Over 2000 guilds stuck at 3/10 mythic, was tuning 7 bosses to 54 traits a mistake?

[Saverem]

I mean, that's a useless number without also knowing how many guilds are raiding in the first place, and how many of those 2,000 guilds have people short on artifact traits.

This.

Throwing out a number without any context doesn't really prove anything. It's like saying "2000 is a large number" but comparative to what? If it's the amount in dollars that you found on the side of the road, then yes, that's a high number. If it's the amount of annual USD GDP of a country, then it's a very very tiny number.


How many guilds are there in WoW? How many of those raid? How many of those are casual/hardcore? How many are stuck on 3/10 as compared to 1/10, 2/10, 4/10, etc.? How many are even in Mythic? Heroic? Normal? etc.

[Ultramad]

This.

Throwing out a number without any context doesn't really prove anything. It's like saying "2000 is a large number" but comparative to what? If it's the amount in dollars that you found on the side of the road, then yes, that's a high number. If it's the amount of annual USD GDP of a country, then it's a very very tiny number.


How many guilds are there in WoW? How many of those raid? How many of those are casual/hardcore? How many are stuck on 3/10 as compared to 1/10, 2/10, 4/10, etc.? How many are even in Mythic? Heroic? Normal? etc.

We ended up killing Botanist 4th and Spellblade 5th without even half our group at 54 traits. I don't think you need 54 traits for half the bosses in there at all.

[Deleted]

who exactly carries? lets say, when whole raid team is less than 75th percentile?

Method vs Gul'dan video you see damage meters at end (15:37):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UH9EG3iCXc
max dps is done by fury warrior, it's 847k - guess what? it's atm less than 75th percentile (853.5k):
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...rior&spec=Fury
same with exorsus (world 1st kill), @18:13 (842k):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5BTdavXUSc

Those kills didnt use the "stack dmg Bomb debuff to 4"- Strat thats why kills by now have far higher dps
Usually you get 30s of 150% increased dmg done
With the strat used by "Afk r" you get 1m with 200% dmg done.

So your comparsion makes exactly zero sense.

[theyanger]

If you aren't at 54 by now, you're coasting and not even putting minimal effort in.

Since legion dropped, I did all ap WQs, NO PVP outside of the towers and the two daily pvp wq, 3-5 M+ a week and normal through heroic and then just heroic and mythic clears of EN.

I was 54 before TOV dropped.

Mythic bosses aren't going to just turn around, bend over and ask you to have your way with them.

You want to be lazy? Fine, go ahead. Heroic is the place for you.
The 54 trait tuning was announced in advance. You had ample time to get it done.

You really cannot blame Blizzard for your lack of due diligence.


It's not even a "git gud" scenario.
There was nothing particularly hard about getting AP. NOTHING.

Before I get the "no-life" comments, I work full time, Monday - Friday.

You were absolutely NOT 54 before TOV dropped lol. Why even undermine your argument with such blatantly false statements?

Like, your retraction isn't any better, you absolutely DID NOT have 35 or 54 without doing a crapload of M+ prior to both releasing, period. Doing a lot of other stuf f'the entire time' barely dents anything due to how the scaling of AK works.

[Sentynel]

If you aren't at 54 by now, you're coasting and not even putting minimal effort in.

Since legion dropped, I did all ap WQs, NO PVP outside of the towers and the two daily pvp wq, 3-5 M+ a week and normal through heroic and then just heroic and mythic clears of EN.

I was 54 before TOV dropped.

Mythic bosses aren't going to just turn around, bend over and ask you to have your way with them.

You want to be lazy? Fine, go ahead. Heroic is the place for you.
The 54 trait tuning was announced in advance. You had ample time to get it done.

You really cannot blame Blizzard for your lack of due diligence.


It's not even a "git gud" scenario.
There was nothing particularly hard about getting AP. NOTHING.

Before I get the "no-life" comments, I work full time, Monday - Friday.

