Why pvp feels so bad this expansion

[Deleted]

Removal of balanced signature abilities or scattering them through talents.
Removal of niche abilities that provided skilled players opportunities to shine - e.g Hunter´s Mark to follow up a trap so it doesnt get dispelled, Scare Beast, Bind Elemental, Fel Flame, Shadow Word Death dealing damage just for Poly / Repent etc.
Too much automation, e.g meta + stun are one button, auto trinket, autobubble etc. In general too much stuff baked into few abilities, result: skill of decision-making and "reading" the match not rewarded as much.

Overall casuals can reach higher ratings easier than ever in Legion because niche abilities that they couldnt use before are now gone for good.

edit: also loss of mobility for ranged across the board (except magi perhaps)

[Merkicus]

The guy says he has been playing since 2004 as if that is an argument for the idea that classes have less utility now than ever before. That is a patently false claim.

The developers appear to be trying to find the sweet-spot between quantity of abilities, class design, and overarching mechanics. At one point, classes had too little and certain classes had no chance against others; at some other point, every class had WAY too many tools and the game was bogged down by nonsense. Currently, we are somewhere in the middle and on the right track towards proper balance.

There is a reason why nearly every class and every spec within every class has a place in PvP. That used to be a laughable claim in the WoW universe. I can log onto my hunter, my monk, or my DK and spec into any of their associated specs (apart from maybe Brewmaster) and do very well, in any PvP setting. That is a fact.

Once you factor in the honor talents on top of regular talents + abilities it's still a massive bloat of things you need to press.

Trinkets, health stones, defensive cds (everyone has this now - why? why did hunter need an iceblock type move?), offensive cds, 4-5 rotation staples, gap closers and escapes and when you factor in the PVP talents it grows even more.

There's a lot of twitchy kids who were 11 y/o or whatever when WoW came out that think having 50 abilities to manage is better for the game. Maybe it's their preference, but we have plenty of evidence suggesting that it makes the game worse.

For one, PVP simply feels worse than it ever did in vanilla. And it's been getting worse with every xpac since WOTLK.

[sarkarin]

I don't even think the PvP itself is that bad if you solo queue for a Random Battleground or a Skirmish, it can be quite fun actually. There are a few OP specs but everybody has a purpose or a situation where they have advantage or use of some kind. The gearing / rated PvP side of the game however is a complete travesty of game design that alienates the vast majority players hence why the PvP scene is now all but eradicated from the game.

The overall main reason is this:

Ladder based rewards: Only a tiny part of the community can gear competitively. The OVERWHELMING MAJORITY of players have no hope in hell of ever getting above 2k rating (me included) thus they will never be able to gear through PvP which is why participation has tanked. Gear is the bread and butter of an RPG. Saying it's not important is bullshit.

If you actually do want to get serious about 2k rating though, here is just a snippet of things you will have to do or at least consider as a player:

- Likely change guild to PvP guild. Hint: There are barely any around. Most of them die within weeks of even starting up.
- Change all keybinds to arena / BG friendly ones which most likely means trashing the PvE ones.
- Research meta comp and potentially have to change class because your class and spec is not wanted in arena or BGs.
- Level new char if don't already have comp class at 110.
- Find partner which can take ages because most people will ditch you if you're not that skilled or lose even 2 games.
- Coordinate time to play with stranger or friend which can be chaotic and extremely unreliable. Time very rarely matches up if you have kids or any kind of responsibilities.
- Spend hours going up and down ladder never knowing if your going to get somewhere.
- Can't find a group anyway because most want you to link achievements of 2k+

When you come home from work / school you want to wind down not be slapped in the face with this bullshit. You are killing players the same as everyone else. You're doing your damn duty. But no, you're not worthy of a competitive reward. Those countless BGs and Arenas you spent hours of your life in don't count for shit. All those hours you spend as an active PvP community player and you get slapped in the face with: 2k Rating or get fucked.

[Merkicus]

That's why I'm saying just slap in an experimental BG where you load up into some pre-canned classes - call it Tides of Darkness and model it after WC2, alliance get some paladins, archers, footmen, etc. and just see how that works - as long as it's a form and ability change and not a vehicle, it'll work fine.

