Looking to get more competitive.

[Rotted]

The reason for Mercy over Lucio is her targetted heals are a lot more proficient which can keep a more viable target alive during pushes, not to mention her Ult is incredibly game changing if used correctly, as for Hanzo, there's just a stigma surrounding people who play him in the game, much like hunters in WoW.

A stigma that's well deserved, in three seasons I've only seen one actual hanzo player that is skilled, talking direct quick heat shots, nearly every hit. Most hanzos in comp get lucky from firing arrows randomly and continuously, which you can't rely on in comp,

The same goes for WM, unless you know you're shit hot at either of them, don't play either of them in comp

[Daymanmb]

Nah its "just okay", its nothing special whatsoever. Widows is better by leagues.

Youre reaching here. Comparing it to Widows Ult is apples and oranges. Its a 10s CD... Being able to see through walls is incredible for advantageous positioning. The thing is, his utility mostly ends there as the rest of what you said was pretty accurate, but to say he brings no utility just isnt.

[Jessicka]

He is not at all.

He might be fine if the 2-2-2 or triple tank meta were never a thing and the game was full of squishy heroes.

Except that Hanzo and Widow wreck tanks, especially at lower levels where they over-extend and get out of position a lot. Scatter itself one shots Zarya and Orisa. And you don't need godlike aim to hit them.

What hurts them higher up, is the number of barriers and they tend not to make those mistakes as much.

[Deleted]

First off, you play what the team needs. Don't ever expect people to play around you because that's impossible, if you want to play Hanzo ask in the beginning it's seriously better than having a tilting team at the start of the game. Learn the meta and when to pick a certain hero, be able to play support/tank heroes when needed. Hook up with another player that wants to improve and avoid soloq.

[Mormolyce]

Except that Hanzo and Widow wreck tanks, especially at lower levels where they over-extend and get out of position a lot. Scatter itself one shots Zarya and Orisa. And you don't need godlike aim to hit them.

No offence but that's extreme exaggeration. Heavy tank comps are the prime reason snipers aren't viable. And there's barriers galore in Gold.

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Hang on... his shift is amazing utility, especially against would be flankers/divers.

I actually think they could remove the cooldown on that arrow and Hanzo would STILL suck.

It's great but it just isn't impactful enough consistently enough, like the rest of his kit.

[Ealyssa]

People will hate you for Hanzo because of this shit reason - "There is rarely anyone who plays him well so, Hanzo is shit. It's not about the player." which is totally wrong. Hanzo is just fine.

Just nope.

Very few players are fine with Hanzo. That doesn't make him fine, at all. Really.

[Tharkkun]

Hanzo combined with Zarya is about the only combo that works. But there's typically better tanks than Zarya because you need Rein as well so you're picking Hanzo over say Pharah or Soldier.

[Onikaroshi]

If you play basically anything other than 2-2-2 in Gold or Plat, you will be flattened. Widow or Hanzo picks are frequently deadly to your team too.

The quality of play may be worse in lower ranks, but they stick to comps like glue. That much they know. If you pick something wacky, they'll simply overpower you on comp.

No, no they won't, I'm in the lower ranks and we barely play 2-2-2 and when we do is generally when we lose. We often win more with one decent Mercy and a couple of tanks making it 2 tanks 3 dps and 1 heal. Meta doesn't matter. And a good Hanzo or widow will completely wreck low ranks BECAUSE people don't hide, don't use barriers, etc. Problem is teams never give them a chance and just throw off the start.

Characters like torb and junk are also VERY effective at low ranks.

[Jester Joe]

Honestly if they aren't going to do something to fix Hanzo and Widow it'd probably be better for everyone if they did...

There's always Quick Play.

Hanzo is absolutely fine, especially if you pick him with Zarya. Their ults synergize extremely well, and when the Zarya lands her ult well, it will usually end in a team kill (unless they have a good Zenyatta).

[Woobels]

My opinion on Hanzo has changed, he's actually pretty decent and I'd prefer him over Widowmaker in a lot of cases.

Scatter is actually ridiculous and people have figured out how to abuse it enough that he isn't as free to dive onto anymore.

He's obviously still not a great pick but you can certainly do worse.

I can imagine him doing tons of work in the lower ranks too.