Trial of Valor was released on Nov 8th, 2016.
http://www.wowhead.com/trial-of-valor

World First 54 trait was achieved on Dec 9th, 2016
http://www.wowhead.com/news=258293/w...e-maelstrom-eu

No fucking way you were 54, or even near 50 by the time ToV opened.

[Fynzie]

I was 54 before TOV dropped.
.

Haha, not even close.

[Deleted]

tuning a boss towards the 54 traits is dumb, this would not be a problem if we wouldnt have them in the first place, remove them and let us get raid weapons once again !

[Nize]

I don't think it was a mistake.

54 isn't really all that difficult, and those who haven't gotten it as of yet are getting their buff in the next few weeks when 7.2 comes out. All you need is the current equivalent of 36 traits to receive the full 15% damage 15% stam buff that getting 54 traits gives you.

Blizzard planned for 7.2 to be the form of "nerfing Nighthold" to give the slack community a chance at more bosses.

[Richardbro]

If you aren't at 54 by now, you're coasting and not even putting minimal effort in.

Since legion dropped, I did all ap WQs, NO PVP outside of the towers and the two daily pvp wq, 3-5 M+ a week and normal through heroic and then just heroic and mythic clears of EN.

I was 54 before TOV dropped.

Mythic bosses aren't going to just turn around, bend over and ask you to have your way with them.

You want to be lazy? Fine, go ahead. Heroic is the place for you.
The 54 trait tuning was announced in advance. You had ample time to get it done.

You really cannot blame Blizzard for your lack of due diligence.


It's not even a "git gud" scenario.
There was nothing particularly hard about getting AP. NOTHING.

Before I get the "no-life" comments, I work full time, Monday - Friday.

You clearly have no idea what you're talking about at all qnd your argument is laughable as proven wrong by others.

[theyanger]

I don't think it was a mistake.

54 isn't really all that difficult, and those who haven't gotten it as of yet are getting their buff in the next few weeks when 7.2 comes out. All you need is the current equivalent of 36 traits to receive the full 15% damage 15% stam buff that getting 54 traits gives you.

Blizzard planned for 7.2 to be the form of "nerfing Nighthold" to give the slack community a chance at more bosses.

lol, the problem is that it's not 'nerfing nighthold' it's 'making nighthold possible'

The bosses are tuned for even the most hardcore guilds to need 54 traits pretty well accross the board (Depending on someone's class, role, importance, I'm sure you can have one or two that weren't, we've had a healer step in below 54 just fine, for example, but it's still not ideal). Stop trying to defend this garbage just because you like wow.

[jayheals]

expecting 54 traits is reasonable enough, the real crime was the balancing shake-up in 7.1.5. Frost mage is mostly more effective than fire now, fury is generally more valuable than arms, frost > unholy. They really promised they wouldnt make any big balancing changes so that people wouldn't feel like they fully invested in the "wrong" spec, when that's exactly what happened and exactly what's happened pretty much every expansion I've played.

[KaPe]

expecting 54 traits is reasonable enough, the real crime was the balancing shake-up in 7.1.5. Frost mage is mostly more effective than fire now, fury is generally more valuable than arms, frost > unholy. They really promised they wouldnt make any big balancing changes so that people wouldn't feel like they fully invested in the "wrong" spec, when that's exactly what happened and exactly what's happened pretty much every expansion I've played.

They did the same thing they do every expansion, except they forgot that this time, changing specs isn't nearly as easy. Their bullshit excuses along the lines of "it would feel strange to change specs and have same amount of AP in an entirely different weapon" and "legendaries often have flavour text so they can't exactly morph into something else" are cringeworthy. Krosus is just the most obvious example, where half of the caster specs get shafted and respecing won't really help without legendaries. It's not that bad on other three bosses, but they aren't exactly trivial either.

So it's not really "expecting 54 traits" - it's expecting 54 traits in a spec that you might not normally play, as well as decent legendaries. The former is doable, but requires a lot of grind. The latter is down to luck.

Cue the usual "well we killed it with one guy having 42! he totally didn't get carried and didn't cause healers heart attack by surviving with 10k hp after each slam."

