe till they have zero base left. Ignorance is really bliss on this. And so what if they reuse older content? It was made with the intention for players to use... What's the point of keeping it live when a small fraction see it for 5 minutes then left? It's like leaving a shirt in your closet and never using it and allowing to take up space, you might as well use it if it's still decent.
    Last edited by Evangeliste; 2017-03-08 at 12:30 PM.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by MiiiMiii View Post
    Scaling is LAZY.
    You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

    Scaling in and of itself is not lazy. Lazy is contingent on whether Blizzard use the time saved implementing scaling to sit on their asses, or to do something productive. It can only be considered to be lazy if it is done instead of other content as opposed to in addition to, as is actually the case.

    Quote Originally Posted by MiiiMiii View Post
    It is trying to feed us the same content multiple times, with slight changes to HP and DMG, then call it new content.
    From a different perspective that could be called smart/efficient use of resources.

    You know what we'd have if we didn't have Timewalking? Maybe 1 extra new dungeon.
    You know what we'd have if 12 boss raids didn't have 4 different difficulty settings? 3 bosses for each difficulty setting.

    You need to stop looking at scaled content and imagine what you'd like it to be assuming Blizzard had infinite resources, manpower and time to throw at the problem and learn to figure out what you could have expected had they chosen to spend the resources, manpower and time they did on a different feature.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Amerissis View Post
    Uhm, yes, and whether it does to Blizzard is determined by what the majority of their customers want. So what he and I think, matters.
    Wrong on both accounts. It doesn't matter what the customers want, it matters how it affects the game. What you want isn't necessarily what you need or should be given. So what you think about it may be interesting, but not really relevant.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

    Scaling in and of itself is not lazy. Lazy is contingent on whether Blizzard use the time saved implementing scaling to sit on their asses, or to do something productive. It can only be considered to be lazy if it is done instead of other content as opposed to in addition to, as is actually the case.
    Not to mention that implementing it on a platform that wasn't originally meant to support it was almost definitely a crapton of work.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Motorman View Post
    In vanilla the most a casual would see of the said raids was first boss MC and the most epics a casual would see would be weapon from AV and a neck piece from DMF coupled with a trinket if he managed to farm all that gold.

    In modern wow where everyone can play everything scaling makes the sky the limit. You can choose to do one dungeon per week and still be relevant to someone who plays 2-3 raids per week.
    Congratulations, you summarized exactly why modern WoW sucks.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Motorman View Post
    ..... In modern wow where everyone can play everything scaling makes the sky the limit. You can choose to do one dungeon per week and still be relevant to someone who plays 2-3 raids per week.
    I think that is incorrect. What do you define as relevant? Relevant, as in they'd be willing to have you join their raid team?

    You can not do just one dungeon per week and still be relevant in terms of gear if that is what you meant.

    You would have to do more than one mythic +. Unless that other person gets no upgrades that week.

    If you do normal raids and your gear reflects that, then you won't be relevant to a mythic raiding guild. Unless you are really good or they desperately need your class and/or spec.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Sencha View Post
    Congratulations, you summarized exactly why modern WoW sucks.
    +1.

    Exactly my thoughts.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by MiiiMiii View Post
    In every single expansion, we have slowely moved from World of Warcraft to World of Scalecraft. A game where all content is scaled.

    In TBC we got "normal and heroic dungeons". In WotLK we got normal and heroic raids (starting from Ulduar). Cata, 10 man and 25 man choice. Cata, normal vs heroic mode. Cata, LFR. "Flex raiding". "Timewalking dungeons". Now we have even scaleable leveling zones, PvP gear scaling and "unlimited scaling" in dungeons. Gear is also being scaled starting with Heirloom gear and now this whole concept of titanforged and warforged gear. Hell, even spells used to not be scaled before, you had ranks. You are a miner on lvl 1? Don't worry, you can mine the Legion ores, we just scale down how much you get from mining it. Want to kill a mob? We scale the HP and dmg of the mob based on how many attacks it.