It'll also be a huge success.

[mmowin]

I don't even think the PvP itself is that bad if you solo queue for a Random Battleground or a Skirmish, it can be quite fun actually. There are a few OP specs but everybody has a purpose or a situation where they have advantage or use of some kind. The gearing / rated PvP side of the game however is a complete travesty of game design that alienates the vast majority players hence why the PvP scene is now all but eradicated from the game.

The overall main reason is this:

Ladder based rewards: Only a tiny part of the community can gear competitively. The OVERWHELMING MAJORITY of players have no hope in hell of ever getting above 2k rating (me included) thus they will never be able to gear through PvP which is why participation has tanked. Gear is the bread and butter of an RPG. Saying it's not important is bullshit.

If you actually do want to get serious about 2k rating though, here is just a snippet of things you will have to do or at least consider as a player:

- Likely change guild to PvP guild. Hint: There are barely any around. Most of them die within weeks of even starting up.
- Change all keybinds to arena / BG friendly ones which most likely means trashing the PvE ones.
- Research meta comp and potentially have to change class because your class and spec is not wanted in arena or BGs.
- Level new char if don't already have comp class at 110.
- Find partner which can take ages because most people will ditch you if you're not that skilled or lose even 2 games.
- Coordinate time to play with stranger or friend which can be chaotic and extremely unreliable. Time very rarely matches up if you have kids or any kind of responsibilities.
- Spend hours going up and down ladder never knowing if your going to get somewhere.
- Can't find a group anyway because most want you to link achievements of 2k+

When you come home from work / school you want to wind down not be slapped in the face with this bullshit. You are killing players the same as everyone else. You're doing your damn duty. But no, you're not worthy of a competitive reward. Those countless BGs and Arenas you spent hours of your life in don't count for shit. All those hours you spend as an active PvP community player and you get slapped in the face with: 2k Rating or get fucked.

THANK YOU! This is what I said in my video and yet people are thumbing it down like its going out of style. When Blizzard made gear irrelevant and REMOVED all progression from ranked PVP and REMOVED pvp vendors and introduced this absolutley attrocious RNG system into pvp, it all but nuked the competive pvp scene. Talking about ranked arenas and rated battlegrounds of course. I don't mind them doing this for random bgs as that doesnt count in my eyes. I just feel like this expansion was a giant F' you to the competitive pvp community.

[Ohmega]

Once you factor in the honor talents on top of regular talents + abilities it's still a massive bloat of things you need to press.

Trinkets, health stones, defensive cds (everyone has this now - why? why did hunter need an iceblock type move?), offensive cds, 4-5 rotation staples, gap closers and escapes and when you factor in the PVP talents it grows even more.

There's a lot of twitchy kids who were 11 y/o or whatever when WoW came out that think having 50 abilities to manage is better for the game. Maybe it's their preference, but we have plenty of evidence suggesting that it makes the game worse.

For one, PVP simply feels worse than it ever did in vanilla. And it's been getting worse with every xpac since WOTLK.

I agree with what you said, apart from the last bit. I have played this game since day one (off and on in the recent xpacs), and PvP feels more balanced and enjoyable now than it has ever before. Due to the reduced role of gear and increase utility across the board - relative to earlier xpacs - fights often last longer, thus providing the players with more and more opportunities to beat the other player. What people are getting confused by is that they no longer get to properly time one thing and win as a result. That is what you keep seeing in all of these forum posts: YOU CAN't OUTPLAY ANYONE ANYMORE!!!, etc.

Just think about that for one second and you will realize how downright silly that proposition is. You can't outplay anyone? How does one player beat another player, if that is the case? Does movement, ability timing, trinket timing, ability chaining, and the like not matter anymore? What is really happening is that fights are simply lasting longer and players are forced to be better for longer periods of time as opposed to previous iterations of this game in which you simply needed to do your damage rotation and time one interrupt to secure a kill against another player.

[szandos]

No sense of progression since pvp gear was removed. I'd rather have the old system and sometimes be steamrolled by a well geared pre-made and still feel I get stronger and stronger.

