New Rsham LF some tips to improve :)

[Deleted]

Hello everyone, as said in the title im new in the Rsham community since i rolled from my MMhunter to my sham.

We are a decent guild actually working on Gul'dan HM.
Our current healing setup is : 1 pal - 2 druids - 1 priest
Im taking our priest job since he wanted to switch on his shadow spec.

My Rsham atm Linkïa (dinged 110 some days ago)

Im currently interrested on the playstyle to stick on with our comp.

I actually saw 3 playstyles :
- One based on a hard Hchains build with the first talent giving +50%heal (unleash life)
- One based on a spamming the basic heal (HW/Ript.) with the extra tidal talent and the 2 charges ript.
- And another one based on "everything" with Cheal spamming and working on CDs to do the job (this is mine actually)

What i do :
I press my leg. trinket when strong aoe heal is needed (basically everytime its available )
Cloudburst totem some sec before aoe dmg
Ancestral Guidance when up
Healing rain on under the boss then spamming Cheal/riptide with some healing waves when no aoe is required (< 4 men needing heal)

I only have one warcraftlog (NH NM) since it was my first real healing raid, only get the 2pcs set on Gul'dan.
This isnt my guild logs, i went on the NM id with a friends guild. And since everyone was messing the strat, i got oom basically every fights.

I really like to heal with my sham and all i ask is to get better every day !
So, any tip ? Any advice on particular fights ? Any thing pointed out that i did wrong ?

Thank every one reading this

PS : eng. is not my native langage, sorry for the mitakes everywhere

[zoroaester]

So, for cbt try this rotation:

Healing rain, cbt, Gift of the queen, heal as normal. Try using CBT on cd, and poping it before it expires if you think the raid will be topped off. Only pocket it for a few seconds if any if you know raid damage is about to come out.

Since you have valens, I would say you should probably cloud burst, healing tide, and then valens. That combo should be nasty and should get you some really strong segments.

Other than that i would say just focus on your mana management inbetween periods of high burst dmg. I view myself as having two different phases of the fight. Dont be too liberal with chain heal, it is very mana intensive and you should save it for when the group is low to get your bang for the buck with it from your mastery. During phases of low raid dmg, spot heal with riptide and healing wave to allow for you mana to replinish from crits. Keep Healing stream on cd, and Healing rain up as long as there isnt movement coming and you should be gravy.

also this is just my opinion, swap torrent t1 for unleash life. IMPO torrent is only really good if your taking echoe of the elements. Unleash life plus a chain heal can load a cloud burst up nicely (and also hit everyone for a million a pop)

[Varly]

https://chainheal.com/resto-shaman-g...rst-totem-cbt/

Besides that website being awesome for resto in general, this is a really good article on the finer points of utilizing your CBT. A great example I learned is that the burst from the totem is centered at the shaman, NOT the totem.

[Pixlol]

9 / 10 mythic on a resto shaman i'll give you a few simple pointers I noticed looking through your logs.

First -

Change your talents from CBT to Echo and get used to that play style, you'll have to do it to maximize efficiency when you get 4 piece. Generally speaking, most of this content is sustain damage anyways, so burst healing that CBT doesn't isn't as efficient as more riptide procs because the HoT gets its full value. Also you want to maximize your Tidal Waves uptime and proc usage.

Second -

Partnered with changing your talent to echo, learn to weave your abilities based on procs. Riptide - > Chain heal - > LHW -> LHW is a simple weave, you'll have two Tidal wave procs to maximize your LHW haste buff (or 30% more crit from AG), and the chain heal will generally give you atleast 1 proc of queen ascendants as well.

Make sure you're using Healing rain when 6 or more people will be below 80% health (general rule of thumb I try to use), use GOTQ (wep proc) partnered with AG, Always have a healing rain down BEFORE you proc AG, and when you're in between things or need mana dont be afraid to cast a lightning bolt / GOTQ (when healing is needed and AG is not going to be used or is on CD), either one of those cast gives about 2% mana back over that time period.

The Echo procs are also very important with your 4 peice, becuase you'll want to use HST about ever 12 - 16 seconds to maximize your uptime. Generally speaking each HST is 1.3 - 1.6 million healing per cast passively.

