What is Unholy/necromancy?

[Calfredd]

Yeah that didnt really make sense to me either, i did wonder if the positions are supposed to have relevance or not considering light is right next to fel, which just seems flat out wrong

There are 6 forces in the chart so no matter what the forces' "neighbors" are it won't make sense if they are going to be exactly opposite of each other. If Titans and Burning Legion swapped, the Titans would be close to Death which also doesn't make sense. I think the only pairings that matter are the 2 exactly opposite of each other.

[Radaney]

Who gives a fuck about what the Chronicle establishes? It claims Hakkar is a spirit but then later on states that Hakkar has a spirit. A spirit has a spirit LOLS?

Because the Void is ultimately responsible for the place mortal creatures and undead are from, the Void's power (shadow magic) would be integral to (or a part of) undead - no excuses. no exceptions to the rule. Shadow magic is technically necromantic (of, from, or pertaining to, necromancy). If it isn't, it's still a blacker or darker magic than necromantic magic.

/dips out of thread

You know all the Loa have spirits right? Have you ever done anything troll related dungeon wise or zone wise? Nearly every single bit of troll content without fail in World of Warcraft has a troll harnessing the power of a Loa's Spirit in it, from Zul'drak to Zul'gurub to Zul'Aman to Throne of Thunder.

Loa's are spirits that have spirits.

It's spirits all the way down.

[blobbydan]

that's not confirmation, that's called AN opinion.

Fixed that for you.

[Raetary]

Why are the Titans closer to Shadow than the Burning Legion lol?

Those two need to swap places.

im pretty sure its just the style.

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OT: necromancy/undeath is a cosmic force opposing Life/spirit

[bloodmoth13]

There are 6 forces in the chart so no matter what the forces' "neighbors" are it won't make sense if they are going to be exactly opposite of each other. If Titans and Burning Legion swapped, the Titans would be close to Death which also doesn't make sense. I think the only pairings that matter are the 2 exactly opposite of each other.

Well it seems that the titans are sat next to the void instead, not sure if thats much better, i wonder if life and death should even be on the outter ring when they are already present in the inner ring...

though that does bring some thoughts into question... perhaps the titans were actually linked to the void before their demise, fel is closer to the light than arcane and in truth the titans had already fallen to the whispers of the void and sargeras was the only one to oppose them! in which case sargeras has already killed 5 or so dark titans and their foul arcane magic lol...

Yeah, you really cant take those positions too seriously, better to just focus on the opposites.

Personally though i find it weird that undeath is on the list, death and undeath are kind of opposites when you really think about it, i mean undeath is the undoing of death, i always though of undeath as a perverted version of life magic while true death would be an absolute version of death, in which case it death would be a very orderly form of power as it is a predictable law that nobody can escape while life is chaotic and unpredictable, even more so with undeath and fel relies on life to exist, but thats just me.

[Deleted]

Cause apparently the spheres associated with them need to sit in an opposite manner

[Friendlyimmolation]

You know all the Loa have spirits right? Have you ever done anything troll related dungeon wise or zone wise? Nearly every single bit of troll content without fail in World of Warcraft has a troll harnessing the power of a Loa's Spirit in it, from Zul'drak to Zul'gurub to Zul'Aman to Throne of Thunder.

Loa's are spirits that have spirits.

It's spirits all the way down.

Rainforest never actually comes here to debate, he believes what he believes and evidence doesn't matter.

[Raetary]

Who gives a fuck about what the Chronicle establishes?

statements like this are the reason why almost no one likes to discuss anything with you.

[Rend Blackhand]

Necromancy is liked to shadow magic similar to the void. In the same way as chi and life are distantly linked to holy light.

These things are all connected

[Kathranis]

The positions of the six cosmic forces don't really relate to their neighbors, only their opposites. The Titans and the Burning Legion both oppose the void lords, for example, but are opposite each other.

No matter how you arrange them, since there are only six and they have to sit across from their opposites, you'd always have at least two semi-opposing forcers neighboring each other. If you swapped the Legion and the Titans, the Titans would be next to the Undead and the Legion would be next to the Wild Gods.

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Necromancy is liked to shadow magic similar to the void. In the same way as chi and life are distantly linked to holy light.

These things are all connected

Right. Unholy is void, the opposite of holy (light), while necromancy/decay is more like the opposite of life-oriented shamanism or druidism.

It's likely that Ner'zhul's shamanic prowess had an influence on his later powers as a necromancer, for example.

[Gamer8585]

Yeah that didnt really make sense to me either, i did wonder if the positions are supposed to have relevance or not considering light is right next to fel, which just seems flat out wrong

Conjecture: Placement of the primordial forces (Light, Void, Life, Death, Order, Disorder) has Energetic/Entropic balance on the Y axis, and Order/Chaos on its X Axis.
For example:
Life is "energetic" due to it being near the top, but also Ordered due to being on the left side.
Death is "entropic" due to it being on the bottom, but also Chaotic due to it being on the right side.

