Holinka's interview

[Thelxi]

The part about gear, slathering another layer of RNG to fix the problems with RNG, is disgusting. How dumb do they think the people that watch these Q&As are.

[Krusza]

are you even serious? just look at spriest that stopped being a CC/support/mobile class losing stun, disarm, fade "freedom", spectral guise, leap of faith to the point Spriests nowdays are a Warcraft 3 tower: standing still and doing damage with literally nothing else to bring to the table but damage and ONE CC button.

And that level of dumbing down is the same for most specs. That guy is blind.

[Ulfric Trumpcloak]

Blizzard is trying to kill wow off while milking every cent possible. Hearthstone and Overwatch are much bigger games, and Hots has a lot of potential. They ended Starcraft, WoW is next.

[Noblia]

Summary of Holinka's interview (see the front page - permalink):

* We are looking into A, B.
* We are thinking about C, D, E.
* We don't think we are going to do F. <Spends tons of time mulling over the complexities that are so first-level basic that it becomes clear this is the first time Holinka thinks about the topic.>
* That thing you are worried about is working fine, we just have to do a better job explaining how it works.
* We aren't sure about doing G, please send more feedback.
* We sometimes think about H. Don't know if we are going to do it.
* J is a real challenge. No commitments.
* The team is aware that you don't like K.
* By the way, it's all good. We found a metric on which PVP ladder in Legion looks fine compared to ladders of previous expansions. (Or maybe this is false and we just think nobody would pin us on the numbers.)

The only things Holinka said like "here, we did / are going to do this" are:

* Leveling PVP is going to reward more experience (a change of a multiplicative factor, 5 minutes of dev time).
* Rated weekly quests will have bonus rolls (a change of a flag on several quests, same as above, requires next to no time to do).
* They will show the title cutoffs by themselves (at best this is a very minor addition to the bnet API, at worst just a blog post).
* They are extending PVP cups (e-sport, bla bla bla, not something the dev team even does, but whatever).

These guys are officially doing nothing. They have a whole team and the amount of work they can show after several months is less than half of a work day of a single dev.

Disgusting.

Holinka is a fucking hack. Has no fucking idea about how to develop FUN, COMPETITIVE, ADDICTIVE PVP. The man is a moron on all counts.

[Toppy]

It does strike me as odd that Holinka has reined over WoW PvP since WoD, which was arguably the worst time for PvP until Legion took that crown. Yet he's kept as head of PvP. You'd think they would have moved him by now. Look how fast they moved Jay Wilson after he ruined D3.

I mean look at his original baby: Ashran. Which has the distinction of having gotten WORSE with each hotfix that was meant to fix it and ended up being a win trading PvE fest. Look at his interviews: Always full of misinformation and general stupidity. I hate to say that one man is ruining something, but we know Holinka is ignorant about the very thing he heads, he shows us that every time he opens his mouth.

[Seneca]

Surprised you wrote that much to emphasize an obviously flawed comparison for balance

First of all, 9/10 of my post is not about the comparison with LoL, the last 1/10 is about that.

as LoL is objective based 5v5 and WoW is a kill based 3v3. Not saying LoL is not balanced better than WoW.. but it's impossible to quantify that difference the way you framed this argument.

In fact I was talking about 3v3 at 3k rating, was not comparing LoL 5v5s with WoW duels. 3v3 at 3k rating means anyone knows what to do (so skill issues are very minimal and the issues must be somewhere else).

Said that, it's basically impossible to quantify 99% of any comparison tbh (as you say), unless you compare the same thing, and that is a moot point. So noone ever compare anything or we try to compare what is as similar as possible (in my case, win rate with the weakest champions/specs at the 99th percentile).

So, my point was, you can take the shittiest champions in LoL and win almost 50% of time at the highest ratings.
You can't take the shittiest specs in WoW and win almost 50% of time at the highest ratings, not even close.

it becomes apparent that WoW PVP team are inept morons, they are losing a hundred-fold on their chosen metric to the guys for whom that metric is just one out of many.

I agree with all you said but I wanted to reply to this in particular.

I mean, the comparison I did should have been biased toward WoW, considering that it is the only metric and context blizzard have been balancing in the last decade (3v3, high rating, spec representation).