Third -

Use your CD's / Trinkets when needed, not overlapping with other healers CD's. This is something most new healers have a hard time with, its all about Raid efficiency, as well as your own personal efficiency. If you're using Velen's trinket when everyone is nearly full health (even though it procs 20% of over healing to closest target) Its still less efficient then when people are low and your chain heal happens to heal 2-3 people with some over healing.

Fourth -

Totem placement, make sure any of your totems are always in range of all the players, even if that means you have to move out to an awkward area to place the totem. 400k on 4 targets is a lot of healing every few seconds, you don't want to miss out of that for your own healing, as well as those players health bars.

The class itself is very simple theory, but very complex to play at a very high level. The nice part is the class is very versatile in it can be large burst realign for a raid, or heal a tank and provides some of the best Raid CD's in the game. At the end of the day if you did your roll, and the boss dies you did a good job, but there are always things to do better.

[Deleted]

Change your talents from CBT to Echo and get used to that play style, you'll have to do it to maximize efficiency when you get 4 piece. Generally speaking, most of this content is sustain damage anyways, so burst healing that CBT doesn't isn't as efficient as more riptide procs because the HoT gets its full value. Also you want to maximize your Tidal Waves uptime and proc usage.

While I completely agree with most of what you're saying I think this reasoning is somewhat flawed. If you look at the hps done then a well played cloudburst is simply the hps stronger talent in a chainheal heavy build, even and especially on sustained damage. That being said, it is not very far ahead making echo a solid choice nonetheless. Echo is also a lot simpler to maximize, making it a better choice for beginners overall.
Having the legendary gloves and 4piece may influence that somehwat as hst gets a lot stronger.

[PraisCthulhu]

9 / 10 mythic on a resto shaman i'll give you a few simple pointers I noticed looking through your logs.

First -

Change your talents from CBT to Echo and get used to that play style, you'll have to do it to maximize efficiency when you get 4 piece. Generally speaking, most of this content is sustain damage anyways, so burst healing that CBT doesn't isn't as efficient as more riptide procs because the HoT gets its full value. Also you want to maximize your Tidal Waves uptime and proc usage.

Second -

Partnered with changing your talent to echo, learn to weave your abilities based on procs. Riptide - > Chain heal - > LHW -> LHW is a simple weave, you'll have two Tidal wave procs to maximize your LHW haste buff (or 30% more crit from AG), and the chain heal will generally give you atleast 1 proc of queen ascendants as well.

Make sure you're using Healing rain when 6 or more people will be below 80% health (general rule of thumb I try to use), use GOTQ (wep proc) partnered with AG, Always have a healing rain down BEFORE you proc AG, and when you're in between things or need mana dont be afraid to cast a lightning bolt / GOTQ (when healing is needed and AG is not going to be used or is on CD), either one of those cast gives about 2% mana back over that time period.

The Echo procs are also very important with your 4 peice, becuase you'll want to use HST about ever 12 - 16 seconds to maximize your uptime. Generally speaking each HST is 1.3 - 1.6 million healing per cast passively.

Third -

Use your CD's / Trinkets when needed, not overlapping with other healers CD's. This is something most new healers have a hard time with, its all about Raid efficiency, as well as your own personal efficiency. If you're using Velen's trinket when everyone is nearly full health (even though it procs 20% of over healing to closest target) Its still less efficient then when people are low and your chain heal happens to heal 2-3 people with some over healing.

Fourth -

Totem placement, make sure any of your totems are always in range of all the players, even if that means you have to move out to an awkward area to place the totem. 400k on 4 targets is a lot of healing every few seconds, you don't want to miss out of that for your own healing, as well as those players health bars.

The class itself is very simple theory, but very complex to play at a very high level. The nice part is the class is very versatile in it can be large burst realign for a raid, or heal a tank and provides some of the best Raid CD's in the game. At the end of the day if you did your roll, and the boss dies you did a good job, but there are always things to do better.

Wait, I can run Echo over CBT with my 4 piece and it is a viable build?

[Guran]

Wait, I can run Echo over CBT with my 4 piece and it is a viable build?

