54% Overheal - Resto Problems

[Tiberria]

Think twice about your own words my friend. You must predict the fight, the fails, the happening, everything. Thats a healers duty. And also u must predict how you heal to get to 0% Mana when the Boss dies. This is our job. When you are progression thats no other story. You must then predict how long it will take your team to get him down and at this point you must be at 0% Mana. There is nothing to discuss here really. Ofc this is a learning progress and will not be correct everytime. But you will be getting better at this with every try ofc.

Your point is only valid if you want to argue that the raid is going to execute at the same level and take the same amount of damage every attempt. I can assure you, if you actually do Mythic progression, it's not uncommon to see 20% variances in the amount of raid damage taken across attempts of the same length. Maybe someone failed at a raid damaging mechanic (let's say they blew up a bomb next to the raid on Anomaly, or blew up a brand when the strat was not to blow them up on Tich). Maybe people are better at avoiding avoidable damage one attempt vs the next.

Let's say the raid will take an average of 10 billion damage on a kill, but the actual range can be 8 billion to 12 billion. You ideally want to plan your mana around having enough longevity/throughput to heal at the 12 billion damage taken level, not the 10 billion average or god forbid the 8 billion best case. If you waste extra mana and generate unnecessary overheal because you want to maximize your HPS percentile/ranking around the 8 billion best case, you are likely to be OOM the last 25%+ of the fight, which is likely to cause a wipe, which is at least partially on YOU being more concerned with padding than actually successfully downing the fight. If you play conservatively to have the ability to respond to that 12 billion edge case or close to it, you're going to end up with some excess mana at the end of the fight, and that absolutely is not poor play - it's being intelligent and understanding the healing role as opposed to being an immature healer that thinks HPS = DPS. You aren't necessarily going to be able to predict who is going to fail a mechanic and "bomb" the raid 3 minutes from now; you need to predict an acceptable range of action, and have the needed leverage to expand longevity and throughput to respond to unpredictable events - at least if the alternative is wasting mana to pad on non critical healing.

Like I said, go balls to the wall on deep farm fights (which I would hope any heroic fight would be by this point) if you are obsessed with ranking numbers, but it's not something that is relevant or all that indicative of healer skill on stuff that isn't trivialized.

[lairpie]

It just comes down to playing the odds and knowing your raid group. Is it more likely that you spamming fairly gratuitous hots 1/2 way through the fight saves someone, or more likely that one of the other healers dies late in the fight w/o a rez and that extra 20% mana that you might have wasted is instead desperately needed to fill that gap? Maybe your damage isn't very useful, but that's the same as a damager saying that they wouldnt' really want to have a bunch of extra free spells, and I don't think you'll find a lot of that. Damage from a healer is just as useful as damage from a damager, it's about the raid as a whole. Now, obviously, keeping even a fairly terrible dps alive will contribute more damage than you damaging, but that argument is a false-dichotomy when there's a lot of room to weave in some damage at times where it doesn't risk anyone's death. Also, the real best use of wrath is giving you something to occupy your fingers to keep you from going oom because you obsessively feel the need to be casting something when sometimes no heals need to be cast.

[Fayenoor]

It just comes down to playing the odds and knowing your raid group. Is it more likely that you spamming fairly gratuitous hots 1/2 way through the fight saves someone, or more likely that one of the other healers dies late in the fight w/o a rez and that extra 20% mana that you might have wasted is instead desperately needed to fill that gap? Maybe your damage isn't very useful, but that's the same as a damager saying that they wouldnt' really want to have a bunch of extra free spells, and I don't think you'll find a lot of that. Damage from a healer is just as useful as damage from a damager, it's about the raid as a whole. Now, obviously, keeping even a fairly terrible dps alive will contribute more damage than you damaging, but that argument is a false-dichotomy when there's a lot of room to weave in some damage at times where it doesn't risk anyone's death. Also, the real best use of wrath is giving you something to occupy your fingers to keep you from going oom because you obsessively feel the need to be casting something when sometimes no heals need to be cast.

But then how much failure do you want to plan your redundancy on for though? I suppose that's something for the healing team to gauge based on the relative skill of the individuals that make up the raid. So, conserving for the worse case scenario - as in your example of a late fight healer death with no rez available. How many healer deaths do you plan for in that scenario? With a 4-person healing team, one dead healer, you can probably cover for; 2 dead healers you probably wipe unless boss is really close to dying. I understand that no first kill is perfect. Generally you will always have one or more raid member dead unless it is one of those rare fights where the entire raid needs to be alive for any remote chance of a kill.

Regarding the suggestion of a healer having to DPS during downtimes because the nature of the encounter is such that no high heals are required till the last 30%. I agree that it is never about individual DPS, but collective DPS as a raid. For a fight like Augur, for example, a resto druid DPS (even with Balance Affinity and going Moonkin form) will probably not make or break the fight. But the question is will the resto druid do more DPS on lower healing situations than say have the druid go gung ho heals to allow full-time Damage Dealers (DD) more leeway to ignore mechanics and optimize their own DPS. As in stand in fire and tunnel the boss harder and let the healers handle keep you up. If we are going to do so much overheals anyways, wouldnt it be better for the heals to be going somewhere meaningful than being wasted. Under those circumstances, wouldnt the collective increase in DPS from allowing the dedicated DD classes to ignore some mechanics far outperform the increase in DPS from the resto druid doing some DPS ?