Stupid pre-made groups in random bg's. Limit queueing to max players 2 at the same time.

Multi-boxing. Coming up against the idiot running 15 unholy dk's with all the pets summoned lagging you out and dots killing you in seconds is not in any way fun.

[shoegazing]

That's why I'm saying just slap in an experimental BG where you load up into some pre-canned classes - call it Tides of Darkness and model it after WC2, alliance get some paladins, archers, footmen, etc. and just see how that works - as long as it's a form and ability change and not a vehicle, it'll work fine.

It'll also be a huge success.

.........................go play warcraft III or a MOBA if that is what you want..................................

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increase utility across the board - relative to earlier xpacs

lol wat? this is the least amount of utility / most amount of raw damage ever in PvP lol.



what utility is involved in these matches? in the first match he turrets frostbolt 7x in a row, lands a random polymorph on the healer, and then one shots a dps with orb/ebonbolt... where is all this utility that you mongs who probably don't even play rated but just queue random BGs all day keep telling me about? lmfao

now on the other hand here is a clip from Cataclysm which was by no means the best expansion but let's just look at how much different the gameplay in PvP was then vs. how it is now



anyone saying there is more emphasis on utility in Legion is UTTERLY CLUELESS. Legion is the expansion for dumbed down 5 button classes

[Nzete]

Back when I had more buttons (MoP), and challenger was around the 1780 range, I felt good about pulling of a spectral guise (removed), psychic scream (removed from holy), mind control, chastise sequence on the enemy healer to help get a kill. And each of those was full length because they were on separate DR.

And all these ranged interrupts on melee can please go die in a fire. If you are melee, actually succeeding in getting away from you (a very unlikely event, probably only happens because you wanted to hit someone else) should have some real benefits.

[Crruor]

THANK YOU! This is what I said in my video and yet people are thumbing it down like its going out of style. When Blizzard made gear irrelevant and REMOVED all progression from ranked PVP and REMOVED pvp vendors and introduced this absolutley attrocious RNG system into pvp, it all but nuked the competive pvp scene. Talking about ranked arenas and rated battlegrounds of course. I don't mind them doing this for random bgs as that doesnt count in my eyes. I just feel like this expansion was a giant F' you to the competitive pvp community.

No, it didnt kill the competitive scene. In fact that has nothing to do with the competitive part of the pvpers, what it killed was the casual scene. The people that capped for gear and then played a bit, those got screwed. The competitive pvp community has asked for ages for gear not to matter, and for good reason. If you started 2 weeks late you were at a severe disadvantage pretty much in every single season. Even the catchup conquest couldnt mask that.

Im all for the return of the wod/mop system of getting pvp gear, but that is for the casuals. I like getting better and better gear wise, till you feel like a god in a random bg. That is fun, that gives progression even for people unable or unwilling to climb the ladder. But its not a FU to the competitive scene.

[Kagthul]

No, it didnt kill the competitive scene. In fact that has nothing to do with the competitive part of the pvpers, what it killed was the casual scene. The people that capped for gear and then played a bit, those got screwed. The competitive pvp community has asked for ages for gear not to matter, and for good reason. If you started 2 weeks late you were at a severe disadvantage pretty much in every single season. Even the catchup conquest couldnt mask that.

Im all for the return of the wod/mop system of getting pvp gear, but that is for the casuals. I like getting better and better gear wise, till you feel like a god in a random bg. That is fun, that gives progression even for people unable or unwilling to climb the ladder. But its not a FU to the competitive scene.

Its also pretty much a requirement to make the competitive scene work, though, as you need the casuals to fill up the bottom of the ladder.

[Ohmega]

lol wat? this is the least amount of utility / most amount of raw damage ever in PvP lol.

what utility is involved in these matches? in the first match he turrets frostbolt 7x in a row, lands a random polymorph on the healer, and then one shots a dps with orb/ebonbolt... where is all this utility that you mongs who probably don't even play rated but just queue random BGs all day keep telling me about? lmfao

now on the other hand here is a clip from Cataclysm which was by no means the best expansion but let's just look at how much different the gameplay in PvP was then vs. how it is now

anyone saying there is more emphasis on utility in Legion is UTTERLY CLUELESS. Legion is the expansion for dumbed down 5 button classes

No one said that Legion has placed more emphasis on utility than all previous xpacs. What Legion is focusing on is streamlining and finding the sweet-spot between saturation and simplicity (as any game should). Legion has also attempted to focus on mechanical balance and have achieved such a state (fairly well, at least) in short order.

