What is Unholy/necromancy?

[Cheapnecrolyte]

"Necrotic" in an unqualified descriptor, however. The Scourge are prototypical undead animated by Shadow and Void type magic, that's beyond contesting. But you also have instances where the Botani, for example, have zombified corpses and returned them to unlife by parasitic infection with invasive Nature magic. You could argue that these shambling husks aren't technically "zombies" in the way a Scourge ghoul or skeleton is - but they meet the definition of a previously dead and inanimate corpse shuffling around and attacking the living. You've also got a case where a Tauren Shaman, Shotoa, was brought into a curious state of undeath by Ragnaros on the occasion of his death by making him a partial fire elemental.

Necromancy, the typical method by which undead are created, is almost universally Shadow magic. But undead beings in WoW can arise from other sources, even from magical essences more typically aligned with "good."

I believe you're misusing or misunderstanding the term necrotic. Necrotic is an adjective applied to things pertaining to the dead. And, as we all should know, nature can pertain to the dead. The dead, as you've pointed out yourself, can be raised into unlife by nature magic and that nature magic can technically be defined as necrotic (pertaining to the dead) because it pertains to the dead. Do you get where I'm going with this or what? Because if you don't, take plague for example. The plague school is a combination of shadow and nature. Nature, or "nature energy", is a part of the plague. It is necrotic when it pertains to the dead and it can (or does) cause people to rot.

Without Shadow (or Void), there wouldn't be any nature or life, and so the Void would be ultimately responsible for death. Shadow can't "always" be necrotic because it didn't (or doesn't) always relate to the dead, but it can be defined as necrotic when it does. Hence, all necrotic magic is shadow magic. Not all shadow magic is necrotic.

What annoys me though is that fel magic is technically an entropic, shadow-related force (or shadow-touched force) and the fel essence of entropic horrors is poisonous. Fel energy would poison the living with a fel sickness or fel contagion that drains life. However, fel isn't treated as an entropic force that brings things to a state of entropic decay and oblivion (a.k.a. death). Fel magic is treated as chaos and chaos, when regarding to in-game, is a multi-school that combines all the forces. It would technically be necrotic. Does necrotic magic not ultimately exist because of Light and Shadow? If anything, necrotic magic is an entropic mixture of the forces of Light, Shadow, Life, and Death. It's basically chaos magic but for living humans instead of living titans. Blizzard's employees are very tricky indeed. They established that the titans of the Pantheon were brought to a state of oblivion by Sargeras' fel storm but fel storm is really a misnomer because fel storms are just fel energies given the appearance of those elements. If fel fire is really an element, warlocks would be using decay to subjugate and weaponize it.

[Rafoel]

You've also got entities like Meryl Winterstorm/Felstorm, a human Mage who somehow resurrected himself and keeps himself alive by apparently purely Arcane means - he's not a Necromancer as he's one of the earliest human mages from the Troll Wars. Shotoa is another being that was killed and somehow unnaturally preserved by Elemental forces - a predicament that twisted his mind and leaves him in constant agony as he is burning from within.

This one certainly is interesting - but how do we know he doesn't use Shadow magic to keep functioning?

- - - Updated - - -

Does necrotic magic not ultimately exist because of Light, Shadow, Life, and Death? If anything, necrotic magic is a combination or mixture of the forces of Light, Shadow, Life, and Death. It's basically chaos magic but for living humans instead of living titans.

Necrotic magic has nothing to do with Light or Life. It is the cold embrace of Void magically transferred into the physical universe. The physical universe consists mostly of Life and Light, and that might create the illusion of necrotic requiring these mediums to function. It doesn't. Undead aren't pure void contructs - they appear when Life is corrupted by Void. Any type of necrotic magic involves forcing Void essence into elements of physical universe.

[Aucald]

This one certainly is interesting - but how do we know he doesn't use Shadow magic to keep functioning?