I don't even want to think what the comparison could have shown if it was about agency (how capable your spec is to change the outcome of a fight), skill floor/ceiling (many times LoL devs try to decrease or increase the skill floor/ceiling of problematic champions), role (how one-trick-pony your spec is), healthiness (how healthy the balance is, i.e. I can flip a coin when a game starts and win 50% of the time if I choose the right face of the coin, that doesn't make the spec balanced in a healthy way), and so on.

An example about a balance issue: spec A is not overpowered, but might have a very strong comp based on 2 other overpowered specs B and C, and this combo makes spec A looks extremely broken, when in the end the issue are about spec B and C and the interaction among spec A, B and C.

[Omaski]

You didn't really get my point did you?

First off, in order to be competitive you need to fill out your artifact, all of it. At the very least all traits increase stamina which matters a lot more than some think.

Gear does matter, stop acting clueless. And the variance on my gear is 30 ilvls and if I'd been lucky I could've had about 12 or so higher total ilvl, just because of luck. Multiply that difference by 3 and it's a whopping 3.6% difference, on top of possible honor talent/trait disadvantages. Oh and in before "3% is nothing, gear doesn't matter", yeah so why dont we go ahead and nerf your spec by 3.6% and see how you like that, doesn't matter huh?

RNG gearing sucks, stop defending it.



This, so much. They're staying away from all the hard questions regarding design because their answers would all be "Well, we disagree with you, we value casuals and PvErs opinion on PvP class design more - so fuck you" which would cause an uproar in the PvP community (which they of course want to avoid, they still want our $$$).

I'm certain about 90-95% of PvPers rated 2.2K+ (or even 2K+) think the current class design (philosophy) is retarded (everything from AoE in damage rotations to CC to mechanics, passives etc). The only ones defending the current design seems to be the "vanilla warrior, loved pvp back then havn't done any PvP content for 7 years - fuck cc, pillar hugging and skillfull gameplay" and the "I got 2k+ first time ever in legion <3" type of players.

The PvP community wants depth and skill back, Blizzard just don't care about the PvP community (so far), it's that simple.

- - - Updated - - -



What? Seriously? The role of the Ret spec is the exact same as it's always been, the only difference is the class got wheel chair'd. Blessing of Sanctuary, auto-bubble and damage while bop'd combined with the removal of other talents. Ret's worse of design wise than it's been for a long long time. Also Rets have had several times during the history when they've been good (s5, s11 and well all of wod they were decent - comes to mind), so claiming no one wants the ret toolkit is bullshit. Removing a classes weaknesses in favour of retard auto-mechanics is not good design.

I do agree with you in saying that Rets design is shitty this expac. I hate the arms warrior, colossus smash, mechanic we got with judgement. i honesty didnt think anything was wrong with the way Rets operated in WoD, but we did need was a sustained damage boost and better defensives so we didnt get trained into oblivion like we did in WoD or couldnt do any real damage outside of wings.. But i disagree with you on the role of Ret throughout...Rets pre-legion, as i stated before, were not a high damage spec...we did no damage outside wings and was CC'ed for most of it. Our dps counterparts (Dks and warriors) did way more damage than us. WoD RBGs didnt have many melee spots open and Rets didnt bring any utility that an hpally didnt bring plus nothing better than; dk=grip, warrior=execute, rogue=smokebomb/stealth.

I would also agree with you that Rets, just like many other classes/specs in the game, because of pruning, have been made easy mode. But alongside that, blizz did address Ret weaknesses from WoD to legion...we arent really focused in arena like we used to be, because our defensives are better, and we hit hard outside of wings. Auto bubble isnt really an issue for good rets, the bubble CD reduction is the main focus of it anyway and it was nerfed recently, to make the other talents on that row more appealing (but they arent). Blessing of sanctuary was just a switch from what blessing of sacrifice (Rets no longer had BoS) used to do.

[RelaZ]

I do agree with you in saying that Rets design is shitty this expac. I hate the arms warrior, colossus smash, mechanic we got with judgement. i honesty didnt think anything was wrong with the way Rets operated in WoD, but we did need was a sustained damage boost and better defensives so we didnt get trained into oblivion like we did in WoD or couldnt do any real damage outside of wings.. But i disagree with you on the role of Ret throughout...Rets pre-legion, as i stated before, were not a high damage spec...we did no damage outside wings and was CC'ed for most of it. Our dps counterparts (Dks and warriors) did way more damage than us. WoD RBGs didnt have many melee spots open and Rets didnt bring any utility that an hpally didnt bring plus nothing better than; dk=grip, warrior=execute, rogue=smokebomb/stealth.

