WoW became a horrible boring grindfest

[Kantoro]

i beg to differ. the game is as grindy as hell.

Only becuz you haven't played games that are a true grind, try the korean MMOs. Then you will understand a grind.

[Niwes]

Noone is here for challange. It's all about getting it fast.

at least for one this could not be the truth. otherwise this thread would not exists.

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OP's issue really boils down to one of how quickly gear scales, and in that you aren't all that incorrect. This game is at its best and most rewarding when the players outcome is questionable (ie, before you have that raid on farm, before the first time you ever made a +5 or +10 within the time limit, etc). Even then, with a basically irelevant death penalty, said success is simply a matter of gear acquisition anyhow.

But you call all these things grindfests, when they actually aren't at all. They would still exist as activities to do whether you outgeared them or not. And you outgearing them makes them tedious, which is something different.

yep. the thread derailed to something that was not my intention. my problem is that so much of this game is "easy aoe grind shortliving mobs without challenge". for me grind in general, or easy aoe grind is not a problem. for me its a problem that so much aspects of this game base on that playstyle.

so, you are right, my intentions are more to discuss things like challenge, easyness of the game and, as you said, to fast gear scaling and trvializing content. and missing playstyle diversity.

too much ppl here discuss "grind is bad" or "grind was always the nature of the game". thats right and that is not i was talking about.

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So you are saying WoW haven't always been a grind...?
Give me an example of a time where WoW wasn't a grind.

Maybe it had LESS things to grind in the old days, as opposed to today we have a lot more things to grind.

But it was always a grind for raids, dungeons, gear improvement, farming materials, leveling, pvp rank...everything.

so many ppl dont get it. as i said nearly a thousand times now: I DONT HAVE A PROBLEM WITH GRINDS! grinds are the nature of mmorpgs.

so again, my problem is, that not necessary every grind have to be a brainless aoe grind. you could have to kill masses of mobs (grind) for wquests, elites or whatever, without being a no-challenge piss easy brain dead aoe grind. this form of grind (or playstyle) dont have to be the standard playstyle in nearly every aspect of the game. that is, what this thread is for.

fuck. i am sick of that ppl here.

[Deleted]

I voted YES

[Regalbeast]

When was it ever NOT that way?

[Deleted]

When was it ever NOT that way?

WoW wasn't always -this- grindy

The issue with Legion imo is the amount of RNG alongside the grind that makes it feel bad, if it wasn't for RP I would've quit in January because all I seem to do is lvl character to 110 then spam the same WQs till I am ilvl 840 then sit and wait till 7.2. Unless you're into Mythics end game is awfully repetitive

[Regalbeast]

WoW wasn't always -this- grindy

The issue with Legion imo is the amount of RNG alongside the grind that makes it feel bad, if it wasn't for RP I would've quit in January because all I seem to do is lvl character to 110 then spam the same WQs till I am ilvl 840 then sit and wait till 7.2. Unless you're into Mythics end game is awfully repetitive

Vanilla was the biggest grind-fest of all. WoW was born that way.

[Deleted]

Vanilla was the biggest grind-fest of all. WoW was born that way.

Vanilla also had novelty on its side, 2004 had very little competition in online gaming. Times change as do gamers, I have said it before but if vanilla was released today it would be a flop

[babyback]

WoW wasn't always -this- grindy

The issue with Legion imo is the amount of RNG alongside the grind that makes it feel bad, if it wasn't for RP I would've quit in January because all I seem to do is lvl character to 110 then spam the same WQs till I am ilvl 840 then sit and wait till 7.2. Unless you're into Mythics end game is awfully repetitive

End game has always been about raiding. In comparison to other expansions there is other stuff to do than just raid.

If you weren't into raiding or pvp in other expansions there was literally nothing to do at max lvl.