[kamuimac]

So it's not really "expecting 54 traits" - it's expecting 54 traits in a spec that you might not normally play, as well as decent legendaries. The former is doable, but requires a lot of grind. The latter is down to luck.

the only ones doing that to yourselves are you - you dont need bis eveyrthing to progres , you dont need swaping spec on boss basis - its just your sick desire to be always on top of meters. as long as you dont relaise that you will always complain about something.

if you want to be hardcore act liek one and grind liek good grinder - if you dont want to do that stop pretending you are hardcore you are not and if you are causal act liek one.

[Grimreaper]

What? No, bosses 4-7 are all tuned assuming that your raid has ~900 ilvl and the dps with their set bonuses. Bosses 8-10 are tuned for 54 traits plus the previous.

So people with 54 traits, 4p tier and ilvl 900+ who are simulating at 500-550k dps are just plain bad then?

I'm at ilvl 906 and i'm only just barely doing above 600k. Ilvl means pretty much nothing nowadays, as it's not related to expected dps output as much as before.

- - - Updated - - -

If you aren't at 54 by now, you're coasting and not even putting minimal effort in.

Since legion dropped, I did all ap WQs, NO PVP outside of the towers and the two daily pvp wq, 3-5 M+ a week and normal through heroic and then just heroic and mythic clears of EN.

I was 54 before TOV dropped.

Mythic bosses aren't going to just turn around, bend over and ask you to have your way with them.

Nobody is saying that.

You want to be lazy? Fine, go ahead. Heroic is the place for you.

Heroic is way too easy, so is the first 3 mythic bosses. The step up from the first 3 bosses is too big.

The 54 trait tuning was announced in advance. You had ample time to get it done.

You really cannot blame Blizzard for your lack of due diligence.

So more timed gating is good then? I dont really agree.

It's not even a "git gud" scenario.
There was nothing particularly hard about getting AP. NOTHING.

Exactly, so why even have it in the game at all?

Before I get the "no-life" comments, I work full time, Monday - Friday.

...and you live in your mom's basement. I would know, i used to do the same.

[kamuimac]

Heroic is way too easy, so is the first 3 mythic bosses. The step up from the first 3 bosses is too big.

there always have been a step up - thing is nowadays people have choice - if they dont have numebrs to overgear/overpower krosus they should go to other 2 and focus on learning mechanics - the only problem is people being idiots and trying to copy&paste progress route of much better guilds instead tailor it to their own needs.

[klogaroth]

There have been gaps of this margin, and sometimes much bigger gaps, between some early bosses and the next step up in almost every tier ever. You can't blame AP for the gaps that can be found in almost every raid for at least the past 11 tiers. If anyone has data on tier 7 or earlier then I suspect we'll see the same pattern in those.

[Deleted]

There have been gaps of this margin, and sometimes much bigger gaps, between some early bosses and the next step up in almost every tier ever.

In which raid or tier? Curious...

[klogaroth]

In which raid or tier? Curious...

HFC - after Kilrogg was a near 2,000 drop
BRF - after Gruul was a ~1,700 drop
Highmaul - after Kargath was a ~5,000 drop
SoO - after Fallen Protectors was a ~2,400 drop
ToT - after Jin'rokh was a ~4,400 drop
HoF - after Ta'yak was a ~1,500 drop
MSV - after Stone Guard was a 2,100 ~drop
DS - after Morchok was a ~10,000 drop
FL - after Shannox was a ~6,500 drop
T11 - after Halfus was a ~10,000 drop
ICC - after Gunship was a near 25,000 drop
TotGC - after Jaraxxus was a ~2,400 drop
Ulduar - after Heartbreaker there was a ~2700 drop to the next hard mode, I Choose you Molgeim, which wasn't even the hardest mode of the fight.

Notes on rounding - ~ indicates rounded down, near indicates rounded up due to being very close to the next 100

The exact point in which the first big dip in completion in a raid varies, some let you get further in before the difficulty spike occurs, but most raids have a boss early on where a lot of people get stuck. Whether that's because (very subjective) the early bosses are too easy or the later bosses are too hard also varies. It would be easy to argue that the Gunship drop, for example, was as much to do with the ease of Gunship as it was the difficulty of subsequent bosses. The result is the same though, a difficulty spike early on in the instance, where things start to get harder and kill numbers drop off.