You certainly can.
I do tend to favor Undulation over Torrent for raids, but I do have the bracers for CH-HS spam where needed. (Torrent is good with legendary belt in 5mans)
Echo provides extra Riptide when you can't Chain Heal as much, on top of the nearly permanent HST uptime, so it'll help with more consistent healing.

That build provides me a lot of flexibility in raids, because I have strong Chain Heals for constant AoE, an extra healing CD in AG and I can still get out good single target healing with Undulation & Echo throwing in Riptides & HST enough to get TW on most of the heals.

I would eventually drop the Haste you have, but right now, the amount of increase in Intellect you can get from some drops with higher ilvl should still be better.
I tend to aim at around 100% Mastery and rest crit, with Versatility just above Haste. (I also do Mythic+ runs, where I need Haste even less, because of Riptide CD)

[Pixlol]

While I completely agree with most of what you're saying I think this reasoning is somewhat flawed. If you look at the hps done then a well played cloudburst is simply the hps stronger talent in a chainheal heavy build, even and especially on sustained damage. That being said, it is not very far ahead making echo a solid choice nonetheless. Echo is also a lot simpler to maximize, making it a better choice for beginners overall.
Having the legendary gloves and 4piece may influence that somehwat as hst gets a lot stronger.

Mathematically true, but you can't sustain cloudburst totems effectiveness over a 15 minute fight like gul'dan, you can barely manage it over a 5 minute Mythic Krosus kill while getting fed 1-2 innervates and having a ret paladins wisdom

[PraisCthulhu]

You certainly can.
I do tend to favor Undulation over Torrent for raids, but I do have the bracers for CH-HS spam where needed. (Torrent is good with legendary belt in 5mans)
Echo provides extra Riptide when you can't Chain Heal as much, on top of the nearly permanent HST uptime, so it'll help with more consistent healing.

That build provides me a lot of flexibility in raids, because I have strong Chain Heals for constant AoE, an extra healing CD in AG and I can still get out good single target healing with Undulation & Echo throwing in Riptides & HST enough to get TW on most of the heals.

I would eventually drop the Haste you have, but right now, the amount of increase in Intellect you can get from some drops with higher ilvl should still be better.
I tend to aim at around 100% Mastery and rest crit, with Versatility just above Haste. (I also do Mythic+ runs, where I need Haste even less, because of Riptide CD)

I completely agree with needing to dump haste. The only reason I ended up with so much was because the toon was new at the start of NH, so I was replacing 840 and 850 pieces with 875, 880, or 890 pieces. At that point the int gains were so huge that the secondaries were basically irrelevant. Now that I'm a respectable ilvl I am working on getting gear with better secondaries.

[PraisCthulhu]

I'm not trying to hijack this thread. However, this is the first thread I've seen where people are actually helping a new R-Shaman, and I'm one of those, too. I'm rerolling from a Rogue I've played since TBC. I've healed before extensively, but as a Paladin in Wrath. I hope OP doesn't mind if I ask a couple questions.

-I recently obtained Jonat's Chain Heal ring, and I'm 881. I perform fine, but I know I'm not playing Shaman to its fullest. Is it a waste to Chain Heal without stacking the legendary ring up to 5 stacks? It feels bad, like I'm mishandling the buff.

-Is there a set of talents that are best with this ring? Currently using both Deluge and High Tide. Felt like they'd be smart ideas when I'm pushing out 50% buffed CHs.

My armory: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...Resteau/simple

Any input is valuable. I'm having fun with the class, but I feel way out of my element. (No pun intended.) I plan to heal high level M+ and Heroic raid.

I've not got the ring so I haven't looked *too* much at what play style changes you should make, but I can comment on my opinion of using the leggo ring.

So, If there are 4-5 people who need healed and CH would be the most efficient way to heal them, I would personally CH even if I didn't have full stacks. It really just depends on the situation. Are these 4-5 people going to be in danger of dying within the next 8-10 seconds? If yes, start with the chain heal to remove that danger. If no, cast your 2-3 HW/HS to get your stacks then hit them with the CH. It really just depends on the fight and what mechanics are coming up. If they are sitting at 20% because they were too close to an orb on Krosus and there is a slam coming up, don't worry about building stacks, just start CH. If they are sitting at 60% in the same situation, then HW/HS so that you have a stronger CH on tap for after the slam.