[Mormolyce]

Characters like torb and junk are also VERY effective at low ranks.

Junkrat yes, Torb... not in the games I've played.

I wouldn't say he's garbage like the snipers, he's decent on defence if you're good at him. I wouldn't say "VERY effective" though.

Hanzo is absolutely fine, especially if you pick him with Zarya. Their ults synergize extremely well, and when the Zarya lands her ult well, it will usually end in a team kill (unless they have a good Zenyatta).

IF you have a Hanzo and a Zarya synergising their ults, which is a big IF in low ranks.

Even in that scenario you'd still be better off picking almost anyone else.

[Jessicka]

I agree, very few players are fine with Hanzo. I agree that he is not fine when he is being played by crappy player. Really.

Most heroes are bad when they have a bad player behind them.

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IF you have a Hanzo and a Zarya synergising their ults, which is a big IF in low ranks.

Even in that scenario you'd still be better off picking almost anyone else.

There are a lot of Zaryas at low ranks, they all tend to be very bad as well.

[Deleted]

Hanzo and Widow are both fine as long as the player can play them. Like many have already said, sadly that's not the case for 99% of the people who pick them. And both of them also shine only on attack really, because they have very strong pick potential. One good headshot from attacking Widow can get you the point easily. Very few Widow pickers manage to do that though.

[Jessicka]

Hanzo and Widow are both fine as long as the player can play them. Like many have already said, sadly that's not the case for 99% of the people who pick them. And both of them also shine only on attack really, because they have very strong pick potential. One good headshot from attacking Widow can get you the point easily. Very few Widow pickers manage to do that though.

Like very few Reinhardts or DVas actually let the DPS do their fucking job and keep dropping their shields so they can play DPS as well. Again, this is a player issue, not a hero issue. Even if you get those kills that you're demanding, the Widow player still gets 100% of the fucking blame for a loss.

She and Hanzo have become convenient scapegoats. It's all that it is. You have to be fucking GM playing in Bronze apparently, and shockingly enough that doesn't happen.

[Explicit Teemo Nudes]

No, no they won't, I'm in the lower ranks and we barely play 2-2-2 and when we do is generally when we lose. We often win more with one decent Mercy and a couple of tanks making it 2 tanks 3 dps and 1 heal. Meta doesn't matter. And a good Hanzo or widow will completely wreck low ranks BECAUSE people don't hide, don't use barriers, etc. Problem is teams never give them a chance and just throw off the start.

Characters like torb and junk are also VERY effective at low ranks.

What is "low rank" in this case? I play in plat and Torb/Hanzo are rarely worth it in this low rank bracket.
Soldier is such a solid choice and works a lot better than a Torb spending the entire game trying to set up his fucking turret past the first turret stage or just parking his ass at his turret that he finally managed to set up at the far end in the final stage on Route attack instead of helping pushing the payload.

I'm all for not playing the meta, but atleast practice in QP before you try making things happen with heroes you can't play decently.

[Endus]

Like very few Reinhardts or DVas actually let the DPS do their fucking job and keep dropping their shields so they can play DPS as well. Again, this is a player issue, not a hero issue. Even if you get those kills that you're demanding, the Widow player still gets 100% of the fucking blame for a loss.

She and Hanzo have become convenient scapegoats. It's all that it is. You have to be fucking GM playing in Bronze apparently, and shockingly enough that doesn't happen.

A Reinhardt or D.va who only rely on their defensive tools aren't doing their jobs. If there's a specific push happening and you need to get the team through a choke, sure, use the shield; that's what it's for. But they aren't walking barriers for the DPS, either. A good Reinhardt is going to be using Fire Blast as much as possible, to stack his Ultimate. He's going to use his charge to dive (when his team's ready), or to get picks. He's going to drop the shield and use his hammer if an enemy flanker's in close and the DPS didn't prevent that, unless he's under heavy fire at that immediate moment.

Reinhardt's job is not to be a mobile wall for the DPS, ignoring the rest of his kit. There's a reason Reinhardt is one of the favored targets for Ana's ultimate.

Or to put it another way; if the DPS are "doing their fucking job", the Reinhardt won't have a REASON to drop his shield, other than moving faster to keep up with the push. If he's dropping it to swing his hammer, it's because the DPS aren't getting the picks that, by your own argument, they should have.