    Even I am starting to have issues thinking of more things that can be scaled, but I am sure Blizz will come up with something. How about Raiding+? Or maybe scale every single leveling zone all the way back to level 1? Let's not give Blizzard any ideas...

    Scaling is LAZY. It is trying to feed us the same content multiple times, with slight changes to HP and DMG, then call it new content. Throw the concept of RPG out the door, we need more scaling! Scaling is, in my opinion the worst mistake this game has done ever. It sucks the life out of this game. It just gets worse and worse, without any indication that it will stop.

    I hate every single thing scaling has brought to this game.
    WotLK had both 10/25m options.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Motorman View Post
    Well don't play then what forces you to do something that sucks? Addiction? Force of habit? And if you are no longer playing what forces you to keep talking about it? Addiction? Force of habit?

    P.S. Congratulations for showing everyone you weren't around during classic.
    How did you come to this conclusion?

  9. #49
    Know what is the worst scaling? Those damn levels! Your character constantly scales up, the relevant gear gets better, you get more base stats, more base health, more base secondary resources. It's terrible!

    In a game where the goal is to become more and more powerful so you can do more and more challenging content, it would be silly to have that content completely static.

    I may not agree with all the "scaling", but things like dungeon difficulties, raid difficulties, and choosing leveling zones take character progression droughts and essentially remove them. There is always something near or at level/ilevel you can do, and I have a hard time seeing that as bad.

  10. #50
    What the game really needs is even more scaling.

  11. #51
    I don't think scaling is inherently problematic, but I do think that the way it has been implemented in Legion is terrible, and I'm very glad to be playing a game that uses a more reasonable scaling system.

    More specifically, I believe the player should scale to the content, not the other way around. Right now, it doesn't matter if I'm level 100, 104, 109.... there is effectively no difference. The only thing it affects is what order hall research you can do. Other than that, there's no abilities, there are no talents, there are no difference in zone... they might as well have just eliminated leveling entirely and had a single xp bar labled "experience until you can start end-game".

    In an RPG, when you gain a level you're supposed to feel like you gain something from it; some form of character growth or expansion. Vanilla did that very well, as did TBC and WotLK. Cataclysm started to dial it back, but you still felt like you made steady progress. Mists dialed it back further, but gave out enough new stuff for the new five levels to make it mostly work. Warlords dialed it back still further, going from new abilities to perks which ranged from "mandatory for your class to function" to "you're lucky if you notice it" but with ability pruning elsewhere. Now Legion has dialed it back still further, which more ability pruning and absolutely no new abilities for the new levels (your artifact abilities are available to you, but a function of the weapon, and the artifact's growth is completely untethered from your own leveling, so nothing you get from the artifact represents growing stronger as you level).

    In Legion, a level 101 can group up seamlessly with a level 108 character in a dungeon and both can equally contribute. Level is meaningless, you're either 110 or you're not. Perhaps a nice way to emphaisze to the players that end-game is all that matters, but not at all what levels are supposed to be.

  12. #52
    I dislike scaling myself. It's the lazy way to add content.

    Rather than add new dungeons to WoD (such as ones to mimic the old Hellfire Citadel dungeons in TBC), Blizzard enabled timewalking for dungeons many of us did to death when they were current.

    If Blizzard did timewalking raids, it'd be at the expense of a new raid tier.

    If Blizzard did timewalking zones, it'd be at the expense of new zones.

    I found timewalkers boring the first time I did them. It's nothing but an irritation to do a dungeon now and seeing people who started after those dungeons were current and fail at basic things. I don't know how many times I've done Arcatraz only to have groups fail in the first room! Rather than kill both of the blood elf packs, they run through the mobs. You know if you kill both, the white mobs stop spawning? I say that and the tank just ignores me. Then we wipe later and guess what we have to do again? I'm tired of it at this point and I just pull the other pack myself. Or try to explain Pit of Saron to idiots.