None of these gaps can be blamed on the AP system. Given that these are end of tier numbers there is a difference to the exact situation we're currently in, but I would expect current trends to continue on as the tier progresses, giving similar results at the end of the tier.

It's not all that unusual for there to be one or more bosses at the start of mythic(or heroic back then) that aren't much of a step up, and sometimes a step down, from the last boss of heroic (or normal back then). After these, as mentioned above, the difficulty hits another level and kills drop off.

[Deleted]

HFC - after Kilrogg was a near 2,000 drop
BRF - after Gruul was a ~1,700 drop
Highmaul - after Kargath was a ~5,000 drop
SoO - after Fallen Protectors was a ~2,400 drop
ToT - after Jin'rokh was a ~4,400 drop
HoF - after Ta'yak was a ~1,500 drop
MSV - after Stone Guard was a 2,100 ~drop
DS - after Morchok was a ~10,000 drop
FL - after Shannox was a ~6,500 drop
T11 - after Halfus was a ~10,000 drop
ICC - after Gunship was a near 25,000 drop
TotGC - after Jaraxxus was a ~2,400 drop
Ulduar - after Heartbreaker there was a ~2700 drop to the next hard mode, I Choose you Molgeim, which wasn't even the hardest mode of the fight.

Notes on rounding - ~ indicates rounded down, near indicates rounded up due to being very close to the next 100

The exact point in which the first big dip in completion in a raid varies, some let you get further in before the difficulty spike occurs, but most raids have a boss early on where a lot of people get stuck. Whether that's because (very subjective) the early bosses are too easy or the later bosses are too hard also varies. It would be easy to argue that the Gunship drop, for example, was as much to do with the ease of Gunship as it was the difficulty of subsequent bosses. The result is the same though, a difficulty spike early on in the instance, where things start to get harder and kill numbers drop off.

None of these gaps can be blamed on the AP system. Given that these are end of tier numbers there is a difference to the exact situation we're currently in, but I would expect current trends to continue on as the tier progresses, giving similar results at the end of the tier.

It's not all that unusual for there to be one or more bosses at the start of mythic(or heroic back then) that aren't much of a step up, and sometimes a step down, from the last boss of heroic (or normal back then). After these, as mentioned above, the difficulty hits another level and kills drop off.

The only example I agree with is the one of ToT. In other cases you had way more options...

About HFC: that is quite normal to have the difficulty scale up after FIVE bosses. However even then many found ways to skip Gorefiend and kill Zakuun and Iskar first.
About BRF: same, the difficulty curve was more gradual than in NH, despite being similar to NH in design in that you could choose which boss to go next after.
Highmaul: seriously?
SoO: There is always a drop but not as steep as it is now. You´re telling me that Iron Juggernaut was a difficult boss on Heroic?
ToT: This is the only example I agree with.
HoF: Wind Lord hard? Garalon hard? The only issue with HoF was that the first boss was more difficult than most others so you had to take it down on normal mode for many resets.
MSV: incredibly well-balanced raid for semi-skilled players. The difficulty after Stone Guard didnt scale up super suddenly, but gradually
DS: during the whole raid people had no complaints until Spine of Deathwing. And you know it.
FL: Seriously? There were no cockblocks in FL apart from Ragnaros.
Tier 11: many bosses were bugged for 1.5 months after launch + you could choose your next boss + Halfus was cheesable.
ICC: the difficulty curve was not linear. People skipped harder bosses and took first wing bosses first. That is incredibly fine.
ToC: lol
Ulduar: you are incorrect, Steelbreaker took around a week for most guilds to down because it mostly relied on tank cooldowns and burst spam healing by Holy Paladins

[Advo]

This is the biggest mid-raid wall I can recall since siegecrafter from SoO. I suppose gorefiend could be another, but because bosses after him were noticeably easier it's hard to call it the same situation.