Are you going to say that Vanilla/TBC/WoTLK had more classwide utility than Legion? Come on....

More buttons does not automatically equal better. I much prefer the longer-battle, gear-neutral approach to PvP that Legion has taken relative to all of its previous xpacs. Far more enjoyable.

Tip: When doing a comparison, try to do a 1-1 type example as opposed to showing what 2x frost mage in 2s looks like now relative to a 3s arena that does not even contain two mages on the same team. Just dumb.

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No, it didnt kill the competitive scene. In fact that has nothing to do with the competitive part of the pvpers, what it killed was the casual scene. The people that capped for gear and then played a bit, those got screwed. The competitive pvp community has asked for ages for gear not to matter, and for good reason. If you started 2 weeks late you were at a severe disadvantage pretty much in every single season. Even the catchup conquest couldnt mask that.

Im all for the return of the wod/mop system of getting pvp gear, but that is for the casuals. I like getting better and better gear wise, till you feel like a god in a random bg. That is fun, that gives progression even for people unable or unwilling to climb the ladder. But its not a FU to the competitive scene.

Correct. Most people talking about the lack of involvement in PvP are utterly missing the boat.

[shoegazing]

Its also pretty much a requirement to make the competitive scene work, though, as you need the casuals to fill up the bottom of the ladder.

it's easy to design a system that works for everybody. here's how simple it is:

for casual PvP: just use basically the same gearing system as WoD (split PvE/PvP ilvl), minus the ashran RNG. let people earn points and then go spend then on gear. the gear has lower ilvl in PvE content, but the best gear for PvP is earned by doing PvP. eventually if you play enough casual PvP you will have a full set of gear which is BiS for PvP and at least passable for getting started in PvE though not ideal.

for competitive PvP: gear doesn't matter at all inside rated PvP. your ilvl doesn't matter. not 1% stats for 10 ilvls like it is currently, but go all the way. all honor talents are unlocked in rated PvP. full artifacts are unlocked in rated PvP. the instant you ding 110, you are ready to compete with only your skills holding you back. however people should still be allowed to choose whether they want to have more mastery in their template or more crit rating. you earn the same gear from doing rated that you would earn from doing casual, there just isn't any benefit inside rated for equipping it. this gives people doing casual an incentive to check out rated, without forcing them (you can get the same gear from playing casual only, it just might take you a little longer because you don't have that big conquest cap that comes from getting a high rating).

boom, everyone is happy.

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Tip: When doing a comparison, try to do a 1-1 type example as opposed to showing what 2x frost mage in 2s looks like now relative to a 3s arena that does not even contain two mages on the same team. Just dumb.

You are so extremely ignorant. The only reason this class stacking is so widespread now in Legion is because utility is so deemphasized that there isn't a real drawback to stacking 2 of the same class even though it doesn't bring any additional utility that you don't already have.

Who cares that the 2nd mage doesn't provide any additional utility benefit that the first mage didn't already bring? Legion gameplay is all about the damage damage damage.

It's the same thing with e.g. double boomkin. I literally ran boomkin/boomkin/rdruid (my 4th alt by the way) to 2k mmr two weeks ago because it DOESN'T MATTER that none of is bringing unique utility when we can just stand in overlapped Starfall spamming our /lol macros. PvP in this expansion is completely brainless and the only people who don't realize it are those who are too casual to know better.

It's impossible to do a 1-1 comparison because class stacking wasn't happening to this extent in previous expansions because unlike this dumbass PvE damage race Legion gameplay, utility ACTUALLY MATTERED. Try not to let the entire point of the argument fly straight over your head next time.

[Deleted]

Long story short rewards are just awful for pvp. People will pvp more if a reward path was clear and obtainable. My DK still does not have the shoulders for the pvp to drop and it drives me crazy.