Obviously getting full stacks will be better for your HPS, but HPS isn't the number one metric you should be shooting for with healing, particularly on a R Shaman. Our primary job is to keep members of the raid from dying. It may give you more HPS to cast an AoE heal on the 6 DPS sitting at 80% on your right than to cast a ST heal on the 10% health DPS to your left, but healing the 10% health DPS is the correct choice almost always.

[PraisCthulhu]

Thanks for your input! As the only healer I've played is Paladin, keeping groups of people alive is a foreign concept! I'm getting better at it, though.

No problem.

Keeping people alive is basically what we do. We are relatively inefficient at topping people off but relatively efficient at bringing them out of the "danger zone". I heal with a Resto druid and 1-2 H Priest (how many we run depends on group size that night). If someone is over 75% health, I basically don't bother healing them because the Druid and Priests can do it more quickly for less mana (unless the entire raid is over that, then I do heal them). I focus on healing the lowest health targets.

About your talents:

High tide is great if you're doing a CH focused build. Deluge on the other hand is, IMO, highly situational. On Triliax for example, you're rarely going to have large numbers of people in your healing rain during high damage moments and, unless you run Echo and/or have the riptide belt, you're not going to have more than 1-2 riptides running. So Deluge loses a lot of its value on that fight. My personal preference on that tier is Ancestral Guidance. It feeds Cloudburst Totem, its useful on every fight, and it doesn't require other people to stand in the right spot for me to use it. Crashing Waves and Deluge are much more situational.

High Tide is a good talent, especially with the ring. However, don't overlook Ascendance in situations where you need another raid healing CD. When combined with Cloudburst Totem, Ascendance can provide *excellent* burst healing to your whole raid. Its a great combo for the end of Krosus for example, where you can't put much distance between the targeted player and the raid when he throws the ball, so the whole raid is going to go low at a predictable time.

[Radianshot]

I find that you're still fairly undergeared since it's a fairly new 110 still. There's a few things to note about your gear.
Seeing that you are looking to be chain heal spamming with some CDs, you're going to want 3x Queen Ascendant's Relics. At the moment you're using: 1 Floodwaters, 1 Tidal Chains, 1 Pull of the Sea.
Secondly, your crit is extremely low, at just 15.69% (from what i'm looking at now), you're way below the required amount. Of course having 3x Floodwaters can fix this a little but it won't be too great. I suggest you go for 30 - 40% crit depending on how often you're planning to press chain heal.
As for your traits, it looks to be 32 at the moment, so you'll be way lacking compared to other healers for the moment. Get 35 ASAP and slowly work on it from there.
With your current gear, Vers and Haste seems a little abnormally high for a chain heal build. Try to lose more of each and get more Crit/Mastery instead.

Now for the playstyle opinion that might conflict with some others:
I personally do not encourage pressing chain heal 24/7 to heal everything. In my heal comp we lack a spot-healer so I run 2x tidal chains to HS/Riptide top people. I cast chain heal a fair bit too since its empowered with Unleash Life + Jonats, resulting in huge numbers when the aoe-damage comes. Knowing your fight well and when the damage is coming helps make up for lack of haste, which you might want to keep some of if you're unable to memorize the encounter, to respond a little faster.
EotE Is a good talent, but it may not be your playstyle if you're only going to press chain heal. I use it, and I plan to finish 4set soon too. Cloudburst pulls better if your raid is taking excessive damage (like in mythic) and the fight isn't being overhealed. For example, if pushing stacks on chromatic anomaly, it'll probably be something like Healing Rain > Cloudburst > Chain heal x3/4 > Cloudburst explode.
Earthern Shield Totem is the standard choice, but in progression fights with burst damage, go for Ancestral Protection instead. If your raid has a few undergeared / undertraited people with way less health, AG may help you keep them alive too (unlikely to be popular as you have to keep targeting them)
Chain heal build does go well with Ancestral Guidance, but should you decide to play some tidal chains / get 4set, go for crashing waves. It'll make a world of difference when you starting HW'ing people.

