Watch out for keystone depleters

[barackohmama]

Okay, but how does it handle getting kicked? What about if you DC first?

What about if someone else DC's and you leave?

Game can distinguish between getting kicked and someone that leaves, can't it? So if you get kicked you shouldnt get punished, but if you leave you get punished. Not sure why someone would kick another player though during m+ runs but yeah game can take care of that. DCing should give same punishment after x minutes from starting the run. If someone else gets punished from dc/leave first, you are free to leave/dc all you want. It's the first person who dc/leave who should get punished not anyone else. I know it sucks if you have real dc issues, but that's the unfortunate consequence of having a bad connection. If you DC a lot during a m+ run you probably bring your group down anyway so prio should be to sort your connection then do m+ again. I think most people will be fine with that and sort their stuff out before attempting m+ again.

[Deiae]

You are making this so overly complicated. Invite competent people, behave decent and the run will go fine. If every new moon you stumble upon some douchebag, that happens. So is life. If it happens more often to you, maybe you are part of the problem and need to look into what is causing your groups to disassemble. Not all interactions between people can be fixed by some game algorithm.

[barackohmama]

You are making this so overly complicated. Invite competent people, behave decent and the run will go fine. If every new moon you stumble upon some douchebag, that happens. So is life. If it happens more often to you, maybe you are part of the problem and need to look into what is causing your groups to disassemble. Not all interactions between people can be fixed by some game algorithm.

How do you know someone is competent? Guild runs don't have this problem of course, but I though we were talking about pugs. Early leavers after a bad pull is quite common no matter how good your group looks on wowprogress. And even if you could recover fine from early mistake and make 2-3 chests like you intended from the start you are instead stuck with a depleted key. That is what sucks having to deal with rage quitters. A punishment system wouldn't hurt at least and wouldn't be hard to implement.

[Deiae]

Competence here is relative to what you try to do and you can use any metric you deem significant and live with the result. As for rage quits - usually something happened to induce that rage. Most people are patient enough and can distinguish between just a wipe, this is difficult and mistakes happen and that is won't get better and you cannot be asked to stay. Why would you punish people for understandable behavior? Most forms of punishments that were put forward in this thread are so far out of proportion because people are upset. If a key run doesn't go well or gets depleted, so what? Maybe you were not good enough. Brush up, go join another group and try again.
It is great that everyone has a key and you can join any number of groups each week. It is great that you can rerun a key and try again if you want to - say if you want to do a really high key level you haven't tackled before. Why would cut down on that freedom? Why would you deter players to join a pug because they fear a severe punishment if something goes south? The keys are plentiful and you should just come to the understanding that is nothing to get worked up about.
Most people have an active interest to complete the run they join. Something has to have happened to make them leave.

[Temp name]

Game can distinguish between getting kicked and someone that leaves, can't it? So if you get kicked you shouldnt get punished, but if you leave you get punished. Not sure why someone would kick another player though during m+ runs but yeah game can take care of that. DCing should give same punishment after x minutes from starting the run. If someone else gets punished from dc/leave first, you are free to leave/dc all you want. It's the first person who dc/leave who should get punished not anyone else. I know it sucks if you have real dc issues, but that's the unfortunate consequence of having a bad connection. If you DC a lot during a m+ run you probably bring your group down anyway so prio should be to sort your connection then do m+ again. I think most people will be fine with that and sort their stuff out before attempting m+ again.

What if someone gets kicked and you leave? Do you still get punished?

What if I decide to just go afk until I get kicked?

[Polybius]

Pics or didn't happen. Also pointless if you're not posting their names.

They posted the names but took them down. Naming and shaming is against forum rules.

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Dead serious, I love WoW but the community has been screwing me for years ever since they brought in gearscore. I don't owe them a damn thing.

They don't owe you anything back.

