fire mage and shiet dps

[ssviolett]

Fire mages are below average in Nighthold, we are about middle pack at best. Our ST is near the bottom but our cleave/AoE is one of the best.

One of the best cleave? Hmm, somehow I'm not sure ... https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/11#boss=1886
Our AoE is the best? When you pull 20+ scorpids on Scorpyron - yes, it is, but in the real fight? https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/9 - there is your AoE, somewhere in the middle.

[Frostyspeed]

One of the best cleave? Hmm, somehow I'm not sure ... https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/11#boss=1886
Our AoE is the best? When you pull 20+ scorpids on Scorpyron - yes, it is, but in the real fight? https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/9 - there is your AoE, somewhere in the middle.

You clearly have no idea how logs work on Botanist. Logs on botanist ignore all sorts of cleave damage since the bosses heal up. If you want to talk in a smug tone, then atleast back it up with real numbers. The best representation of AoE in Nighthold is Tichondrius mythic. https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/11#boss=1862 here you go.

Also linking mythic keystone logs does not make a difference since there are many factors that go into DPS performance of classes in Mythic plus, in general we are talking about raiding, or atleast I am.

[Deleted]

Few doing it ok then thanks all. Running about 52% crit atm

[Zenfoldor]

I got some new shoulders.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...tofmana/simple

Brings my crit down to 51%, but sims 8% higher on pawn using my custom simcraft stat weights. Old shoulders are 15 ilvls lower, but have crit and get me up to say, 54%.

Should I wear the new shoulders? I'm worried about crit dipping below 50%.

[Alvito]

yup and it isnt getting better in 7.2 atm, with the new artifact traits ice lance gets up to 40% extra dmg on frozen targets, fire gets 4 secs increased combust duration and ice lance is already doing something close to 50% of a frost mage's dmg and 4 secs extra combust isnt going to be much of an increase dpswise, im really unhappy with fire's new traits, they are so weak.

Yeah 4 seconds is 2 more pyros at max damage, a drop in a bucket for overall damage.

[Deleted]

Or you could just switch between specs like most people do. Go frost for single target and your cleave/aoe is just fine already as fire.
Good times.

[Alvito]

I was under the impression you do not cast bracers during combustion even if you get proc. You finish out your combustion rotation then cast the proc because you should have at least 5 seconds left on bracer proc at the end of combustion depending at what point it proc'd. I had read that it is a dps loss to cast during combustion. Was that wrong? Should I be using my proc during combustion? Seems like I'd waste a lot of my combustion time just hardcasting.

I admit I just got the bracers 2 days ago so I have not had a chance to really play with them but once I got them I did some reading up on how people were using them.

Also using AF always with helm. Again, I thought you use AF with helm during AoE fights but during ST fights FO was a better choice? I think it was said the dps is pretty much equal but the synergy is better doing it that way since usually during AoE fights you would spec RoP and AF and RoP work well together.

You don't it wastes far too much time during combustion. Just like you meteor and then cast combustion so meteor hits which combustion active and you don't waste a gcd mid combustion and not get the full combustion buff on the dmg on the floor.

[gallamann]

Crit is by far the worst stat during scorch phase because of the fact your Scorch is a guaranteed crit and so is your Fire Blast/Phoenix Flame. Haste pulls ahead the most sub 30%. Also, there is no 'definite' playstyle below 30% other than using Scorch as your generator instead of Fireball. There is no need to use PF/FBlast for specific scenarios. Its best to save them for periods of procs/multi target and keeping them uncapped. Even if you save them and the boss is like 4% HP, and you just chain PF and Fblasts and Pyros without scorching at the end, its the same DPS. If you save your PF/FBlast for periods of procs/adds then youll see more DPS sniping opportunities.

Strictly talking <30% and belt legendary..

I would think our worse stat is either mastery or versatility. Haste has almost identical drawbacks, FB, PF and Pyro in that all those are instant. Further raid pops hero and haste just lost value. Scorch and Pyro are still incurring the GCD of 1 sec, haste doesn't change that. In reality it is probably a wash sub 30% with belt because the crit heavy also has haste, while the haste heavy also has crit.

Are you saying it's not worth using combust burn phase sub 30% and therefore no need to bank 2 FB/ 2 PF for that?

Otherwise all was saying is when no HU, force it so scorch gives a HS.

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Also wanted to comment on....

Also linking mythic keystone logs does not make a difference since there are many factors that go into DPS performance of classes in Mythic plus, in general we are talking about raiding, or atleast I am.

While I don't disagree with what you are saying, Blizzard does. They have stated that balance is looking at both Mythic+ and Raiding.

Other thing Blizzard has insisted on keeping is this notion that pure DPS classes should have niches.

Toss in their favoring melee this expac... oh well

[Frostyspeed]

Strictly talking <30% and belt legendary..