[Deleted]

Mathematically true, but you can't sustain cloudburst totems effectiveness over a 15 minute fight like gul'dan, you can barely manage it over a 5 minute Mythic Krosus kill while getting fed 1-2 innervates and having a ret paladins wisdom

The thing is for a sustained damage pattern you need an amount x of healing for any given fight. The rotational difference would come to 1 cloudburst every 30 seconds compared to 2-3 riptides every 30 seconds you can cast more with echo. So you basically need 1-2 more free gcds every 30 seconds. You either replace one chainheal, which means you save some mana but do lower your amount x of healing in that period, or you replace two healing waves which means you increase your healing x and save some mana some miniscule amount of mana(Around 1% base mana, which gets lowered if you factor in resurgence). Manawise cloudburst and riptide are nearly equal, so nearly no difference there.
In the first case you need to contend not only against the cloudburst healing but also against some of your chainheal healing to achieve some more longevity. Quite frankly if you are doing a hps so low that you can compete against a chainheal and your average cloudburst (and potential guidance gains) with 2-3 riptides, then you would be doing shit hps. As you are M 9/10 I assume you are good, so this is not an option.
In the second case you win 2-3 times the healing difference between a riptide and a healing wave. In my case that's around 2-3*~200-300k healing. So if you manage to do around a mio healing with your cloudburst, which you will if you are not terrible, cloudburst will do more healing. Of course your mana will last a little while longer gaining 1% base mana - resurgence, which will amount to somthing like 2-3k mana every 30 seconds. In a 15 min fight that amounts to about one chainheal cast more you can push out at the end.
You also get around 0.1-0.3 hsts more because of the 4pc every 30 seconds, this would mean in case two your cloudburst would need need to do ~1.2-1.4 mio healing.

Of course this assumes perfect usage of cloudburst, perfectly using the 4pc without echo, perfectly gaming around movement, perfectly gaming around tidal waves stacks and a really even curve of incoming damage on the whole raid.
More single targeted damage (tanks, single players with debuffs(e.g. spellblade), people who fail voids etc.) as well as frequent movement may all lead to echo being the etter choice.
All in all it is far easier to do the same hps or even more with echo, especially if you are a beginner but also for seasoned players.
So please cite any of the numerous reasons why one would/could/should use echo, but a sustained damage pattern on the whole raid and/or fight length are not among them.

[Pixlol]

All in all it is far easier to do the same hps or even more with echo, especially if you are a beginner but also for seasoned players.
So please cite any of the numerous reasons why one would/could/should use echo, but a sustained damage pattern on the whole raid and/or fight length are not among them.

First I'll list a few reasons to choose echo over CBT, then explain some other reasoning, outside of paper math, that makes more sense.

On a shaman only level, you have account for all the benefits that are brought to the table for echo vs cloud burst. One important factor is that larger up time on HST means 6% flat less damage taken, at the end of the day over a 10 minute fight if you can negate an additional 6% damage ON YOURSELF, you'll make up the difference from any additional healing that CBT would bring.

Second, continuing with things only in your control, cloud burst totems effectiveness scales based on what you put in, it puts out. This isn't about the healing a few riptides does bringing in an extra HST, its the mana used to make CBT beneficially better than dropping a HST and letting it passively heal.

Lets assume during that 30 second period between HST and CBT you play perfectly (which is really easy to do) and maximize your GCD's, you first use HST and after 15 seconds you drop CBT, during cloud burst totem your first three heals are Chain heal (assuming you already had Queens ascendants buff) which is 4.5 seconds with 2 seconds of GCD, at this point you're now going to drop a healing rain on the melee, cast AG, and then use 3-4 more chain heals with AG boost clipping your CBT to double dip with AG boost from CBT. Cloud burst totem will take in all this healing that was done and now BAM be super effective, however you just dumped 30% + of your mana pool in a 15 second window to make a totem more useful, and you can't get that efficiency now for another 110 Seconds (becuase of AG's 2 minute CD)

You're comparing this to a few extra riptides in that 30 second window and maybe 9-12 seconds less on a HST in that same time period, however because you get 10% more healing from 2 pc for every LHW / AG, having that riptide proc makes it more useful. Does it do more healing than CBT, no it does not, but this isn't about blowing your load and being the highest on the healing meters because you're padding, its about having mana to survive a 15 minute fight purely on your control. This means you're 100% in charge of your mana, you don't have a paladin giving you wisdom, or druids feeding you innervates, its you, yourself and whatever pots / passive waiting ect... you can do to make yourself last that long.