[barackohmama]

Competence here is relative to what you try to do and you can use any metric you deem significant and live with the result. As for rage quits - usually something happened to induce that rage. Most people are patient enough and can distinguish between just a wipe, this is difficult and mistakes happen and that is won't get better and you cannot be asked to stay. Why would you punish people for understandable behavior? Most forms of punishments that were put forward in this thread are so far out of proportion because people are upset. If a key run doesn't go well or gets depleted, so what? Maybe you were not good enough. Brush up, go join another group and try again.
It is great that everyone has a key and you can join any number of groups each week. It is great that you can rerun a key and try again if you want to - say if you want to do a really high key level you haven't tackled before. Why would cut down on that freedom? Why would deter players to join a pug because they fear a severe punishment if something goes south. The keys are plentiful and you should just come to the understanding that is nothing to get worked up about.
Most people have an active interest to complete the run they join. Something has to have happened to make them leave.

Usually something happends to induce that rage. Yeah for sure. It's enough that the tank body pulls, or the rage quiter is not aware that he pulled himself to induce that rage. You seem to think people leave for good reasons every time. Well they don't, not by far. And try to convince a not so sought after class or an alt that there are plentiful of keys and I don't think they will agree with you.

I give you an example. Did a +14 CoS yesterday and the very first pull a mage pulled extra at the first pillar. He wasn't aware that it was his fault, instead he blamed the group for wiping saying something like "really?", then he left the group just like that. The rest of us 4 stayed however but we didn't beat the timer(we were like 1 min off), so the guy who created the group has to go through a lot of hassle to get his +15 done this week seeing he was a warlock dps. The mage however probably just ported straight back to the entrance and found a new group eventually(he had decent m+ score). Great system huh?

There are a lot of rage quitter who quit without any good reason. Out of every first pull wipe i'd say that at least half of them has one rage quitter. The good reasons for an early leave are very few.

[Deiae]

So the warlock gets a chest for 14 if he does nothing else and you completed the dungeon and got loot. Seems fine for you stumbling across a douchebag - as I said that happens but it is not the norm.
If the wl had a decent m+ score he would also find a group quickly to get a 15 done.
An alt that is not geared or has not played much on it cannot expect that he will get treated just as well as a main character or be embraced by the community.

[barackohmama]

What if someone gets kicked and you leave? Do you still get punished?

What if I decide to just go afk until I get kicked?

As I said. If someone gets kicked first you'd of course get no punishment for leaving. Getting kicked in m+ is rare though which is self explanatory.

If you go afk i'd say you had a good reason to do it and should not get punished. It's one of the unfortunate circumstances that you can't do anything about. It sucks for you and for the group basically. People who go afk by purpose to waste both their own and everyone else's time should be super rare.

[Temp name]

As I said. If someone gets kicked first you'd of course get no punishment for leaving. Getting kicked in m+ is rare though which is self explanatory.

If you go afk i'd say you had a good reason to do it and should not get punished. It's one of the unfortunate circumstances that you can't do anything about. It sucks for you and for the group basically. People who go afk by purpose to waste both their own and everyone else's time should be super rare.

My reason for going afk is that I don't want to get punished by leaving.

No matter the system, it will have flaws, and those flaws will be exploited.

[Zyky]

A player left from your Keystone group.
Pop-up window: do you want to report? The same number of votes should be required as a votekick. Leaver gets a 1 day ban.

If this is not fair, then kicking is also not fair and should be removed from the game too.

Then it'll get abused on the other end of the spectrum because Blizzard isn't going to have a person sit and look at every report one at a time, they're going to have a program filter through and be like "ban ban ban" even if the group of friends want to be a dick to one person for literally no reason. And yes this happens. People get kicked from Dungeons, LFR, Heroic raid pugs for no reason at all, so its very likely people will use this way to abuse other players.

[barackohmama]

So the warlock gets a chest for 14 if he does nothing else and you completed the dungeon and got loot. Seems fine for you stumbling across a douchebag - as I said that happens but it is not the norm.
If the wl had a decent m+ score he would also find a group quickly to get a 15 done.
An alt that is not geared or has not played much on it cannot expect that he will get treated just as well as a main character or be embraced by the community.