[Jessicka]

A Reinhardt or D.va who only rely on their defensive tools aren't doing their jobs. If there's a specific push happening and you need to get the team through a choke, sure, use the shield; that's what it's for. But they aren't walking barriers for the DPS, either. A good Reinhardt is going to be using Fire Blast as much as possible, to stack his Ultimate. He's going to use his charge to dive (when his team's ready), or to get picks. He's going to drop the shield and use his hammer if an enemy flanker's in close and the DPS didn't prevent that, unless he's under heavy fire at that immediate moment.

Reinhardt's job is not to be a mobile wall for the DPS, ignoring the rest of his kit. There's a reason Reinhardt is one of the favored targets for Ana's ultimate.

Or to put it another way; if the DPS are "doing their fucking job", the Reinhardt won't have a REASON to drop his shield, other than moving faster to keep up with the push. If he's dropping it to swing his hammer, it's because the DPS aren't getting the picks that, by your own argument, they should have.

It's their fucking job to give ranged DPS an opening on a Turret or Bastion or other hero shooting you at range. Not charge it.

Overly aggressive Reins are a problem. Shit it tells you everything when so many DVas are 2"whining that they can't be overly aggressive anymore.

[Endus]

It's their fucking job to give ranged DPS an opening on a Turret or Bastion or other hero shooting you at range. Not charge it.

Because you say so?

Particularly with D.va, she's MORE effective with her screen the closer she is. And she can screen AND boost at the same time. And with Reinhardt, if there's a Bastion he needs to shield you from, you've got a couple seconds to take that Bastion out before that shield drops, at best. If you're not dropping him and Rein charges, it's because you're not killing Bastion fast enough.

The tank's job is NOT to provide a defense screen for DPS, exclusively. And if the DPS aren't getting a constant stream of kills from behind that screen, the tank's gonna have to help out, because you're not capitalizing on it to begin with.

Rein's shield is a tool. It's an important tool, but it's just part of his kit. Playing him as a mobile wall is not effective at winning matches, because you're effectively half (or less) of a hero.

Rein or D.va can buy you a couple seconds to get the kill. That's it. If you're NOT getting the kill in that time, then it's a wasted effort. This is a team-based game. Not a "everyone exists to assist the DPS" game. If the DPS aren't supporting the tanks, then you aren't doing your jobs, either. That's the point.

[Jessicka]

Yeah and I'm saying a lot don't even use that tool, or they certainly don't pay attention when their DPS are using it as a screen. They use it to cover themselves and that's it.

There are bad players behind every hero. I used these as a classic example of where and how they're bad. But you want to give these guys a free pass and keep ragging on Widow and Hanzo, you go for it.

But shit. It's not like I spent most of my time in this game tanking, so what the fuck do I know when I see it done badly.

[Coconuter]

Sort of back at the OT but also in line with what Endus is saying.

The biggest thing is that you need team work as much as possible. I solo que 95% of the time and truly wish I had a team of six (I know others like 3-4 person ques, but I'd have much more fun with a coordinted6 person team myself). So, if you get into solo ques in some ways you're at the mercy of how many people want to play as a team on each side, while, do you're part to properly fill dps/heals/tanks as needed. If you're going into a game unwilling play only 1-3 different characters, then you are harming any group.

As such, I end up playing Zen and Rein more often than anything because of how often people only care to be DPS and now willing to care to change up.

Back to what Endus noted, it's tough as hell being Rein, Zen, or any other heal/tank I end up filling, other than Roadhog, because of a lack of teamwork.

As Rein, I need my team taking down their shield first, and if they aren't well, I do have to be aggressive until the DPS change up who they are playing or start making kills in the short amount of time I may have. As Zen, I constantly run into problems where on my screen I'm seeing multiple people in critical health all spread out and out of line of site, nowhere near the objective.

You need to work as a team, if your flankers are moving in, you need a central push at the same time. If you're having a push and you're not working with the team, you're deadweight waiting to get picked by DPS doing their job. Just remember you need to be flexible with who you play and play the objective as a team. Watch the twitch streams too, their positions on Defense and Offense help a lot and set up advantageous play styles.