Why pvp feels so bad this expansion

[Crruor]

most high rated teams right now are caster cleaves. boomkins, frost mages, and demo locks are the tier 1 specs right now. frost mage snares / anti melee capabilities are NOT the reason why 2x frost mage is succeeding high on the ladder because most teams high on the ladder right now are not melee.

BTW as a melee main I do agree that frost's roots and snares are totally insane and OP, that just isn't the reason that the comp is seeing success right now... it's seeing success because they can lock e.g. Clarity of Will out of Invis into 2x Blinkcasted Ebonbolt + 2x Frozen Orb and delete you from the game

But its is a fact that the utility is insane. And the only reason orb works is due to the slows/roots keeping them in place.

[shoegazing]

Having the gear be worthless in PvE by having a lower ilvl is part of the problem. One of the reasons they did away with the old 'lower ilvl' system for PvP was because they wanted to make gear just 'gear' and not 'pve gear' or 'pvp gear' because it alienated players who went from one activity to another. The very fact that gear becomes worthless when transitioning to other parts of the game is detrimental to a player's gaming experience.

In a way we are using the old failed system because they did not follow through with any new ideas about how to gear in PvP and it's a huge failure that further decimated a shrinking and already small community. Every PvP gear has Versatility which doesn't allow players to build their correct stats thus making it worthless in PvE content. The gear is also significantly harder to get and has a low ilvl.

how was 710 ilvl gear "worthless" in PvE in WoD? maybe for heroic/mythic raiding that is worthless but at 740 PvP ilvl it was BiS in PvP and at 710 in PvE it was still an upgrade for the majority of players who aren't hardcore raiders

[Ohmega]

But its is a fact that the utility is insane. And the only reason orb works is due to the slows/roots keeping them in place.

Precisely.

[Crruor]

how was 710 ilvl gear "worthless" in PvE in WoD? maybe for heroic/mythic raiding that is worthless but at 740 PvP ilvl it was BiS in PvP and at 710 in PvE it was still an upgrade for the majority of players who aren't hardcore raiders

Yeah, in wod heroic endraid gear was 705-720ilvl, pvp gear was quite good. Same in MOP, pvp gear usually is almost as good as heroic gear.

[Ohmega]

most high rated teams right now are caster cleaves. boomkins, frost mages, and demo locks are the tier 1 specs right now. frost mage snares / anti melee capabilities are NOT the reason why 2x frost mage is succeeding high on the ladder because most teams high on the ladder right now are not melee.

BTW as a melee main I do agree that frost's roots and snares are totally insane and OP, that just isn't the reason that the comp is seeing success right now... it's seeing success because they can lock e.g. Clarity of Will out of Invis into 2x Blinkcasted Ebonbolt + 2x Frozen Orb and delete you from the game

the other reason for their success is because it does so well against demo locks (one of the tier 1 specs on the ladder right now) because they can quickly reset the cooldown of their Frozen Orb by using Blizzard to hit a million different warlock pets.

As if roots/slows/snares don't allow casters to get caught in frost mage aoe damage and burst like they do for melee..........

[Dizzeeyooo]

The different roots dont DR each other

yes they do

And since the non DRing roots are random and come from blizzard more mages means more control

blizzard can proc frostbite 3 times in a row, and then the target is immune to frostbite and all other roots for 15 seconds

mages don't spec frostbite for the root, they spec it because the only other non trash talent on that tier removes fof procs - means the mage does less damage with how the spec currently plays

[shoegazing]

As if roots/slows/snares don't allow casters to get caught in frost mage aoe damage and burst like they do for melee..........

yes because high rated caster teams don't know not to stack on each other vs double mage lol

FFS did any of you even watch the clips or are you just speculating on how this comp works?

https://clips.twitch.tv/FilthyOutsta...othGingerPower

[Doctor Funkenstein]

"i cannot beat a healer 1vs1" you do just that in the fucking video. You shouldn't be able to mongo spam a healer down doing a pve rotation, 1 dps should never be able to solo a healer because if that were to be the case, healers are irrelevant, if 1 dps can solo them, two will just destroy one.