I would think our worse stat is either mastery or versatility. Haste has almost identical drawbacks, FB, PF and Pyro in that all those are instant. Further raid pops hero and haste just lost value. Scorch and Pyro are still incurring the GCD of 1 sec, haste doesn't change that. In reality it is probably a wash sub 30% with belt because the crit heavy also has haste, while the haste heavy also has crit.

Are you saying it's not worth using combust burn phase sub 30% and therefore no need to bank 2 FB/ 2 PF for that?

Otherwise all was saying is when no HU, force it so scorch gives a HS.

******************

Also wanted to comment on....



While I don't disagree with what you are saying, Blizzard does. They have stated that balance is looking at both Mythic+ and Raiding.

Other thing Blizzard has insisted on keeping is this notion that pure DPS classes should have niches.

Toss in their favoring melee this expac... oh well

It is worth using combustion but i meant it as in, if you can combustion sub 30% (and honestly if you have the chance, you should do it pre 30% instead) then ofcourse you would do it and you'd want your PF charges for that. I meant it as in: Dont get in a mind set where you have to use PF or Fblast under 30% to generate heating ups. Its the same playstyle as >30% just with scorch instead of fireball essentially. This includes the nuances like getting a HS, casting another generator into a pyro (for an extra PI stack, not for heating up optimization).

In terms of stats, Id have to disagree with you. There is no way versatility is bad sub 30%. Versatility is currently simming as good as crit for me (905 ilevel) and I know other mages have similar results. Mastery could also be pretty bad. I think you may be misunderstanding haste. Haste may not reduce GCD lower than 1, but you need a pretty decent amount of haste to get you to 1s. I do not have metronome right now so that may be what is skewing my results but i dont find myself often getting GCD capped in execute phase. Even if lust + guldan trinket or whatever got me to 30%, that wouldnt last very long, and the raw gain of haste in windows of no procs, would still outweigh crit, which only affects pyroblast sub 30%.

For the mythic keystone thing, i think its important to decipher what blizzard are trying to say. They look at Mythic + for balance in the sense that they cannot buff a class' aoe without taking into account how it'll affect their M+ performance. In other words, i dont think mythic + performance is a good example of how a class' design is, but certain class features allow some to excel, and they need to make sure those classes stay in line, or they get their features taken away. A prime example of this is outlaw rogue with Marked for Death and legendary shoulders. On a consistant AoE fight they are good, but in mythic+ those reset mechanics are absolutely insane.

I do feel like fire mage ST and other aoe options deserve a buff. Currently, Flame Patch and Living Bomb are both very very strong in their specific scenarios. Having said that, thats pretty much what our AoE involves. I would like to see a buff to ignite which would potentially minorly buff ST and our AoE but to bring it a bit up to par. Also, buff pyroblast damage (Also possibly a nerf to bracers). The spell doesnt hit hard enough for how reliant we are on it. I think that Living Bomb is in need of another rework. I love the mechanic of this current iteration but its just hard to balance since it scales exponentially and the other 2 talents dont serve other scenarios very well. Fire mages are weak in around 3 target cleave relative to other classes. They either buff our ST to be atleast middle pack or they buff our 3 target or low target cleave. The single target seems like a much more likely option

[nickseng]

Probably not that pertinent, but haste reduces GCD to 0.75 for mages in Legion.

[Frostyspeed]

Probably not that pertinent, but haste reduces GCD to 0.75 for mages in Legion.

That is what I experience in game too, but when i googled it it said only 1 second. Thanks for confirming my suspicion ^^

- - - Updated - - -

I must admit, i've made a mistake in my posts before and after some testing to confirm it, i can definitely say that you should NOT cast a scorch before your pyro if you have hot streak up under 30%. So Scorch -> Scorch -> Scorch -> Pyro combo is wrong. You Scorch Scorch Pyro, or Scorch Fire Blast Pyro or Scorch PF Pyro etc etc. Idea is you want to just pyro without a cast before it sub 30% with belt. This is because Scorch has no cast time, so you will munch a heating up if your pyroblast didnt crit for like 2% extra damage at best on the pyro. This is a DPS loss. So definitely dont cast 3 scorches, you just pyro after hot streak sub 30% with belt legendary.

[Deleted]

Or you could just switch between specs like most people do. Go frost for single target and your cleave/aoe is just fine already as fire.
Good times.

true but with the artifact system the way it is or should have been that shouldnt be needed, 1 spec should provide everything you need for comparable dps like it does for most hybrid specs, atm it just doesnt and it isnt fair having to farm 108 traits to play optimally when most classes only need to farm 54 traits, blizz really screwed the pooch in terms of fire dps, having good aoe is fine but when said aoe is only useful on 2-3 fights then it becomes a problem, if having good aoe means im going to be shit on 70ish% of the fights then stuff needs to change.