Do you know how rare it is for people to stay after someone leaves? 4 ppl staying to finish the run is not the norm.. Most of the times everyone leaves within seconds. It's not fine finishing 4 man and it's certainly not fine to rage quit without punishment.

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My reason for going afk is that I don't want to get punished by leaving.

No matter the system, it will have flaws, and those flaws will be exploited.

As I said, then you are just stupid. Who would do such thing. You are basically just wasting your own time for what purpose? I don't think that will occur and if it does be super rare. If group is so bad you are better off not helping it to finish faster then the group probably doesn't even care themself about the key. You are reaching for straws here.

And of course there will always be flaws. But having no punishment system is even more of a flaw. There's a reason deserter debuff exists, it's there to discourage douchbaggery.

[Ulfric Trumpcloak]

They posted the names but took them down. Naming and shaming is against forum rules.

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They don't owe you anything back.

Moderators usually don't even care, even on the official blizzard forums they ignore it completely. Wanna be internet police are the only ones that keep bringing this nonsense up.

http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/8...watch-out-for/

It's pointless to make a thread about this, if you're not going to expose them. Everybody already knows this happens.

[Temp name]

As I said, then you are just stupid. Who would do such thing. You are basically just wasting your own time for what purpose? I don't think that will occur and if it does be super rare. You are reaching for straws here.

If I don't want to complete the dungeon, I will not complete the dungeon. What you're left with in this system is a system that still allows the abuse the OP experienced while punishing some people who have a legitimate reason/just have bad internet.

But really, I'm just merely playing devils advocate here. If you can't stop abuse, and end up only punishing people who don't abuse the system, what is the point of the system?

[barackohmama]

If I don't want to complete the dungeon, I will not complete the dungeon. What you're left with in this system is a system that still allows the abuse the OP experienced while punishing some people who have a legitimate reason/just have bad internet.

But really, I'm just merely playing devils advocate here. If you can't stop abuse, and end up only punishing people who don't abuse the system, what is the point of the system?

If you want to waste your own time then sure go ahead. I don't mind if you go afk with my system, but most people won't. The system is there to discourage abuse, not to eliminate it completely.

You forgot it will punish those who just /leave

[Sencha]

That's the price to pay for pugging.

Play with friends.

[Temp name]

If you want to waste your own time then sure go ahead. I don't mind if you go afk with my system, but most people won't. The system is there to discourage abuse, not to eliminate it completely.

You forgot it will punish those who just /leave

Yeah, but those aren't the guys who will do it to be assholes, those are the guys who for one reason or another don't want to complete the instance, be it the group being bad/idiots, or something coming up irl. And if you start punishing those people, you make the game less fun overall for them, and no fun = no sub

[barackohmama]

Yeah, but those aren't the guys who will do it to be assholes, those are the guys who for one reason or another don't want to complete the instance, be it the group being bad/idiots, or something coming up irl. And if you start punishing those people, you make the game less fun overall for them, and no fun = no sub

I'm not punishing them. They can go afk if they want. But if they leave the group they get punished. Most people however will finish the run and not go afk during it because that's what they want to do, finish the run as fast as possible. You are talking about a small percent of players btw, which won't affect subs by much.

[Temp name]

I'm not punishing them. They can go afk if they want. But if they leave the group they get punished. Most people however will finish the run and not go afk during it because that's what they want to do, finish the run as fast as possible. You are talking about a small percent of players btw, which won't affect subs by much.

Apparently enough that Blizzard didn't feel like punishing them. Because if you think Blizzard hasn't had these discussions, you're wrong.

[barackohmama]

Apparently enough that Blizzard didn't feel like punishing them. Because if you think Blizzard hasn't had these discussions, you're wrong.

I'm sure they had the same discussion about deserter debuff, but eventually they implemented it. Just because they haven't announced anything doesn't mean they will just leave the system like it is now. This whole thread is proof that it's a concern for many people and many subs.