How does that logic even make any sense to you.

"[Role] should be able to all but ignore [other role], because if it's a fair fight, TWO [other roles] will destroy one!" Well no shit, Sherlock. It doesn't matter if they're a healer, tank, or DPS in either position. Everyone should stand a chance of winning against everyone else one-on-one.

Blizzard's inane "rock-paper-scissors" philosophy of old was dumb even back when it still existed in-game. Now it's completely obliterated in favor of "healers beat everyone," with clowns like you arguing that it's a good thing.

[Cempa]

Simply put:

Too many melee specs in the game today ...
DH ability to survive and damage in BG / WQ / 2v2 is broken ..

[Ohmega]

yes because high rated caster teams don't know not to stack on each other vs double mage lol

FFS did any of you even watch the clips or are you just speculating on how this comp works?

https://clips.twitch.tv/FilthyOutsta...othGingerPower

In the clip you shared, the initial kill in the first exchange is made possible by utility coupled with burst;

In the second match, the druid creates a snowball type situation by being caught out of position and subsequently getting "caught" by mage burst on account of the slows provided by the mages. After this took place, the group kind of huddled together and ate a massive amount of aoe damage from the mages, all made possible by poor movement by the opposition coupled with aoe slows/roots (utility);

In the third match, stuns into polys into slows into snares coupled with the group being huddled together made for an easy win. (Once again, a function of utility);

In the fourth match.......you get the picture.

The overarching theme of that team is cc/utility-CREATED burst windows. Just look at the Gladius window in each fight. The amount of slows, roots, stuns, silences, cyclones, is through the roof.

[shoegazing]

In the clip you shared, the initial kill in the first exchange is made possible by utility coupled with burst;

In the second match, the druid creates a snowball type situation by being caught out of position and subsequently getting "caught" by mage burst on account of the slows provided by the mages. After this took place, the group kind of huddled together and ate a massive amount of aoe damage from the mages, all made possible by poor movement by the opposition coupled with aoe slows/roots (utility);

In the third match, stuns into polys into slows into snares coupled with the group being huddled together made for an easy win. (Once again, a function of utility);

In the fourth match.......you get the picture.

The overarching theme of that team is cc/utility-CREATED burst windows. Just look at the Gladius window in each fight. The amount of slows, roots, stuns, silences, cyclones, is through the roof.

yeah wow a single interrupt on penance (mages have had counterspell since vanilla btw, but they no longer have the option of speccing into improved counterspell to get a blanket silence instead of a mere lockout) and a 3 second root on the hunter. #SoMuchUtility it's definitely the utility that is over the top Kappa

the comp only has a single stun (bash). counterspell has been nerfed since vanilla. polymorph has been nerfed since vanilla. cyclone has been nerfed since BC. the only thing that is over the top now compared to then is the snares and roots. and even roots didn't DR in vanilla until patch 1.4 because you could literally spam root someone under water until they drowned lol.

your entire argument is based on "alternative facts"

[Ohmega]

yeah wow a single interrupt on penance (mages have had counterspell since vanilla btw, but they no longer have the option of speccing into improved counterspell to get a blanket silence instead of a mere lockout) and a 3 second root on the hunter. #SoMuchUtility

the comp only has a single stun (bash). counterspell has been nerfed since vanilla. polymorph has been nerfed since vanilla. cyclone has been nerfed since BC. the only thing that is over the top now compared to then is the snares and roots. and even roots didn't DR in vanilla until patch 1.4 because you could literally spam root someone under water until they drowned lol.

your entire argument is based on "alternative facts"

It is not my fault you are unable to see the interactions going on. Your shortsightedness is not my problem.

It is not a single cc source that is over-the-top; instead, it is the collection that makes that comp so strong. How can you watch the video you shared and see anything else? My short/crude breakdown pointed out just a touch of what took place in several of the matchups contained in the shared clip. Are you going to say that because poly and cyclone have been nerfed in the past that they are no longer considered strong sources of CC? I know you are not that out of touch.....