Canonically speaking we don't, but he was among the first Mages trained by the High Elves and I doubt they would've taught the Human neophytes esoteric disciplines like Shadow and especially Necromancer - they were reluctant to do the basics of Arcane, Fire, and Frost. Meryl could've struck out on his own, of course; but most information concerning him states that his undead status is unlike the Forsaken or the Scourge. He himself only says that he is sustained by his "magic."

[Cheapnecrolyte]

Necrotic magic has nothing to do with Light or Life. It is the cold embrace of Void magically transferred into the physical universe. The physical universe consists mostly of Life and Light, and that might create the illusion of necrotic requiring these mediums to function. It doesn't. Undead aren't pure void contructs - they appear when Life is corrupted by Void. Any type of necrotic magic involves forcing Void essence into elements of physical universe.

This is a lie. The Light is the ultimate source of all life in the universe and there cannot be any dead being if there is no life because the dead are defined as former living beings. Of course necrotic magic has something to do with the Light and Life. Kick rocks fool

[Aucald]

I believe you're misusing or misunderstanding the term necrotic. Necrotic is an adjective applied to things pertaining to the dead. And, as we all should know, nature can pertain to the dead. The dead, as you've pointed out yourself, can be raised into unlife by nature magic and that nature magic can technically be defined as necrotic (pertaining to the dead) because it pertains to the dead. Do you get where I'm going with this or what? Because if you don't, take plague for example. The plague school is a combination of shadow and nature. Nature, or "nature energy", is a part of the plague. It is necrotic when it pertains to the dead and it can (or does) cause people to rot.

Without Shadow (or Void), there wouldn't be any nature or life, and so the Void would be ultimately responsible for life and, by extension, death. Shadow can't "always" be necrotic because it didn't - or doesn't - always relate to the dead, but it can be defined as necrotic when it does. Hence, all necrotic magic is shadow magic. Not all shadow magic is necrotic.

I prefer to see the dichotomy between Light and Shadow/Void magic as one of unity vs. dissolution or disunity. Shadow magic divides things or distances them, whereas the Light brings things together or strengthens their unity. Employed against living beings Shadow magic would, for example, increase the distance between the body and the soul - wracking the victim with pain as they grew closed to the realm of death. A purely physical use might just be rending objects into their component pieces. Light heals by restoring unity, either by decreasing the separation of body and soul or by sealing up purely physical tears in an object.

Necrosis is simply the death of living cells - and Shadow can accomplish that as easily as elemental Flame, mystical Frost, or even directed Arcane energies. The mechanisms are different by the result is typically the same. Shadow creates undead beings by forcing the spirit far enough from the body and mind that the body begins to rot and the will of the victim is blunted, but not so far as to cross the threshold into true death. Nature magic creates undead beings by using living symbiotes or parasitic infection to crudely reanimate dead flesh - creating an automaton that is different from a Necromantically-derived undead being but functionally pretty much the same.

What annoys me though is that fel magic is technically an entropic, shadow-related force (or shadow-touched force) and the fel essence of entropic horrors is poisonous. Fel energy would poisoned the living with a fel sickness or fel contagion that drains life. However, fel isn't treated as treated an entropic force that brings things to a state of entropic decay and oblivion (a.k.a. death). Fel magic is treated as chaos and chaos, when regarding to in-game, is a multi-school that combines all the forces. But what about necrotic magic? Does necrotic magic not ultimately exist because of Light, Shadow, Life, and Death? If anything, necrotic magic is a combination or mixture of the forces of Light, Shadow, Life, and Death. It's basically chaos magic but for living humans instead of living titans. Blizzard's employees are very tricky indeed. They established that the titans of the Pantheon were brought to a state of oblivion by Sargeras' fel storm but fel storm is really a misnomer because fel storms are just fel energies given the appearance of those elements.