[Rakaji]

WoW wasn't always -this- grindy

Yeah it was. The difference is that back in the day, the grind was a long-drawn-out process. Each dungeon in vanilla took a good long while to complete, quests were separated and took a lot of running back and forth, and gearing up to be able to clear an entire raid zone took a great long while within itself unless you all knew exactly what you were doing. (Some guilds on vanilla private servers can go from day 1 of a server's launch to clearing Molten Core/Onyxia within 2 weeks)

In Legion, however, almost everything is quick. Mythic keystones are quick, questing is quick, raiding is (mostly) quick, etc. That means you fully complete the same task a bajillion times over and over again, and each time you complete it, it gets a little bit less enjoyable. Eventually it all starts to feel like a chore you have to complete just to play the game, like flossing your teeth. It's not fun. Grinding Mythic dungeons endlessly to stay competitive was the primary reason I stopped playing Legion, personally.

[Deleted]

End game has always been about raiding. In comparison to other expansions there is other stuff to do than just raid.

If you weren't into raiding or pvp in other expansions there was literally nothing to do at max lvl.

It wasn't as hamfisted in though... Fortunately 7.2 is adding more end game stuff like mount collecting new story etc. I occasionally LFR too but there's little rewards imo,

[Niwes]

How about trying the actual RPG part of the MMORPG?
Come up with a backstory or start a new character from scratch and make your story as you go, sure you'll level with the same old "grind" stuff like the last 12 times, but make your personal story matter more than what the quests say. And don't level a race you've already done. Don't use heirlooms and shit. Find people who are actually roleplaying and level with them, fill the world with your own world. If you exclude the end game and quests, WoW is a gigantic fucking sandbox to do a lot of things.

For the mythic+ as i understand they are not capped at level 15, the actual physical rewards maybe, but what i've read someone just cleared the world first +25 recently.
It's not something everybody is doing.. Sure you are not going to get loot, but isn't the challenge itself the reward? I'm pretty sure, unless you're in full mythic raid gear, you're not just going to aoe down a 25+ anything, or maybe maw.

And raiding.. LFR.. normal, why are entry level shit in the list if you want challenge. Mythic Nighthold in fresh 830 there's a challenge. There are guilds out there who do raiding similar to the iron man challenge, or other leveling challenges. Sure it's not how Blizzard intented things, but hey these are challenges by the community who sees the game too easy, you can play hard mode if you want. But you have to be willing to except that at that level loot will not be your reward, but the way to play.

Personally loot has always been an obscure reward in an rpg. Specially in WoW where your character's power is based almost solely on loot. Sure levels grant your baseline. Granted that aspect is currently troublesome to be anything else, since we are all the champions of everything, there's almost no point to have a backstory, unless you're actually choosing to have it your way. My advice is, don't care about the loot, well gear at all. The less you care the more you'll enjoy.

And then there's rated pvp, there's no cap in it unless you're multiseason gladiator, but it requires a team to do it with.

The other stuff is the same as it has always been in this game, on the ground level at least.
Surely the difficulty might be a bit different than say vanilla, but it's still a grind.
I don't see how a vanilla rare elite is anymore special than currently rare elites/world bosses. With the exception that you needed a group to kill one, but still once it's done the second kill is already a grind regardless of being vanilla or legion. Only real difference was whether you spend an hour in trade searching for a party to kill it the first time or 4 seconds in group finder. So the actually difficulty on the non grind first kill is about 59 minutes and 56 seconds.. Which is well time, time to spend doing something else. Go do the dishes if you can spare 59 minutes, or better come do mine, cause i don't have time to do them.
Leveling for example. Sure it took you half the century and thousands of deaths to do in vanilla, but there was no quest structure to the point where you had to go grind pure mobs for levels cause there was nothing else to do. The ultimate level of grind. Quest contents are still similar stuff, kill, collect etc, except there are now even more variations than the base 3 that vanilla had. WQs are dailies, just better cause they a at least a bit more dynamic. But as grindy as ever.

Professions and reps are nothing but grind and have always been. In every single game.
That's the most universal truth there is regarding anything.
I haven't seen a single game where professions or reps are not a grind.