Are you also going to ignore the effect those slows/snares have on their ability to land their burst and/or subsequent ccs?

[shoegazing]

It is not my fault you are unable to see the interactions going on. Your shortsightedness is not my problem.

It is not a single cc source that is over-the-top; instead, it is the collection that makes that comp so strong. How can you watch the video you shared and see anything else? My short/crude breakdown pointed out just a touch of what took place in several of the matchups contained in the shared clip. Are you going to say that because poly and cyclone have been nerfed in the past that they are no longer considered strong sources of CC? I know you are not that out of touch.....

Are you also going to ignore the effect those slows/snares have on their ability to land their burst and/or subsequent ccs?

3 second root on hunter. interrupt penance. one shot.

somehow CC is the problem here? lol

[Ohmega]

3 second root on hunter. interrupt penance. one shot.

somehow CC is the problem here? lol

What point in that double mage video are you referring to?

Are you just going to keep ignoring all of my points? You just get to keep your same position in light of all of the observations/arguments I have made? Seems odd.

[shoegazing]

What point in that double mage video are you referring to?

Are you just going to keep ignoring all of my points? You just get to keep your same position in light of all of the observations/arguments I have made? Seems odd.

https://clips.twitch.tv/FilthyOutsta...othGingerPower

he literally puts the hunter in a CoC snare (my bad, called it a root earlier), interrupts penance, and they oneshot the priest during the lockout lmfao

yes frost mage snares are absolutely broken right now and will probably be nerfed soon. but their overall CC keeps getting reduced (for instance deep freeze was pruned, improved counterspell was pruned, etc), like many other classes. ferals no longer have cyclone. rogues don't have gouge/disarm/shiv/garrote. traditionally CC & utility oriented classes keep having those things reduced and they get compensated with more raw damage.

however Blizzard has also pruned anti-CC utility such as grounding totem (now resto only) and tremor totem (pruned outright). and in MoP they put an 8 sec CD on defensive dispels so now you sit a lot more CC because where before your healer could dispel you now they dispel 1 CC but it gets immediately recast and you have to sit it. so it doesn't FEEL like CC is reduced but that's because defensive utility has been pruned just as much as offensive utility.

PvP in this game is more damage oriented than ever before. even RMDs, the king of CC comps, were just running at healers with assass/fire specs and killing in the first 30 seconds. it's absolutely disgusting.

playing a rogue in PvP now literally boils down to 1. watching stun DRs and 2. running at someone while PvEing them 3. maybe if you are feeling fancy you track combat flagging and go for some nice saps. that's all there is to it, and you can achieve reasonably high ratings without even worrying about #3. it's so insanely dumbed down compared to every previous expansion.

[Crruor]

https://clips.twitch.tv/FilthyOutsta...othGingerPower

he literally puts the hunter in a CoC snare (my bad, called it a root earlier), interrupts penance, and they oneshot the priest during the lockout lmfao

yes frost mage snares are absolutely broken right now and will probably be nerfed soon. but their overall CC keeps getting reduced (for instance deep freeze was pruned, improved counterspell was pruned, etc), like many other classes. ferals no longer have cyclone. rogues don't have gouge/disarm/shiv/garrote. traditionally CC & utility oriented classes keep having those things reduced and they get compensated with more raw damage.

however Blizzard has also pruned anti-CC utility such as grounding totem (now resto only) and tremor totem (pruned outright). and in MoP they put an 8 sec CD on defensive dispels so now you sit a lot more CC because where before your healer could dispel you now they dispel 1 CC but it gets immediately recast and you have to sit it. so it doesn't FEEL like CC is reduced but that's because defensive utility has been pruned just as much as offensive utility.