TLDR--

Is DD DPS (with ignoring some mecahnics) and Resto fulltime healing >>>>>> DD DPS (with perfect mechanics execution) + Resto DPS ????

[huth]

Think twice about your own words my friend. You must predict the fight, the fails, the happening, everything. Thats a healers duty. And also u must predict how you heal to get to 0% Mana when the Boss dies. This is our job. When you are progression thats no other story. You must then predict how long it will take your team to get him down and at this point you must be at 0% Mana. There is nothing to discuss here really. Ofc this is a learning progress and will not be correct everytime. But you will be getting better at this with every try ofc.

If you end up at 0% on kill in the worst case, you won't end up at 0% on a normal try. You're asking for mutually exclusive results.

[clevin]

The 0% thing is a red herring to me. No one wants to wipe at 1% because you couldn't get off 1 or 2 last heals. If I end the fight with 5% mana or hell, even 20% that's fine. There's no shame in ending the fight with some mana -- you just don't want to end it with so much that you were effectively not needed.

Anyway, HPS is a shit way to judge healers. Sure, it can be used to call out a healer that's basically AFK or really bad, but aside from that the question is "did you win? Did the healers keep people up as best they could?" You did and they did? Great, move on.

[Dilemma90]

some of these response are stupid like "why do you care"


simply.. if t here is overhealing.. you are either...

1. healing way TOO Slow, and not Prehotting.
2. Have too many healers for the encounter.

The first one you can go more in depth but that's a rough statement. in terms of rotation ,talents, stats

In mythic i sit around 18-30% overheal.

anything over 30 in mythic is getting tad bit high.

50% in heroic is insane and means u can drop a full healer basically

[Deleted]

I guess thats more of an opinion thing or so. For me its a clear story: Each Manapoint is effective healing and going out of the fight with more then 0% Mana is just plain waste of healing. Ofc we are speaking from an ideal scenario, i also do not reach this goal very often. But i keep it in mind and it has helped me understanding my role as a healer better.

[Tiberria]

Each Manapoint is effective healing and going out of the fight with more then 0% Mana is just plain waste of healing.

From a practical perspective, this is only really the case if by leaving that mana on the table, you are letting people die that otherwise would not have died with more throughput being leveraged. If you're burning that extra mana on snipe healing people at 85% HP that don't need to be topped off immediately, you're most likely just sniping that healing from other members of your healing team, and from passive stuff that would have healed them more efficiently anyway (including our own Efflo and HOTs, etc.).

Healing is not like DPS where every bit of extra DPS you can squeeze out is valuable, because no matter how much you are doing, more raid DPS means faster kill times, less mechanics that you have to deal with, etc. Instead, healing is a zero sum game. You can only heal what damage is available to be healed, and the total healing throughput your healing team can put out can and does exceed the total damage taken. Unless excessively burning that extra mana to put you at 0% by the end of the fight is actively valuable in preventing deaths from happening, all you're doing is taking credit for that healing away from other healers in your raid. Sure, it's a "waste" in the respect of HPS rankings and percentiles, but it's not in terms of keeping people alive (the actual goal for healing - not HPS) and killing the boss. If you end a non-trivial boss kill with 20% mana, that doesn't necessarily mean you wasted anything, it just means that you had that extra capacity to push more throughput if more things went wrong during the boss fight, which means - increased odds of killing the boss. That's hardly a waste. Look, I'm not saying that HPS doesn't matter and that it's OK for one healer to be 30%+ above another healer; obviously a reasonable level of HPS is expected from every healer and to kill a boss. I'm saying that obsessively gaming it like you would game a DPS parse is often counterproductive and actually detrimental to the raid.

[Deleted]

Don't worry about overheal, you're a resto druid that's normal.
Mana issues, get Darkmoon Deck trinket, does wonders for mana on progress kills, then when your group gets better and quicker just switch it out for another throughput. Make sure your gear is properly optimised and stat weights are used for your type of healing.

[Saverem]

I would like some advice on converting some of my 54% overheals to active healing on fights like Heroic Augur (for example). We run 2/3/12. So we don't have too many healers.

My druid's name is Mixyzptlk. Armory - http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...zptlk/advanced

Logs are at:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...0&type=healing

Specifically


As shown in picture above, all my primary spells overheal by a lot.

Can't really avoid that, comes with being a HoT class. Your HoTs will be ticking and healing weather the target needs it or not...

Tranq with 58% overheals is a bit much though, I'd probably coordinate the big CD heals better with the other healers so they don't overlap. At least you don't have any MWs with Revival that would make your Tranq next to useless if they sniped you. (I know because I play a MW and I make our Resto Dru furious )


BTW I'm taking your numbers from OVERALL, not just Augur. Augur isn't really a good fight to test your healing. https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...2&difficulty=0