[RET] Haste haste haste...

[Wutangrza]

In an expansion where the design is so gawdawfull and our stats are so close together I would go with haste every hour every day. Even if the output would be the same (or even a few % worse) I would go with haste. Makes things easier , don't have to feel like a severed chimp when changing speccs for encounters (greater judge vs zeal vs TFoJ, FV vs Conc vs ES, crusade ramp up, rppm trinkets and proccs). Everything u go with is like : ride the wave duuuuuuude

Pretty sure everyone uses TFoJ, DH, FV for every single encounter.

[iddqd]

Zeal, DH, Cons every encounter for me (but i only play m+) ^^

[Wutangrza]

Zeal, DH, Cons every encounter for me (but i only play m+) ^^

It's not bad for M+, but once you get the 4 set, TFoJ is irreplaceable.

[Reith]

It's not bad for M+, but once you get the 4 set, TFoJ is irreplaceable.

But doesn't that make the ramp up for Crusade potentially slower? And taking Blade of Wrath can make you practically GCD locked in combination with that, and Blade of Justice doesn't give the bonus for FoJ. Seems like a lot of conflicting things going on there?

[iddqd]

It's not bad for M+, but once you get the 4 set, TFoJ is irreplaceable.

Sadly, i will never ever get a single T19 item

[Wutangrza]

But doesn't that make the ramp up for Crusade potentially slower? And taking Blade of Wrath can make you practically GCD locked in combination with that, and Blade of Justice doesn't give the bonus for FoJ. Seems like a lot of conflicting things going on there?

There aren't really any fights where BoW is better than DH. If you're using TFoJ, BoW (on a complete patchwerk fight) is like ~7k DPS higher. If you hit an add at all during the course of a fight, DH will do more damage.

Check out the Mythic top parses for every single encounter. Ret uses FV + TFoJ + DH every fight.

[Sinew]

It's not bad for M+, but once you get the 4 set, TFoJ is irreplaceable.

Zeal is still simming higher for me at 909 ilvl with 4 pc, its been simming higher since 7.1.5 for me regardless of fight length, and I've gone through many different gear sets. One thing that's remained the same is I've been using belt+ring

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There aren't really any fights where BoW is better than DH. If you're using TFoJ, BoW (on a complete patchwerk fight) is like ~7k DPS higher. If you hit an add at all during the course of a fight, DH will do more damage.

Check out the Mythic top parses for every single encounter. Ret uses FV + TFoJ + DH every fight.

It makes sense that dh provides higher logs, but I don't really see the benefit to using it on mythic tich or augur for example, unless you are in dire need of bat dmg or dmg on those little adds in the last phase of augur, you're losing a lot of important boss damage throughout the fight. Perhaps a lot of damage is stretching it, but it still seems like damage that shouldn't be lost.

[Reith]

Zeal is still simming higher for me at 909 ilvl with 4 pc, its been simming higher since 7.1.5 for me regardless of fight length, and I've gone through many different gear sets. One thing that's remained the same is I've been using belt+ring

I've always used Zeal myself but I haven't done that much raiding so far, so I don't have any tier pieces. Greater Judgment will see less use than it does now because it provides no more utility for spreading Judgment, which it really wasn't great with anyway only being 4 targets instead of 2. The only way it will see more use is if they change it or buff Judgment.

It makes sense that dh provides higher logs, but I don't really see the benefit to using it on mythic tich or augur for example, unless you are in dire need of bat dmg or dmg on those little adds in the last phase of augur, you're losing a lot of important boss damage throughout the fight. Perhaps a lot of damage is stretching it, but it still seems like damage that shouldn't be lost.

This is going to be the debate for 7.2 ret. Our AOE is getting justifiably buffed, but the changes and additions favor boss damage more, so it really depends what your raid needs you to do. Blade of Wrath is the best all-around talent pick with T20 in 7.2, but I can see Divine Hammer being useful in some cases, it just depends what the bosses are like.

[Wutangrza]

Zeal is still simming higher for me at 909 ilvl with 4 pc, its been simming higher since 7.1.5 for me regardless of fight length, and I've gone through many different gear sets. One thing that's remained the same is I've been using belt+ring

Are you using DH or BoW? With DH, if you combine it with Zeal, you'll have too many open globals so it'll fall behind ST. Compare TFoJ with DH to Zeal with BoW and I bet they'll be pretty close (I think for me it's like ~7k difference pure ST, which means even if I cleave something for just a few seconds, TFoJ+DH will win out, plus it feels nicer to have a 2s CD CS)

[Talvindius]

You prioritize haste with the cloak until 31% because thats the breakpoint that allows for a 4th spender during the judgement window. You can offset this with lucky procs from BoJ/ Fires of Justice and the 4 set but the haste breakpoint makes it consistent.

