Demonic is better in ST than Chaos Blades.

[Svisalith]

Did you really use AMR sims to prove a point regarding talent balance?

Here is a proper sim on Patchwerk without legendaries:



There is a reason Memeonic got its name. Under no plausible circumstances is this going to be anywhere near Chaos Blades in performance on ST. Helm is worth ~10k DPS on ST for Demonic and this doesn't remotely come close to bridging the gap.

----------------



You have several bad 3-3 builds in there but somehow forgot the two strongest ones for single target, one of which uses Demonic


^363s +-0% - Mythic Krosus enrage

You were saying?

[sabot]

You have several bad 3-3 builds in there but somehow forgot the two strongest ones for single target, one of which uses Demonic


^363s +-0% - Mythic Krosus enrage

You were saying?[/QUOTE]

A lot this, it depends on your gear.
I have shitty legendaries still. Helm and belt are used in all specs right now. My demonic 3313333 sims currently at about 670k while 2221311 sims at 690k. So true, at first glance chaos blades is better. However the +/- of demonic is 140k while only 105k for chaos blades. This means

Demonic: 530k - 810k
Chaos Blades: 585k - 795k

So while on average, chaos blades will do more damage, demonic with at least my current gear has the potential to be higher.

Plus: demonic is actually fun

[Adalwolf]

1. AskMrRobots simulations aren't as accurate as Simulationcrafts unfortunately. They are decent, but often off by a few percent (which is several 10.000 dps for hig gear levels)

AMR has been proved to have better stat weights than SimulationCraft. Also, Patchwerk figths don't exist, so why to bother to simulate it?

[aGit]

Patchwerk figths don't exist, so why to bother to simulate it?

Because you can draw your own conclusions from it as long as the test conditions are the same. Simming different encounters would be a pain in the butt.

[Krille]

AMR has been proved to have better stat weights than SimulationCraft. Also, Patchwerk figths don't exist, so why to bother to simulate it?

Generally speaking true.. But in NH melee kinda face patchwerk every fight since there are very few melee mechanics.

[Deleted]

AMR has been proved to have better stat weights than SimulationCraft. Also, Patchwerk figths don't exist, so why to bother to simulate it?

"The world is no laboratory, why test/experiment under those conditions then?" #logic

Simulating patchwerk-style fights is about knowing what rotation/stats/gear is the best/has the highest potantial under optimal circumstances.

Also most unexperienced and/or bad players overestimate how different live fights are from patchwerk situations. A good player is able to maximize his uptime/number of casts to a very high degree. That means the best way to figure out the highest possible DPS on any given fight is very often pretty close to a patchwerk fight.

For the vast, vast majority of fights and classes it is not like 10% of movement time lead to completely different talent or gear choices. It ratherm eans that your DPS will be about 10% lower than simulated on that fight.

So while on average, chaos blades will do more damage, demonic with at least my current gear has the potential to be higher.

With that logic, everyoen should stack as much crit as possible, because, Boy, if all the abilities crit every 100 tries, do the DPS look good!

[Fiftyonred]

Ya ok lol that's why not a single person in the top percentile of Demon Hunter runs Demonic right? Because his one month of Nighthold testing automatically refutes all the facts in front of him. Just because he sucks with Chaos Blades, doesn't make Demonic better.

Got common sense issues or just a tool in general?


Lets just edit for proof: First Demon Hunter with Demonic on Mythic Krosus is 1326th in placement(https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...s=1842&page=13). That's 74th percentile. Looking deeper he's top add damage because his guild's comp was worthless for AoE damage: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...done&target=85

Your really just discussing with yourself at this stage son, as what you are saying makes absolutely no fucking sense. Go hug your mom, the internet is a bad place for you.

[Onaga]

AMR has been proved to have better stat weights than SimulationCraft. Also, Patchwerk figths don't exist, so why to bother to simulate it?

Hahaha, you made me Rofl .. that definately doesnt go for DH, stat weights are personal and simming is the best way to get them. While i like the idea behind AMR they are often very wrong.

[chooi]

No. Assuming comparable gear and equal player skill CB will always outperform Memeonic on pure ST.

Though, it is true that Memeonic is neither shit at ST DPS nor a bad spec to play in most realistic scenarios, esp. with Raddon's, unless you have to min-max for Mythic raids. Memeonic is very consistent, medium-high ST DPS that only increases with each additional target in the fight (assuming Raddon's). It does lack the insane burst of CB + Nem though, obviously.

PS: Don't trust AMR.

[Occar]

PS: Don't trust AMR.

You mean +10% auto attack damage isn't worth 30 ilvls worth of secondaries?

AMR is horrible, especially the canned stat weights. It's funny, I can feed it my gear, and it will suggest (even with proper weights) horrible changes that even when you use its own sims, turn out worse than the gear I normally use.

Also, when you admit that you've lied just for clickbait, what does that say about your actual content?

[VooDsXo]

You have several bad 3-3 builds in there but somehow forgot the two strongest ones for single target, one of which uses Demonic


^363s +-0% - Mythic Krosus enrage

You were saying?