    I also despise scaling in Broken Isles. Archaeology is nothing but a headache to level as is gathering. I used to enjoy mining. Now I only hit the nodes that are right in my path and don't have mobs nearby. I'm not spending 30 seconds killing a mob just to get something that gives me 2 ore. I like going back to old content and being able to evade mobs lower than I am. Now I can't do that.

    On top of that, you think scaling gives you a choice in where to level? No it doesn't. You have to do every zone anyway just to unlock world quests. What's the point in scaling when all you do is change up the order? Then every profession quest takes you to Azsuna.

    Scaling dungeons are also a nightmare. Leveling a healer and getting level 110 players in your group is hellish to heal. Healing scaling is crap.

    Scaling, much like CRZ, sucks. I almost went back to SWTOR until I heard it implemented scaling. Now I have no interest in going back ever. Now Blizzard's doing it. I dread the day they add it to everything. The day I have to start getting a group again to kill Rivendare for the mount is the day I quit. That would also likely be the day Blizzard just stops trying to add new content.

  13. #53
    Why have you played for so long if you hate all the core features of pve?
    "Privilege is invisible to those who have it."

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by MiiiMiii View Post
    In every single expansion, we have slowely moved from World of Warcraft to World of Scalecraft. A game where all content is scaled.

    In TBC we got "normal and heroic dungeons". In WotLK we got normal and heroic raids (starting from Ulduar). Cata, 10 man and 25 man choice. Cata, normal vs heroic mode. Cata, LFR. "Flex raiding". "Timewalking dungeons". Now we have even scaleable leveling zones, PvP gear scaling and "unlimited scaling" in dungeons. Gear is also being scaled starting with Heirloom gear and now this whole concept of titanforged and warforged gear. Hell, even spells used to not be scaled before, you had ranks. You are a miner on lvl 1? Don't worry, you can mine the Legion ores, we just scale down how much you get from mining it. Want to kill a mob? We scale the HP and dmg of the mob based on how many attacks it.

    Even I am starting to have issues thinking of more things that can be scaled, but I am sure Blizz will come up with something. How about Raiding+? Or maybe scale every single leveling zone all the way back to level 1? Let's not give Blizzard any ideas...

    Scaling is LAZY. It is trying to feed us the same content multiple times, with slight changes to HP and DMG, then call it new content. Throw the concept of RPG out the door, we need more scaling! Scaling is, in my opinion the worst mistake this game has done ever. It sucks the life out of this game. It just gets worse and worse, without any indication that it will stop.

    I hate every single thing scaling has brought to this game.
    Scaling on its own is OK. The problem is that their additions to the game are like 70% new scaling modes and 30% new content. Heck, even main Legion features are mostly about scaling (artifact?? world quests??? mythic+? legendaries? I counted nearly every feature of Legion and all of them just move things around - like glyphs / pruned abilities into artifact - and add scaling).

    They are doing too little new content, too little new gameplay, and a lot more scaling - because scaling is much, much easier to do. This is the worst problem they have in Legion.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Motorman View Post
    Classic was great yes for those of us with a raiding guild and access to 90-100% of the content. For everyone else wow was at best a good levelling journey to 60 where they landed and found out they are never going to catch up with anyone or if they want to catch up they must a) have major luck with finding a good guild b) move to a really big server for more chances c) have some godly luck that allows them to get awesome pre-raid gear that sustains them.
    I will note that for those "everyone else" who didn't raid, vanilla WoW was also great. And why? Because vanilla WoW contained tons of content. There were many zones, many instances, many profession recipes, etc, etc, etc, the amount of gameplay introduced in vanilla was huge.