lastly, continuing on benefits for yourself, is you can drop an extra HST and not having to do anything but lightning bolt to get mana back during a lul in a fight and it will always be greater than CBT during any lull period of a fight, because its statically going to do 1.1 - 1.3 million healing. CBT can boomerang and do 3 million on cast and 300k the next. Not to mention, you do a little bit more damage by having that extra lava burst (which this is often overlooked, but a million extra damage is the difference between a faster push or not on a lot of these fights)

Now lets take a step back and looking at the healing environment as a whole, lets talk about just phase one of a fight like mythic gul'dan. The guild that i'm currently playing with is running one holy paladin, one resto druid and two resto shamans. Obviously this isn't the most ideal comp for this fight, but we have to make due with what we have.

Taking the fact out that you have a paladin that provides a lot of static healing, and a resto druid who's class is all about passive healing over time, you have to play to those classes strengths, not just your own. What I mean by this, is if there are parts in the fight where no one is taking damage for 10 seconds and rejuvenation ticks will be more beneficial, and you know as a healer that you can throw out a few lightning bolts because the druids passive healing will top the raid over 10 seconds then you damn well better be shooting lightning bolts out of your hand while rip tiding the tanks (or in my specific case someone that takes a lot of damage and giving them 10% more health (ie boomkin, hunters ect..))

over the course of the first 5-6 minutes of the fight, ever healer is using Cool downs to help top the raid off, or substitute a lot of large healing. you have tranq, two healing tide totems, two AG's, 1 paladin sac and 1 pally wings. Using CBT, you have to be healing in order to make it more effective, when a shaman is using HTT, a top end player knows the limits of the ability and knows that i'll heal until all the raid is at 1 million damage needed heal and I'll let CD top the raid off while I throw lightning bolts. Same can be said with pretty much any other healer CD that is being used.

I hate to use the set it and forget mentality, but that is exactly what HST allows resto shamans to do, we can set it down during these burst, have other players in the raid do everything they can with a CD and just know that tranq is going to do 20 million healing at this point, or HTT will do 20 million, or paladins sac'ing LOL whole raids topped off 40 million healing win button. And the benefit that echo brings to the table (on a fight like gul'dan) in phase two when we have 3-4 people getting 9 souls and getting trucked having riptide rolling on those players is far greater than anything that CBT can do.

Yes, resto shaman as a class, they can do a crap ton of healing and are overall an amazing class and bring a lot to the table, but a greedy healer is not a good healer. Being top on the meters, in healing perspective, doesn't mean that you're the best healer in the world, and that's a misconception that a lot of the player base in general has. Lowest on the healing meters, your garbage, even though your 3 minutes into a fight and the druids already tranq'd twice and the holy paladin sac was the first large CD. You're playing your class, for whats needed in your comp, and you need to play it to that comps strengths.

Its not about numbers, just because I can sustain 1+ million HPS on a fight, doesn't mean that I need to do it all the time. Its all about playing smarter as a player, and a large portion of that is knowing the limits of the other healers you're playing with and there strength and weaknesses, both as a player and as a class. So in a nutshell, that's why echo is better FOR ME because that what works for everything, not just myself. Not to say that CBT is bad, I personally used it through out all of EN, but Mythic Night Hold, better gear, 2 pc 4 pc and playing with different healer comp has made echo a preferred build,for not only myself, but a lot of other top shamans in the community.

[Deleted]

On a shaman only level, you have account for all the benefits that are brought to the table for echo vs cloud burst. One important factor is that larger up time on HST means 6% flat less damage taken, at the end of the day over a 10 minute fight if you can negate an additional 6% damage ON YOURSELF, you'll make up the difference from any additional healing that CBT would bring.

Second, continuing with things only in your control, cloud burst totems effectiveness scales based on what you put in, it puts out. This isn't about the healing a few riptides does bringing in an extra HST, its the mana used to make CBT beneficially better than dropping a HST and letting it passively heal.