[Evangeliste]

What intrigues me about the picture shown... Is what they put in it. Am I being too picky that a titan has a skull pauldron which by most designs is synonymous with being more on the 'evil' side? And in undead there's potentially a spirit healer too... Seems quite off to me.

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Who gives a fuck about what the Chronicle establishes?

That's like saying why the fuck should have Lucas wrote a script for Star Wars at all?

[Deleted]

Unholy magic is essentially shadow magic. Some confuse it with fel or chaos magic, but that's not right, Shadow is not chaotic, Shadow is the mirror of Light.

[Cheapnecrolyte]

statements like this are the reason why almost no one likes to discuss anything with you.

Oh, I really feel sad. *sarcasm*

Rainforest never actually comes here to debate

1) Please tell me where MMO-Champion establishes that the story forum is solely for debating.

2) I don't come here to debate because I want agreement.

3) There isn't anything to debate here to me. The CHRONICLE establishes that the physical universe and the undead ultimately exist because of Light and Void - not me. These fundamental forces would obviously be worked into everything in the physical universe, including undead. As such, necrotic magic (the magic of the dead) is technically shadow magic and you're just some nut who'd infer that evidence doesn't matter to me based on the faulty belief that I'm not using Blizzard's own information to prove that I'm technically correct.

All necrotic magic is shadow magic, not all shadow magic is necrotic.

[Aucald]

All necrotic magic is shadow magic, not all shadow magic is necrotic.

"Necrotic" in an unqualified descriptor, however. The Scourge are prototypical undead animated by Shadow and Void type magic, that's beyond contesting. But you also have instances where the Botani, for example, have zombified corpses and returned them to unlife by parasitic infection with invasive Nature magic. You could argue that these shambling husks aren't technically "zombies" in the way a Scourge ghoul or skeleton is - but they meet the definition of a previously dead and inanimate corpse shuffling around and attacking the living. You've also got a case where a Tauren Shaman, Shotoa, was brought into a curious state of undeath by Ragnaros on the occasion of his death by making him a partial fire elemental.

Necromancy, the typical method by which undead are created, is almost universally Shadow magic. But undead beings in WoW can arise from other sources, even from magical essences more typically aligned with "good."

[vondevon]

Conjecture: Placement of the primordial forces (Light, Void, Life, Death, Order, Disorder) has Energetic/Entropic balance on the Y axis, and Order/Chaos on its X Axis.
For example:
Life is "energetic" due to it being near the top, but also Ordered due to being on the left side.
Death is "entropic" due to it being on the bottom, but also Chaotic due to it being on the right side.

Yeah this is actually pretty close. The Chronicles chart doesn't take into account the historical context, because not all of these forces existed during the ordering of the universe.

Light and Void are cosmic forces of order, opposite and in balance. It was the Old Gods, minions of the Void, which corrupted the Titan's perfect creations (Light) with the Curse of Flesh which created Life.

Life and Fel are deformations of the cosmic powers Light and Void, and they both represent disorder in the universe. Fel is the opposite of life, and is fueled by the consumption of Life energy.

Unholy Magic/Necromancy are both within the realm of Void Magic. All things that live have an echo(soul) in the void, and Necromancy is the process of penetrating the Shadow Lands to work soul magic.

[The5thVegetable]

From my knowledge on necromancy in general, and what the image from the chronicles, I can deduce that death is a force of its own, and, as far as i've seen, is rarely if ever directly manipulated- instead, it's manipulated through other schools of magic, which would be consistent with the fact several schools of magic appear to be capable of achieving the same effect- Arcane can raise the dead as conventional necromancy, the void can raise the dead, and I believe fel also can be used for necromancy. It's not necessarily a single one of these forces, but rather either of these forces achieving the same thing by manipulating the fundamental forces of death- though it may also be a case of two or more of these forces crossing over in order to achieve it.

At least, that's my theory- but I will say that concluding that necromancy is void magic entirely, or at least that all necromancy is void magic, is false, considering necromancy is counted as one of the schools of arcane magic.

[vondevon]

...the Botani, for example, have zombified corpses and returned them to unlife by parasitic infection with invasive Nature magic. You could argue that these shambling husks aren't technically "zombies" in the way a Scourge ghoul or skeleton is...