Cosmetics aside casual pvp gear is terrible and very low item level. Spending 20 minutes in LFR can get you from 825 to 855 ilevel from a fresh 110. Meanwhile 20 minutes in pvp could lead you to a lose winning nothing at all and wasting your time.

To make it worse doing pve GREATLY helps you for pvp also. Again making you pve rather than pvp for gear.

All pvp streamers are gone, and the pvp community in general is dead. There was more people doing pvp in a dead expansion on its last leg in warlords than in legion which is really sad.

Honestly just bring back pvp gear rewards from vendors and change their item level slightly lower than the relevant raid tier at the time. People can not continue on this current system. Cartoonz looks like hes on his last leg as well and he is one of the last youtubers left.

[Ohmega]

You are so extremely ignorant. The only reason this class stacking is so widespread now in Legion is because utility is so deemphasized that there isn't a real drawback to stacking 2 of the same class even though it doesn't bring any additional utility that you don't already have.

Who cares that the 2nd mage doesn't provide any additional utility benefit that the first mage didn't already bring? Legion gameplay is all about the damage damage damage.

It's the same thing with e.g. double boomkin. I literally ran boomkin/boomkin/rdruid (my 4th alt by the way) to 2k mmr two weeks ago because it DOESN'T MATTER that none of is bringing unique utility when we can just stand in overlapped Starfall spamming our /lol macros. PvP in this expansion is completely brainless and the only people who don't realize it are those who are too casual to know better.

It's impossible to do a 1-1 comparison because class stacking wasn't happening to this extent in previous expansions because unlike this dumbass PvE damage race Legion gameplay, utility ACTUALLY MATTERED. Try not to let the entire point of the argument fly straight over your head next time.

You ignored pretty much all of my points. I will wait for you to address reality and then maybe we can move forward.

Also, you are assuming the conclusion of your argument is something specific without actually arriving at that conclusion based on evidence or points. Example of how this ought to work: I could easily say that the existence of class/spec stacking is a direct reflection of the prevalence of classwide utility, not the lack-thereof. The fact that double mage is not only viable, but potentially strong (assuming the players are good) is because that single class has enough capacity to lock down its opposition without assistance from other classes.

Whereas before you needed to bring in other classes because you lacked a certain type of cc or mitigation type ability. That is less the case now relative to most of this game's previous xpacs because every class has mitigation capacities as well as various forms of cc. There is a reason why nearly every spec within every class is viable in PvP now. Such a statement would have drawn laughs in earlier iterations of this game.

[shoegazing]

Also, you are assuming the conclusion of your argument is something specific without actually arriving at that conclusion based on evidence or points. Example of how this ought to work: I could easily say that the existence of class/spec stacking is a direct reflection of the prevalence of classwide utility, not the lack-thereof. The fact that double mage is not only viable, but potentially strong (assuming the players are good) is because that single class has enough capacity to lock down its opposition without assistance from other classes.

TFW when you realize the person you are arguing with is so ignorant that they don't even understand how DRs work...

Go watch the video and tell me with a straight face that the mage's "lockdown potential" is the reason that mage/mage/rdruid is viable LOL. Is that why they are winning games? Oh yes it is the lockdown potential that is allowing them to global people with 2x ebonbolt? It is the lockdown potential that is allowing them to cleave an entire team down with 2x frozen orb? Here's a tip you 1600 genius, the lockdown potential of 2x mage is no greater than the lockdown potential of 1x mage because DIMINISHING RETURNS exist on CC from the same category. if you do not understand this basic concept of PvP then there is zero chance that we will be able to have a productive conversation when you are just spewing ignorance.

Here's a recent thread about this issue on the arena forums where you can see there is a consensus that a lack of utility is the exact reason why such class stacking has become so prevalent: https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/...3606832?page=1

[Crruor]

TFW when you realize the person you are arguing with is so ignorant that they don't even understand how DRs work...