Lets assume during that 30 second period between HST and CBT you play perfectly (which is really easy to do) and maximize your GCD's, you first use HST and after 15 seconds you drop CBT, during cloud burst totem your first three heals are Chain heal (assuming you already had Queens ascendants buff) which is 4.5 seconds with 2 seconds of GCD, at this point you're now going to drop a healing rain on the melee, cast AG, and then use 3-4 more chain heals with AG boost clipping your CBT to double dip with AG boost from CBT. Cloud burst totem will take in all this healing that was done and now BAM be super effective, however you just dumped 30% + of your mana pool in a 15 second window to make a totem more useful, and you can't get that efficiency now for another 110 Seconds (becuase of AG's 2 minute CD)

1. How much more cd reduction do you think you are getting with echo? With a non normal echo rotation you would cast a riptide every ~7-8s meaning you get about a 21s cd hst. With echo you can at the very best get a riptide every 5 seconds which would bring the hst cd to about 18 s cooldown. Both do not use chainheal at all in that scenario. Using is easier so let's assume the first person only casts hst every 23s while the second person really uses those 18s cd. That means in a 15min fight you would have ~39 hsts vs. ~50 hst. The uptime of the 10% dmg reduction would be 43% against 55% or 4.3% dmg reduction against 5.55%...where you get those "6% less damage taken" is a mistery. If the echo person NEVER clips his dmg reduction that is 1.25% less damage taken.
2. The thing with cloudburst is, you do not have to maximize every single one of them by wasting your mana. You now the ~1-1.5 mio average cloudburst i talked about? That comes done to 400k hps or 6 mio healing done during that 15 second window including overheal. If you can throw down a hr that's ~2-2.3 mio alone. You do not need guidance for that and neither do you need to spam chainheal excessively.
3. Remember how you were saying something about "sustained damage". Which i specifically assumed you were actually talking about. As in the raid takes damage at really frequent intervalls or constantly? You then proceed to talk about a completely different damage pattern in your post. You are talking about lull periods in fights. You are talking about specifc people getting trucked. That is not sustained raid damage. If you can let the raid be topped of by your druid hots then that is not sustained damage or really really low damage. Either you have enough sustained damage, so you actually need do do x hps or you have low damage income which of course means you do not need the hps strongest talent which robs you of other convienences.
4. You actually went ahead and listed a lot of the reasons why one could/should/would use echo. They are also right or mostly right and depending on heal comp and fight it makes a lot of sense to spec echo, just as you are saying. But then please refer to your first post where you advised to learn echo. Tt was implied that you need echo for most fights anyway because they are sustained damage. You then proceeded to say in your next post that you can barely keep up cloudburst in a 5 min fight. You do not take echo because of massive mana gains or better anything like that. According to your reason you take echo because of lack of needing to heal during many periods of a fight and additional st damage on eye targets. That still does not make it more sustainable than cloudburst, as you would simply charge your cloudburst less or don't cast it at all during those periods.
Of course if you simply do not need the hps cloudburst offers it makes no sense to spec it. That does however not contradict any of my claims that cloudburst is the hps better alternative in a sustained raid damage scenario.

[Dwyrfa]

For CBT vs EotE, it honestly mostly depends on your preference and maybe on your legendaries.

I honestly love how you can make CBT seem like a big cooldown heal when you combo it with AG + 5 stacks Jonat + GotQ (+ Root Pants, they make it even better). All the extra healing that go into the leftover duration of CBT can be done with just a few more chain heals/riptide + HW or HS, so you don't spend an absurd amount of mana (Unless you really need instantly to get the raid full and nobody has their heal cds up, what could happen if the heal cds are not timed well tho...). Even without AG and just with 5 stack Jonat and GotQ, you get a lot of healing stocked into CBT and it is considerably cheap in mana.

I love EotE when I need more spot healing and less AoE wise healing. I also feel like I use more mana and go faster oom with EotE because I try hard to optimize Tidal Wave procs with mostly HW (HS if needed) + 5 stack Jonat. EotE syncs well if you have the Gloves +4p because of the nice uptime of HST that they give.

I had a chance to play with Gloves Legendary + Jonat (or Prydaz) (EotE + 4p) and with Jonat + Root Pants (CBT), and i honestly better liked and more enjoyed Jonat + Root Pants (CBT) playstyle.

Just choose the style you better like, you won't go wrong with either.