So traditional Necromancy can occur in 2 forms:

1) You can bond raw shadow magic to a physical body like a marionette, giving the caster direct control over an otherwise mindless hunk of flesh; or

2) You can use shadow magic to find and bond a deceased soul to a corpse, and that soul will act autonomously, with the caster's control limited to their ability to dominate the will of the victim

Other schools of magic can mimic the effects of Necromancy, as you note in the case of the Botani. I also like to think of Fordragon, who was burned at the Wrath Gate. Instead of being incinerated, the powerful Life magic sealed his soul inside an undying body. Fusing with the powerful necromantic soul of Nerzhul/Lich King gave him dominion over the undead.

[Rafoel]

What is its source?

The source of necromantic magic seems to be the Void. This is especially seen within Shadowmoon Burial Grounds dungeon, and encounter with Ner'zhul.
The term "necromantic" is misleading though. The correct term should be Void magic, which is more concentrated form of Shadow magic. Necromancy is just a name for manipulation of death, which is one of many things that can be achieved with the use of Void magics,.

How would it fare against arcane, fel.

Canonically, Light and Void are 2 fundamental forces of the Universe. Therefore, theoretically, void magic is the most powerful type of magics of all, equal only to light magics.

Consider this - Emperor Mar'gok was the most powerful ogre sorcerer (I command the arcane! ) of his time, and had numerous powerful artifacts (the Stones, part of encounter) to his disposal. Yet, he was instantly annihilated by Cho'gall, who was much weaker mage than Mar'gok, but came armed with pure void magics.

Also, Cho'gall was a member of Shadow Council, and had full knowledge about Legion and power of fel that came with it. Still, he switched allegiance to the Void when he discovered its power beneath Nagrand.

Unholy death knight seemed to be described as the counter parts of paladin who use the light but we know the counterpart of the light is the void which dk's don't primarily seem to use.

When DK's were designed, Void wasn't established in lore. Their powers were based on Arthas character from WC3. Unholy, because he could raise dead allies as undead. Frost, because the chill of Frostmourne, and Frozen Throne of the Lich King. Blood, because of Blood Pact and ability to heal undead and self. Still, the original Death Knights from WC2 were orc warlocks, and warlocks are especially known for their use of Shadow magics. The connection was established already back there. Nevertheless, the whole Unholy tree was always presented as opposite of paladin's Holy tree, and we now know that opposite of Light (Holy) is Void.

I guess it could be described as soul magic?

No, I wouldn't call it that. Fel suits that more - it can take power straight from soul of user, or even other souls (that's how Dark Portal was powered).

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"Necrotic" in an unqualified descriptor, however. The Scourge are prototypical undead animated by Shadow and Void type magic, that's beyond contesting. But you also have instances where the Botani, for example, have zombified corpses and returned them to unlife by parasitic infection with invasive Nature magic. You could argue that these shambling husks aren't technically "zombies" in the way a Scourge ghoul or skeleton is - but they meet the definition of a previously dead and inanimate corpse shuffling around and attacking the living. You've also got a case where a Tauren Shaman, Shotoa, was brought into a curious state of undeath by Ragnaros on the occasion of his death by making him a partial fire elemental.

Necromancy, the typical method by which undead are created, is almost universally Shadow magic. But undead beings in WoW can arise from other sources, even from magical essences more typically aligned with "good."

No, actually not. The Botani horrors are basically... alive. It's "parasitic infection". The host is dead, but the parasites that animate it are not. The body becomes sort of manually driven vehicle for the microorganism that take control of it. It might look similarly from the outside, but is something else on fundamental level.

This Shotoa character wasn't familiar to me, so I looked it up. It isn't stated anywhere that he became undead. It's said his "life force was preserved". The energy didn't revive, it merely prevented his death. He was basically on artificial life support.

[Aucald]

No, actually not. The Botani horrors are basically... alive. It's "parasitic infection". The host is dead, but the parasites that animate it are not. The body becomes sort of manually driven vehicle for the microorganism that take control of it. It might look similarly from the outside, but is something else on fundamental level.

This Shotoa character wasn't familiar to me, so I looked it up. It isn't stated anywhere that he became undead. It's said his "life force was preserved". The energy didn't revive, it merely prevented his death. He was basically on artificial life support.

That's essentially what I mean in my post - the Botani horrors and Shotoa are both examples of lives continued in a decidedly unnatural fashion, creating atypical "undead" specimens. From a practical standpoint when a corpse is lumbering around and lunges at you it's not really the time to question "okay, was it raised by Shadow magic or invasive Nature parasites?" As you said the mechanism is different but the outcome is the same - lumbering corpses reanimated by external means, be it Shadow magic or invasive living parasites.

You've also got entities like Meryl Winterstorm/Felstorm, a human Mage who somehow resurrected himself and keeps himself alive by apparently purely Arcane means - he's not a Necromancer as he's one of the earliest human mages from the Troll Wars. Shotoa is another being that was killed and somehow unnaturally preserved by Elemental forces - a predicament that twisted his mind and leaves him in constant agony as he is burning from within.