PvP in this game is more damage oriented than ever before. even RMDs, the king of CC comps, were just running at healers with assass/fire specs and killing in the first 30 seconds. it's absolutely disgusting.

playing a rogue in PvP now literally boils down to 1. watching stun DRs and 2. running at someone while PvEing them 3. maybe if you are feeling fancy you track combat flagging and go for some nice saps. that's all there is to it, and you can achieve reasonably high ratings without even worrying about #3. it's so insanely dumbed down compared to every previous expansion.

Pruning compared to WoD isnt really there. Take ferals, they have MORE CC now then they had before due to the maim talent, they themselves can get CCed more due to no more powershifting. A team that let a feral get of multiple clones in wod and especially Mop wasnt a very good one so they usually didnt get any. The rotation of a feral right now is a lot more complicated then it was in WOD and they have more buttons to press to do damage.

Or take mages, from wod to legion they lost deep but got blink + casting (which is much better gameplay then having the game work around a 30 second deep-sheep rythm), they got more dps abilities, more defensives - all around more.

I dont like current rogue design (especially fucking sub got murdered) but its not like combat rogues during wod were much better. And RMP does but nothing but run at healers in woltk too (at least on the alliance tournmanet realm). And dispell used to dispell only 1 thing, so if you got lucky you got a sheep and if you didnt you pressed dispell 6 times because of the amount of thrash buffs. So that was extremely rng heavy, now dispells dispell everything at least.


For most classes, compared to wod (and only wod) they have more "real" buttons now then they used to. Im not saying the pvp is better then it has been in all the previous expansions but i think its a lot better then WOD and i personally prefer it to woltk too but mop and especially Cata were a lot better (kept the ability of players to hardcarry but did a lot of the quality of life changes and fixed the stuff that sucked in woltk).

It comes down to personal opinion.

[Dizzeeyooo]

Or take mages, from wod to legion they lost deep but got blink + casting (which is much better gameplay then having the game work around a 30 second deep-sheep rythm), they got more dps abilities, more defensives - all around more

comparing wod mage pvp to legion mage pvp is comparing shit to shit, stop doing it

[Crruor]

comparing wod mage pvp to legion mage pvp is comparing shit to shit, stop doing it

Its what people are doing, and it is the most recent expansion. And current mages are imo better then wod mages.

[Dizzeeyooo]

And current mages are imo better then wod mages.

wod mage was icenova, poly, and deep freeze every 30 seconds - literally anything would be better then that, and all they did going from wod to legion for mages was prune more utility buttons and add more damage buttons/passives

wod/legion mage pvp compared to mage pvp in any other expansion is literally so horrible, boring and simplified, like most other specs in the game

[shoegazing]

Pruning compared to WoD isnt really there. Take ferals, they have MORE CC now then they had before due to the maim talent, they themselves can get CCed more due to no more powershifting. A team that let a feral get of multiple clones in wod and especially Mop wasnt a very good one so they usually didnt get any. The rotation of a feral right now is a lot more complicated then it was in WOD and they have more buttons to press to do damage.

Or take mages, from wod to legion they lost deep but got blink + casting (which is much better gameplay then having the game work around a 30 second deep-sheep rythm), they got more dps abilities, more defensives - all around more.

I dont like current rogue design (especially fucking sub got murdered) but its not like combat rogues during wod were much better. And RMP does but nothing but run at healers in woltk too (at least on the alliance tournmanet realm). And dispell used to dispell only 1 thing, so if you got lucky you got a sheep and if you didnt you pressed dispell 6 times because of the amount of thrash buffs. So that was extremely rng heavy, now dispells dispell everything at least.


For most classes, compared to wod (and only wod) they have more "real" buttons now then they used to. Im not saying the pvp is better then it has been in all the previous expansions but i think its a lot better then WOD and i personally prefer it to woltk too but mop and especially Cata were a lot better (kept the ability of players to hardcarry but did a lot of the quality of life changes and fixed the stuff that sucked in woltk).

It comes down to personal opinion.

I actually don't disagree with a lot of what you said here but as someone who has mained sub rogue since classic WoW this is by far my least favorite expansion and I'm sure you can easily understand why