And who is even doing normal/hc 5mans if you are not below 825? Even then it takes an alt like a day or max 2 to get to minimum of 830 for free and do anything else beside normal/hc. Understandably that's part of the problem that there's no difficulty there. But on the other hand, if you're got 12 characters you really really really don't want there to be any difficulty to grind yourself to do NH atm. At this point if you're fresh 110, who the ef wants to spend time doing normal 5mans with any sort of difficulty? But if you want the difficulty, there's a solution with double difficulty. don't accept carries, go to mythic as fresh 780 or whatever. One, your first difficulty will be finding a group that's not a carry and after that you're going to cc every single mob including the bosses inside the instance to not die.

Maybe try alts.. Works for me, i got all 12 classes and i don't have a single extra hour in my day do to anything else. And i can barely do the daily WQs on 2 of the characters or leveling needed on the ones still requiring it. Don't feel bored of Legion, cause there's no time to be bored, there's way too much shit and not enough time in a day to do it all, or to get to the point that i can start doing repetitive tasks.

even when i not agree (to some parts i do), i have to say that its well written.

i disagree mostly to the last part. i much more would prefer the lowlevel challenge with my alts (what you say nobody wants) instead of walkin 2 months through braindead aoe grind shit, before i eventually could see some challenge on the horizon.

[Deleted]

so many ppl dont get it. as i said nearly a thousand times now: I DONT HAVE A PROBLEM WITH GRINDS! grinds are the nature of mmorpgs.

so again, my problem is, that not necessary every grind have to be a brainless aoe grind. you could have to kill masses of mobs (grind) for wquests, elites or whatever, without being a no-challenge piss easy brain dead aoe grind. this form of grind (or playstyle) dont have to be the standard playstyle in nearly every aspect of the game. that is, what this thread is for.

fuck. i am sick of that ppl here.

Ah ok, you are against the "mindless" grinds without any kind of gameplay engagement like World Quests, Emissary Quests for Legendaries and AP farming.
So you want the game to be more engaging with possibly more difficulty.

I can see that, but here is the big question. What do you want to this game that is new and exciting?
No game developer in the world was able to achieve an answer with pure enlightment. I can tell you now for a fact in the entire world no game developers knows how to make an MMORPG different from what they are today.
Because no one was able to make a MMORPG without mindless grinds ever on planet earth

I'm still waiting for the mastermind developer to step in and revolutionize the MMO genre.

[Niwes]

This thread isn't going in the direction OP was hoping for

yep, in some sense (dont know if yours is sarcasm) is this the only true statement in this thread.

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Ah ok, you are against the "mindless" grinds without any kind of gameplay engagement like World Quests, Emissary Quests for Legendaries and AP farming.
So you want the game to be more engaging with possibly more difficulty.

I can see that, but here is the big question. What do you want to this game that is new and exciting?
No game developer in the world was able to achieve an answer with pure enlightment. I can tell you now for a fact in the entire world no game developers knows how to make an MMORPG different from what they are today.
Because no one was able to make a MMORPG without mindless grinds ever on planet earth

I'm still waiting for the mastermind developer to step in and revolutionize the MMO genre.

you get what i talk about.

but i am not that sure as you, that a more engaching mmorpg is that impossible.

[Akta]

wow is a grindfest since day 1

[Dawkinsfan69]

But that's the MMORPG genre for you.
It was always like this and this is the best iteration of it from all the expansions.

It's not really a WoW problem, is a MMO genre problem that has not evolved with the times.

WoW is the leading MMO and therefore it defines the genre.

You can't just say "but that's the MMO genre for you" when EVERY MMO copies WoW's style.

The reason MMORPG is considered to be a grindy genre is because WoW (the leading and defining MMO) is a grindy game.

Nice circular reasoning behind believing that WoW MUST BE GRINDY because "MMO MEANS GRINDY" when the entire genre revolves around WoW's game play design.