A lot this, it depends on your gear.
I have shitty legendaries still. Helm and belt are used in all specs right now. My demonic 3313333 sims currently at about 670k while 2221311 sims at 690k. So true, at first glance chaos blades is better. However the +/- of demonic is 140k while only 105k for chaos blades. This means

Demonic: 530k - 810k
Chaos Blades: 585k - 795k

So while on average, chaos blades will do more damage, demonic with at least my current gear has the potential to be higher.

Plus: demonic is actually fun

Ok, here is a reality Demonic forces eyebeam on CD to maximize damage output, this is not often the case for any given fight as holding eyebeam for AOE would be a better idea. So while in a perfect patchwerk moment the theoretical maximum could be higher, the spec with consistency > potential will always be better.

[Oracle]

Why has no one even spoken of the statistics page on warcraft logs.



If anyone was going to "discover" that demonic is better ST DPS it's going to be any one of the thousands of theorycrafters that are doing this all the time. Warcraftlogs would show it in the talent break down for bosses as well. Refer to screencap... not once is demonic build shown under any percentile brackets.

[Svisalith]

Ok, here is a reality Demonic forces eyebeam on CD to maximize damage output, this is not often the case for any given fight as holding eyebeam for AOE would be a better idea

If you focus ST the ST is as shown and if you focus adds you outdamage 2-2-2 for add damage and overall damage. There is no performance loss there.

3-3 setups with helm actually gain ST when extra targets are involved because it lowers the eyebeam cooldown by a lot. Eyebeam is a primary ST damage ability, large fury generator and gives meta uptime for that spec so having the cooldown by cut in half because you hit a wave of 4 adds plus the boss with it is a really big deal.

[VooDsXo]

If you focus ST the ST is as shown and if you focus adds you outdamage 2-2-2 for add damage and overall damage. There is no performance loss there.

3-3 setups with helm actually gain ST when extra targets are involved because it lowers the eyebeam cooldown by a lot. Eyebeam is a primary ST damage ability, large fury generator and gives meta uptime for that spec so having the cooldown by cut in half because you hit a wave of 4 adds plus the boss with it is a really big deal.

I think you're lost, not using eyebeam ON CD is a dps loss in any demonic build, any form of multiple targets isn't SINGLE TARGET. So when you understand the relevance of holding a CD for add spawns and single target not being multiple targets I wouldn't respond anymore.

[Svisalith]

not using eyebeam ON CD is a dps loss in any demonic build

Simcraft disagrees and often shows large benefits for holding eyebeam for add spawns even when optimizing for boss damage. More eyebeams = more better. If you can instacast it and have a 41.5 second cooldown OR you can wait 10 seconds, hit a bunch of adds as well and have a 22.5 second cooldown it's optimal to wait the 10 seconds.

any form of multiple targets isn't SINGLE TARGET

I didn't bring up multi-target, the other guy did. Just so happens that it's a strength of 3-3 w/ helm and not a weakness at all

[Deleted]

Doesn't change the fact that chaos blades build beats demonic on any NH boss with similar optimized gear and player skill. Don't you dare mention skorpyron

[Temp name]

Doesn't change the fact that chaos blades build beats demonic on any NH boss with similar optimized gear and player skill. Don't you dare mention skorpyron

Don't talk about about the padding boss! Best boss

[Raiju]

Simcraft disagrees and often shows large benefits for holding eyebeam for add spawns even when optimizing for boss damage. More eyebeams = more better. If you can instacast it and have a 41.5 second cooldown OR you can wait 10 seconds, hit a bunch of adds as well and have a 22.5 second cooldown it's optimal to wait the 10 seconds.



I didn't bring up multi-target, the other guy did. Just so happens that it's a strength of 3-3 w/ helm and not a weakness at all

You first first and only person to mention helm at all in reference to aoe? Without it it's a loss.

[sabot]

So, I keep going back to the gear dependent thing.

We can look at logs and see chaos blades is top damage for fights, sure. However 99% of them have a combination of belt, shoulders, ring. I think we can all agree that the ring has a much higher dps increase for chaos blades then demonic, thus being dumb to play demonic if you have it.

Is there a way to look at logs, but remove all the people that have a certain item, ie. anger. I feel that the logs may show demonic and chaos blades closer then you actually think after this.

[Raiju]

I don't think anyone arguing about what's best cares about intentionally using a suboptimal gearset to make demonic 'closer'. Everyone who doesn't have the ring is hoping to get it, and very soon in 7.2 will likely roll every nethershard ring they can to hope to skew the odds towards it.

There's been proven points in very specific gear that demonic edges out chaos blades ST - but this does NOT make it recommendable. In the vast majority of cases even without the ring it loses. Whether that's an acceptable loss is up to you, what your raid struggles with, etc.

If you raid wants more aoe damage even on fights like krosus and you can meet the dps reqs (as a guild, since otherwise a DH would be expected to carry the bottom on prog) you can take demonic. If you are missing the pure ST, or the burst potential, then chaos blades is a nobrainer. Not sure or nothing applies? Chaos blades is the default.

Anyone mentioning the survival benefits of demonic in a mythic raiding context would concern me greatly as a raidleader, standard DH has more than enough tools to survive a lot better than many other classes can, and the only example of using their niche self healing capability on mythic chrono for ignoring an add is much better served with someone who can interrupt more.