Strength > Haste > vers=crit> mastery. Ilvl is king in NH so just take ilvl 1st then try to get haste if you have the cloak. It's that simple.

[Sinew]

Are you using DH or BoW? With DH, if you combine it with Zeal, you'll have too many open globals so it'll fall behind ST. Compare TFoJ with DH to Zeal with BoW and I bet they'll be pretty close (I think for me it's like ~7k difference pure ST, which means even if I cleave something for just a few seconds, TFoJ+DH will win out, plus it feels nicer to have a 2s CD CS)

Zeal + dh still sims higher for me than tfoj + dh, on single and multi target. Zeal is better than tfoj and greater judgement for me with any other talents in every situation in NH

[Reith]

Zeal + dh still sims higher for me than tfoj + dh, on single and multi target. Zeal is better than tfoj and greater judgement for me with any other talents in every situation in NH

I'm kinda feeling lost right now because my actual dps tests contradict my simulationcraft results in odd ways, like my Judgment damage being a much higher portion of my damage in real tests than the sims.

[Wutangrza]

Zeal + dh still sims higher for me than tfoj + dh, on single and multi target. Zeal is better than tfoj and greater judgement for me with any other talents in every situation in NH

Curious how much haste you have for Zeal to beat out TFoJ.

For me with 4 pc and 23% haste, it's not even close ST:

TFoJ + DH: 675128
Zeal + DH: 638439.6

[Bonham123]

I'm kinda feeling lost right now because my actual dps tests contradict my simulationcraft results in odd ways, like my Judgment damage being a much higher portion of my damage in real tests than the sims.

with what talent and in what kind of fight?

And by "much higher portion" how much do you mean?

[Deleted]

Really love the new RET. It is amazing to play. Hope they never change it. I even made a thread on the official Blizzard forums that they should keep it the way it is throughout LEGION and the next expansion aswell

[oraz4000]

Really love the new RET. It is amazing to play. Hope they never change it. I even made a thread on the official Blizzard forums that they should keep it the way it is throughout LEGION and the next expansion aswell

Please delete that thread.

[Deleted]

Please delete that thread.

Sorry can't do. I plan on playing RET for a bit longer. Finally got cape, shoulders and belt!

[Reith]

with what talent and in what kind of fight?

And by "much higher portion" how much do you mean?

Since I have a pretty low amount of haste I'm using TFoJ and BoW, and even accounting for shield and old war, my judgment damage overall is 6% higher (13.5% vs 7.7%) on a training dummy vs my patchwerk sim, which is a huge amount and crits were about average.

[Ohdee]

Curious how much haste you have for Zeal to beat out TFoJ.

For me with 4 pc and 23% haste, it's not even close ST:

TFoJ + DH: 675128
Zeal + DH: 638439.6

I have 4pc and 19.73% haste. For legendaries I'm using Liandrin's Fury (which gives a small boost to Zeal) and Prydaz (my other 3 legendaries are the helm, boots and bracers I'm unlucky...) so no cloak (which will always give a large boost to TFoJ over Zeal). On 300 second Patchwerk:
TFoJ + DH: 646426
Zeal + DH: 632486

However with BoW it's:
TfoJ + BoW: 646009
Zeal + BoW: 651631

So technically Zeal + BoW is the highest single target combo for me. On Mythic the closest thing to single target are Krosus, Star Auger, Botanist and Trilliax but all of those have just enough AoE that BoW isn't worth using so TFoJ + DH is probably the best combo on those fights. On heroic Trilliax is single target and Krosus might as well be so Zeal + BoW is the best combo for those with my gear I think.

The other fights are a different story. For 300 second Hectic add cleave:

TFoJ + DH: 1178175
Zeal + DH: 1207340

I'm not sure how many adds and how frequently they spawn in that sim, so I'm unsure of how that corresponds to the fights in Nighthold. Anything more than 3 adds at a time will reduce the effectiveness of Zeal, though how many need to spawn before the higher holy power generation of TFoJ ovetakes the much higher CS damage I'm not sure about. Anytime you are purely single target will also reduce Zeals effectiveness. You can't really tell by looking at the top sims either since they all are using the cloak which gives a huge boost to TFoJ and I'm using the ring which gives a small boost Zeal. Convergence of fate (which I don't have yet) probably changes the values around a bit too.