[Deleted]

true but with the artifact system the way it is or should have been that shouldnt be needed, 1 spec should provide everything you need for comparable dps like it does for most hybrid specs, atm it just doesnt and it isnt fair having to farm 108 traits to play optimally when most classes only need to farm 54 traits, blizz really screwed the pooch in terms of fire dps, having good aoe is fine but when said aoe is only useful on 2-3 fights then it becomes a problem, if having good aoe means im going to be shit on 70ish% of the fights then stuff needs to change.

Thats not really true now is it?
I play a balance druid main and a frost mage alt.
I don't bring EVERYTHING on my balance druid, what I bring is spread AOE, my single target is lower then fire mages (look at warcraft logs) and my cleave is decent but only when specced into it.
That being said, I don't mind. Because you bring specs for their strengths and you work around their weaknesses.
Its the reason my raid is running a enchancement shaman and 2 rogues to make up for the dmg we lack on single target.

One spec should not be able to do everything, what is the who reason to have multiple specs if we do?

[Magictricks]

First time i got benched since Black temple was 1 month ago on krosus progression.

Feels bad man.

[D3athsting]

what i see is fire scaling extremely poorly with gear (hell my pyro does only 30k more dmg with 10 ilvl more on gear), in my first en run after 7.1.5 i topped meters everywhere and so i did in first NH run but as soon as other ppl started to get better gear i started falling more and more behind to the point that i switched to frost and luckily got frost bracers 2 days ago

[Deleted]

Thats not really true now is it?
I play a balance druid main and a frost mage alt.
I don't bring EVERYTHING on my balance druid, what I bring is spread AOE, my single target is lower then fire mages (look at warcraft logs) and my cleave is decent but only when specced into it.
That being said, I don't mind. Because you bring specs for their strengths and you work around their weaknesses.
Its the reason my raid is running a enchancement shaman and 2 rogues to make up for the dmg we lack on single target.

One spec should not be able to do everything, what is the who reason to have multiple specs if we do?

hence why i said "most hybrid specs".

the point is tho that your guild shouldnt have to bring 2 rouges and an enh sham to make up for your lack of ST dps and fyi, the whole purpose of the artifact system was for ppl only having to pick the spec they enjoy and they could stick with it, so 1 should should be able to do everything, all specs should bcoz we cant just pick a new spec out of the blue bcoz the 1 you picked got turned into shit for 80% of the fights and even worse if you dont have bis legendaries, for no reason at all, so your choice is to stick with your pick and do poorly on most fights or choose a new spec and both options literally prove that they've failed at their whole execution of the artifact system, not to mention the legendary system. dont get me wrong, i dont mind being middle of the pact as long as i feel somewhat worth taking, atm im neither and blizz seems to be fine with it and is more focused on releasing raid testing for the ptr than actually fixing class blancing.

[Imaskar]

The drama of the situation is indeed, that a lot of effort was put into "main" spec. I cant switch to full-time frost, because it is much less geared than my fire. 10 ilvl less weapon, 15 trait less, less optimised gear. My fire's ST is still bigger than frosts, but I can't get frost gear, because it is an offspec and other people roll for main. (And f*k you with your orange logs, we got people with grey, maybe they could do green with this piece).

[Deleted]

hence why i said "most hybrid specs".

the point is tho that your guild shouldnt have to bring 2 rouges and an enh sham to make up for your lack of ST dps and fyi, the whole purpose of the artifact system was for ppl only having to pick the spec they enjoy and they could stick with it, so 1 should should be able to do everything, all specs should bcoz we cant just pick a new spec out of the blue bcoz the 1 you picked got turned into shit for 80% of the fights and even worse if you dont have bis legendaries, for no reason at all, so your choice is to stick with your pick and do poorly on most fights or choose a new spec and both options literally prove that they've failed at their whole execution of the artifact system, not to mention the legendary system. dont get me wrong, i dont mind being middle of the pact as long as i feel somewhat worth taking, atm im neither and blizz seems to be fine with it and is more focused on releasing raid testing for the ptr than actually fixing class blancing.

The artifact is something you work towards? It doesn't mean you are locked into a spec.
I rerolled to Druid 3 weeks ago from hunter and I am now 54 in Balance and 37 in bear/36 in Resto. Its something you work on while you're playing the game.

You'er acting like you are forever bound to 1 spec and 1 class, I changed specs on hunter twice from BM to MM and back to BM. My MM weapon ended up on 47 before I rerolled while my BM one was 43.

I really don't see the issues you are describing.

[Imaskar]

Not everyone spend in the game 8+ hrs daily.

[wizardsnz]

Not everyone spend in the game 8+ hrs daily.

^^ this
/10char