I would also agree with you that Rets, just like many other classes/specs in the game, because of pruning, have been made easy mode. But alongside that, blizz did address Ret weaknesses from WoD to legion...we arent really focused in arena like we used to be, because our defensives are better, and we hit hard outside of wings. Auto bubble isnt really an issue for good rets, the bubble CD reduction is the main focus of it anyway and it was nerfed recently, to make the other talents on that row more appealing (but they arent). Blessing of sanctuary was just a switch from what blessing of sacrifice (Rets no longer had BoS) used to do.

So you're basically saying they made Ret damage function differently and that outdoes all the other horrible changes? Really? Also RBGs are about as dead as it gets, so cba talking about RBG viability.

Blessing of Sanctuary is usable while stunned, which makes it completely braindead unlike Sac (sac also only worked on Magic CC and its CD was far longer). And yes, sure the reduced CD of bubble is a large part of that talent, but knowing that you never have to worry about bubbling is much better than people think it is. No CD overlaps, no "oops they nuked more than I expected", no "oops I missclicked" and no "damn, I could've saved it".

Imagine if I Mages auto blocked at 1% instead of having to do it manually. So many times have I seen mages block when my teams damage was already dealt and they would've survived or die without blocking, jk removed - #autoplay.

But that's just Legion I guess, retarded gameplay.

[Omaski]

So you're basically saying they made Ret damage function differently and that outdoes all the other horrible changes? Really? Also RBGs are about as dead as it gets, so cba talking about RBG viability.

Blessing of Sanctuary is usable while stunned, which makes it completely braindead unlike Sac (sac also only worked on Magic CC and its CD was far longer). And yes, sure the reduced CD of bubble is a large part of that talent, but knowing that you never have to worry about bubbling is much better than people think it is. No CD overlaps, no "oops they nuked more than I expected", no "oops I missclicked" and no "damn, I could've saved it".

Imagine if I Mages auto blocked at 1% instead of having to do it manually. So many times have I seen mages block when my teams damage was already dealt and they would've survived or die without blocking, jk removed - #autoplay.

But that's just Legion I guess, retarded gameplay.

well, i would say that all WoW pvp is as dead as it gets atm. Sac had 2 charges with clemency, and since clemency was taken away from rets, the lower CD was added to compensate. True, auto-bubble is brain-dead game-play...auto bubble is the only good talent on that row but that entire row is iffy, if not shitty, imo, but i wouldn't judge whether a spec was brain-dead or high skill cap based off of one ability that is really only used 1-2 in a Bg/arena match.

If mages were given auto block, i wouldn't automatically say that ability alone, dropped mage skill cap from a 10 to a 3 because of it

[RelaZ]

well, i would say that all WoW pvp is as dead as it gets atm. Sac had 2 charges with clemency, and since clemency was taken away from rets, the lower CD was added to compensate. True, auto-bubble is brain-dead game-play...auto bubble is the only good talent on that row but that entire row is iffy, if not shitty, imo, but i wouldn't judge whether a spec was brain-dead or high skill cap based off of one ability that is really only used 1-2 in a Bg/arena match.

If mages were given auto block, i wouldn't automatically say that ability alone, dropped mage skill cap from a 10 to a 3 because of it

Sac had a 2 min cooldown and 2 charges, Sanctuary has a 30sec cd and works on stuns, basically allowin whatever healer to avoid further CC/training and is usable while stunned. I sure know which one I'd take. Also BoP now allows you to attack in it (melee), reducing skillcap further etc etc. Basically, Rets are completely braindead in Legion.

And the niche abilities are what made players stand out, without them specs are nothing but braindead dps bots. So yes, abilities that are only used 1-2 times are the ones that matter (the absolute most), because fucking them up or using them very well makes a big impact. All paladin niche abilities got casualized to the point where it's almost impossible to fail at using them correctly = bad design, braindead spec. But don't worry Rets are not alone in that department in Legion, they're just the poster child for it.

[Explicit Teemo Nudes]

Can't they just hire some top pvp players to get things right? Why haven't they done this already? Or did they already try this?

[mmowin]

By the way...



What???

I am going to link you a picture I used in a different thread:



This is what you call "incredibly balanced".

And you really don't want to know what happens if you switch to the "RBG" tab (ie, Balance: 53%).

Where did you find these stats at? And how accurate are they?