WoW would still be successful if it weren't a crazy skinner-box but the devs would need to put more time into it than they're interested in investing. Instead of doing that, they'll just release an expansion every two years with 2-3 relevant dungeons and let you run them millions of times for +1 iLvl pixels.

[Deleted]

ROFL A THREAD ABOUT LEGION GRINDNESS?

You didnt play vanilla tbc didnt you op eh?


The only "real" issue about Legion Grindfest is that it is TOO_MUCH_FUCKING_FAST, why wasnt in vanilla or tbc tedious to GRINDFEST ALL DAY DM TRIBUTE RUN or SHATTERED HALLS? Because even if you grind the shit out of them all day you have to spent at least 1 hour due to map dimension/cc/regen
now you just enter with an optimized setup, aoe/turbonuke til 13+ then it is just "gl with affix"


nobody will bathe an eye if you have to grind 4-5 "quest" and 3 time the dungeon over 8 hours per day if they are actually time/skill consuming

but doing 30myth+ per day with ez aoe it is more like a job

TL;DR

isnt a problem of "grind" because it was always grind since vanilla day 1 but a problem of "fast packed action" / "turbo nuke aoe and loot"

[ComputerNerd]

Jumping on the latest bandwagon calling everything a grind, with no reasoning other than it being just another buzzword.

Anything that a player chooses to repeat many times over for a pretty consistent result is a grind they created.
Look at how much of that repetition is actually necessary by blizzard dictating so, and how much is what one or more players decides is necessary.

[Netherling]

ROFL A THREAD ABOUT LEGION GRINDNESS?

You didnt play vanilla tbc didnt you op eh?


The only "real" issue about Legion Grindfest is that it is TOO_MUCH_FUCKING_FAST, why wasnt in vanilla or tbc tedious to GRINDFEST ALL DAY DM TRIBUTE RUN or SHATTERED HALLS?
TL;DR

isnt a problem of "grind" because it was always grind since vanilla day 1 but a problem of "fast packed action" / "turbo nuke aoe and loot"

You don't seem to have read the OP, you're basically agreeing with him.

DM tribute and Shattered halls are quite bad examples of the 'grind fest': DM tribute required pre-planning and controlled pulling / ccing / mats from outside the instance; Shattered halls had a timed element to it so it was more of a "turbo nuke aoe".

People are disregarding the OP's opinion about a MINDLESS grind. He's agreeing that WoW has always been grindy, we all know there were horrible grinds in vanilla but many of the examples listed in this thread are just poor. There was no point in doing Shen'drelar; Timbermaw was only really worth doing for enchanters (+15 agi on gloves?); Argent Dawn (this was mostly done by doing Scholo and Strat, i never actually purposefully farmed for their rep). Vanilla did have grinds but they generally weren't mindless and you generally didn't repeat them multiple times a day (dungeons were not repeated as much because they took so long). The farming of materials is overblown too, most players would not have flasked at all in vanilla wow.

The OP is saying that every activity he does in game now is mindless (incredibly easy) and it's true, outside of high level mythic+ and raiding.

[Dawkinsfan69]

outside of high level mythic+ and raiding.

Which is gated behind hundreds of hours of mindless AP+gear grinding.

[anaxie]

Counter strike: Other than Artifact Power (and relics to a certain degree (yes, I purposely left out the Rep req for CoS/Arway, but they have removed the grind for the rest of your characters on the account, stating to my last few words in this paragraph, although nice for the Artifact Power)) being required, the rest is completely optional and is therefore not a grind, in your words.

Have you forgotten the ridiculous rep items which you had to acquire in order to get further down the roads in TBC? The keys? The Karazhan pre-req quest line? TK & SSC? BT? Gold farming for flight in TBC and Wrath?
My personal opinion, though.

Oh you mean complete the previous raids to be attuned. Oh the fucking grind. Also revered between quests and normals was hardly a grind in tbc