Go watch the video and tell me with a straight face that the mage's "lockdown potential" is the reason that mage/mage/rdruid is viable LOL. Oh yes it is the lockdown potential that is allowing them to global people with 2x ebonbolt? It is the lockdown potential that is allowing them to cleave an entire team down with 2x frozen orb? Here's a tip you 1600 genius, the lockdown potential of 2x mage is no greater than the lockdown potential of 1x mage because DIMINISHING RETURNS exist on CC from the same category. if you do not understand this basic concept of PvP then there is zero chance that we will be able to have a productive conversation when you are just spewing ignorance.

Here's a recent thread about this issue on the arena forums where you can see there is a consensus that a lack of utility is the exact reason why such class stacking has become so prevalent: https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/...3606832?page=1

It is though, it totally fucks melee. The different roots dont DR each other, and the 85% or whatever cone of cold is also doesnt DR. And since the non DRing roots are random and come from blizzard more mages means more control. And it allows you to sheep multiple targets at once.

[sarkarin]

it's easy to design a system that works for everybody. here's how simple it is:

for casual PvP: just use basically the same gearing system as WoD (split PvE/PvP ilvl), minus the ashran RNG. let people earn points and then go spend then on gear. the gear has lower ilvl in PvE content, but the best gear for PvP is earned by doing PvP. eventually if you play enough casual PvP you will have a full set of gear which is BiS for PvP and at least passable for getting started in PvE though not ideal.

Having the gear be worthless in PvE by having a lower ilvl is part of the problem. One of the reasons they did away with the old 'lower ilvl' system for PvP was because they wanted to make gear just 'gear' and not 'pve gear' or 'pvp gear' because it alienated players who went from one activity to another. The very fact that gear becomes worthless when transitioning to other parts of the game is detrimental to a player's gaming experience.

In a way we are using the old failed system because they did not follow through with any new ideas about how to gear in PvP and it's a huge failure that further decimated a shrinking and already small community. Every PvP gear has Versatility which doesn't allow players to build their correct stats thus making it worthless in PvE content. The gear is also significantly harder to get and has a low ilvl.

[shoegazing]

It is though, it totally fucks melee. The different roots dont DR each other, and the 85% or whatever cone of cold is also doesnt DR. And since the non DRing roots are random and come from blizzard more mages means more control. And it allows you to sheep multiple targets at once.

most high rated teams right now are caster cleaves. boomkins, frost mages, and demo locks are the tier 1 specs right now. frost mage snares / anti melee capabilities are NOT the reason why 2x frost mage is succeeding high on the ladder because most teams high on the ladder right now are not melee.

BTW as a melee main I do agree that frost's roots and snares are totally insane and OP, that just isn't the reason that the comp is seeing success right now... it's seeing success because they can lock e.g. Clarity of Will out of Invis into 2x Blinkcasted Ebonbolt + 2x Frozen Orb and delete you from the game

the other reason for their success is because it does so well against demo locks (one of the tier 1 specs on the ladder right now) because they can quickly reset the cooldown of their Frozen Orb by using Blizzard to hit a million different warlock pets.

[Ohmega]

TFW when you realize the person you are arguing with is so ignorant that they don't even understand how DRs work...

Go watch the video and tell me with a straight face that the mage's "lockdown potential" is the reason that mage/mage/rdruid is viable LOL. Is that why they are winning games? Oh yes it is the lockdown potential that is allowing them to global people with 2x ebonbolt? It is the lockdown potential that is allowing them to cleave an entire team down with 2x frozen orb? Here's a tip you 1600 genius, the lockdown potential of 2x mage is no greater than the lockdown potential of 1x mage because DIMINISHING RETURNS exist on CC from the same category. if you do not understand this basic concept of PvP then there is zero chance that we will be able to have a productive conversation when you are just spewing ignorance.

Here's a recent thread about this issue on the arena forums where you can see there is a consensus that a lack of utility is the exact reason why such class stacking has become so prevalent: https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/...3606832?page=1

Yes, that is why it is viable. The immense amount of slows, the constant roots, the polys, etc. You are confusing the length of cc with its effectiveness, and that is just silly. Why do their aoe spells work so well? Because of the lockdown potential that two frost mages gives a team. They can essentially root people indefinitely (not including the druid).

Any other points or do you want to just continue to prove mine make more sense?