[Deleted]

gouge, garrote, shiv, poisons, find weakness, slice and dice, premeditation, preparation

all important abilities that i used all the time, all abilities that i've had since vanilla except shiv which came in BC

this garbage class isn't even a rogue anymore, it doesn't deserve the name

Don't forget Shadow dance, the spell now is just :,(

[shoegazing]

Don't forget Shadow dance, the spell now is just :,(

"let's take the most exciting ability in the game and turn it into a forgettable button that you just push as part of your rotation" --Celestalon, probably

[Deleted]

"let's take the most exciting ability in the game and turn it into a forgettable button that you just push as part of your rotation" --Celestalon, probably

lol he probably came up with the idea to make it a passive, remember that in the alpha state it was planned to be a passive, thank the lords that they at least didnt go with that route.

[Super Kami Dende]

You think that's some kind of a great "counter"?

I already did. Feel better?

They continue to have a whole team with nothing to show for it in the way of actual work.

Considering I've heard you exclaim you have been unsubbed for like 3 years now, why are you even still on these forums if literally none of these changes will ever affect you.

If you are still this addicted after 3 years, seek help.

[blackblade]

I know the WoW developers cop a lot of flak but I am being completely honest and unironic when I say I have absolutely no idea what the devil Holinka does all day to draw a pay-cheque.

I mean look at the PvP side of things; No new BGs since Mists of frigging Pandaria. Lousy PvP balance that keeps getting worse, not better. A whole lot of hot air about having all these "knobs to turn" while being too damn lazy to do anything but the most token amount with them. Melee absolutely stomping anyone who isn't with nothing but disinterest at best and contempt at worst.

It's clear the man has little joy for his job. The only thing he seems to have any interest with is Arenas which are the powered bones of a dead horse Blizzard just cannot stop trying to hammer away at. (You know your pathetic attempt at an e-Sport is bad when your company has to buy an entire damn network for it to get any airtime.) Anything else is beneath his concern and he has skillfully wiggled his way in to a position that lets him get away with doing the bare minimum while reaping the perks of high level Blizzard job. Rather contemptuous but you can't blame him too much if he gets away with it time and time again.

I just wish Blizzard would switch in someone that actually has some joy and love left for the PvP element of the game but I suspect anyone of any actual talent and drive is working away at whatever is going to eventually replace WoW. Hell knows the game has been left in the hands of the definite B-team for years now.

I don't understand why it's so difficult to reskin and rotate existing BG's to keep things fresh, or even add variants so that every match isn't the same routine experience.

I get that things like the upcoming Brawl feature and the revamped honor system, and things like class-templates would draw a significant portion of dev time, but really queueing up the same handful of BG's again-and-again is just kind of painful. They should draw from HoTS, SC2 and at least have some options in scenery. given that WSG/AB have been virtually unchanged since inception (at least visually) it would be appreciated to get more Twin peaks/Battle for Gilneas style maps.

Though I imagine that's more to do with blizzard's general unwillingness to repurpose existing assets and lack of a dedicated art team for PVP. (or at least lack of a dedicated chunk of time to get PVP-specific assets from the shared art team)

[FelPlague]

are you even serious? just look at spriest that stopped being a CC/support/mobile class losing stun, disarm, fade "freedom", spectral guise, leap of faith to the point Spriests nowdays are a Warcraft 3 tower: standing still and doing damage with literally nothing else to bring to the table but damage and ONE CC button.

btw i will warn you, your signature is WAY too big, so you might want to make it smaller before you get a infraction

[rda]

Where did you find these stats at? And how accurate are they?

The numbers are from arena trackers and they get them from Blizzard via bnet APIs.

[Krusza]

It does strike me as odd that Holinka has reined over WoW PvP since WoD, which was arguably the worst time for PvP until Legion took that crown. Yet he's kept as head of PvP. You'd think they would have moved him by now. Look how fast they moved Jay Wilson after he ruined D3.

I mean look at his original baby: Ashran. Which has the distinction of having gotten WORSE with each hotfix that was meant to fix it and ended up being a win trading PvE fest. Look at his interviews: Always full of misinformation and general stupidity. I hate to say that one man is ruining something, but we know Holinka is ignorant about the very thing he heads, he shows us that every time he opens his mouth.

You're in the same delusion that 90% of PvPers are, that one person designs PvP.

Firing Holinka wouldn't change anything. From their perspective PvP is good, and the game in general is good. All they care about its numbers of people playing, not quality.