    You say that WoW got better with time - and it did, in many aspects. The UI got better, many subsystems got better, yes. The gameplay grew a lot as well - but mostly in TBC / WotLK / Cata / MoP (although Cata is mostly there because of the revamp of the old world - if only they added two big patches with new Cata zones / instances instead...). WoD and Legion did not add a lot of gameplay. Now, WoD crashed and Legion tries to compensate that it does not add a lot of gameplay by scaling everything out the wazoo. Well, it fails. That's going to be their lesson in Legion - scaling is *not* a substitute for adding new content. People get bored and unsub. /shrug
    Last edited by rda; 2017-03-09 at 08:56 AM.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Raego View Post
    I hope the entire game gets scaling so we can do any zone at any level and get world quests in zones outside the broken isles. Would also make updating older zones more justifiable.
    The pros of scaling outweigh the cons.
    It's easy - just remove levels completely. If everything is scaled, why have them? Just make a characters with different abilities.

    Sounds cool? Then go play Overwatch and fuck off of WoW, please. I want pulverize level 1 wild boars, not have an epic fight with them every time.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Marston View Post
    I love scaling. Being able to do stuff at any level is great. As soon as you outlevel things it becomes to easy, the rewards are no longer relevant and if you want to see the story of a whole zone you definitly will outlevel said zone, even without heirlooms.
    I don't get it, you "want to see a whole story", but don't want to see unless you're also rewarded?
    Last edited by rowaasr13; 2017-03-09 at 10:26 AM.
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  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Motorman View Post
    Ok I will reply. You claim modern wow sucks as opposed to some awesomeness that classic was. Classic was great yes for those of us with a raiding guild and access to 90-100% of the content. For everyone else wow was at best a good levelling journey to 60 where they landed and found out they are never going to catch up with anyone or if they want to catch up they must a) have major luck with finding a good guild b) move to a really big server for more chances c) have some godly luck that allows them to get awesome pre-raid gear that sustains them.

    In modern wow with all the flaws that we all agree exist, the player as an entity is more valued and rightfully so. The player pays. So the game entices the player to continue playing. If that was left to other players we all know how it would end because lets face it there is nothing like the fellow co-player to spread misery to others. Check this forum. Someone writes something you don't agree with and all you can come up with is provocations and one line sentences.

    Check the game. Someone tries to get a group and people start asking "curve" "900 gear to do 850 content" "multiple kills + curve + 900 gear to do 880 content" the amount of crap people ask if you let them is astounding.

    So there you have it. Scaling allows every player to progress with that much less harrassment from other guilds players etc. And if you don't like that well its probably because thats how you treat others and scaling reduces the amount of victims at your disposal. Because yeah I ll do a +15 mythic and I have no need to ever play with someone who will break my balls while boosting his alt.
    Dealing with pug is horrible and being in a guild opens a lot of opportunities that you can't do alone. You're right, the guild aspect was even more important in vanilla and you'd miss a lot of content if you were playing on your own.

    So my question is: why don't you join a guild? Joining a good guild is not that hard and is definitely not about luck.

  18. #58
    If you do not like the direction Blizzard is going you have 2 choices.
    1) Unsubscribe to prove a point
    2) Play the god damn game Regardless and stop complaining (I would almost bet this is the choice most of the complainers are taking)
    "How you build your character is not a feature of a MMORPG, it is the feature. Everything else is secondary even the gameplay itself is secondary to building your character, its the kind of stuff you think about when you are at work or school and couldnt wait to go home to play WoW or Diablo 2. We have all done it." ~Into, 2016

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zmago View Post
    So, you basically want a MOBA with raiding?
    I don't particulary like the idea.

    @MiiiMiii:
    So basically you want the game only tailored to what you view as the correct difficulty?
    Guess what: So does "Spongebob Casualpants", and so does "H.P. Hardcorecraft" (Names are fictual).
    This is exactly why scaling exists in the 1st place.
    Yes, a raiding-MOBA would be my dream game, hoping for that sometime in the future, by Blizzard or other companies

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by rowaasr13 View Post
    It's easy - just remove levels completely. If everything is scaled, why have them? Just make a characters with different abilities.

    Sounds cool? Then go play Overwatch and fuck off of WoW, please. I want pulverize level 1 wild boars, not have an epic fight with them every time.
    Does Overwatch have a PVE mode?

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