Fel magic, as far I understand it, is a highly corrosive and mutative force created by the willful destruction of living essence. I don't know if one would say that Fel is shadow-touched, per se; it is pretty much its own rarefied school of magical energy with a number of unique uses. The mechanism that creates Fel relies on speculation still - is it caused by transforming sacrificed living energy into Fel, or does it arise from the act of destroying life as a byproduct of said act? Fel magic isn't universally entropic, either. There are many cases where the Fel strengthens and fortifies both living and non-living things it encounters. These changes are usually less than positive in terms of a living being's mind or emotional state, but on a purely physical level they can be seen as quite beneficial (e.g. increased musculature, denser bone, increased stature, amplified power, etc. etc.) As a chaotic manifestation of energy I would say that the Fel is less entropic than it is inimical to the substance of the physical universe - it doesn't belong, and so the phenomena associated with it are often noted as "unnnatural" or "poisonous."

The multi-school aspect is more a gameplay element so that Fel damage can pass through ordinary resistances. Fel doesn't consist of all those things itself, but stat-wise is treated as all possible forms of damage so it cannot be protected against (save in very unusual circumstances such as Felbreakers).

[Cheapnecrolyte]

one of unity vs. dissolution or disunity.

Well, that's how I see Order vs. Disorder.

Shadow magic divides things or distances them, whereas the Light brings things together or strengthens their unity. Employed against living beings Shadow magic would, for example, increase the distance between the body and the soul - wracking the victim with pain as they grew closed to the realm of death.

The whole wracking the victim with pain, to me, would merely be a side effect of disease/plague or entropy.

IA purely physical use might just be rending objects into their component pieces.Light heals by restoring unity, either by decreasing the separation of body and soul or by sealing up purely physical tears in an object.

The thing is...the Light, as far as we know, is not some sentient force that inherently heals. The first thing it gave rise to is a dark and vampiric force that is countered by it. And from the clash of Light and Void, living beings ultimately exist. Light may not be directly responsible for death, but ultimately it is, and it can be used to kill.

Necrosis is simply the death of living cells

Necrosis =/= Necrotic.

Shadow can accomplish that as easily as elemental Flame, mystical Frost, or even directed Arcane energies. The mechanisms are different by the result is typically the same. Shadow creates undead beings by forcing the spirit far enough from the body and mind that the body begins to rot and the will of the victim is blunted, but not so far as to cross the threshold into true death

My main issue is that Shadow is treated as Void >.>. Void would be the black hole or formless matter (chaos in most settings) that "consumes" souls, converting those life essences. Shadow energy would just be an energy with the term shadow slapped in front of it.

Nature magic creates undead beings by using living symbiotes or parasitic infection to crudely reanimate dead flesh - creating an automaton that is different from a Necromantically-derived undead being but functionally pretty much the same.

You do know that "energies" can be combined or connected right? If anything, life magic - when regarding to WoW - is created and is just as unnatural as undead because life is something that exists inside living beings and living beings are ultimately creatures created as a result of Light and Void.

Of course, when regarding to real life, energy can't really be created or destroyed. It can be converted.

Fel magic, as far I understand it, is a highly corrosive and mutative force created by the willful destruction of living essence. I don't know if one would say that Fel is shadow-touched, per se;

I would.

It is pretty much its own rarefied school of magical energy with a number of unique uses.

Not really. It has been repeatedly stated that arcane magic is chaotic and, although some people treat it as the force of order, the Chronicle establishes that arcane magic is volatile and that order is most commonly perceived as arcane magic in reality. This means that order is not always perceived as arcane magic. We have the arcane priest from Paragons of the Klaxxi stating that chaos is order unrecognized by a lesser mind. He may not be a paragon of sanity as a priest of an Old God, but given his logic, Sargeras' fel is the primal force of order and necromancy is a school of fel magic

And, by the way, you can't fuel something that doesn't exist unless "that something" is a void that can contain matter and energy. Why fel magic is defined as highly destructive is somewhat an enigma to me because it needs to exist before it is fueled. Prior to being fueled, it would need to exist. The question to be asked and ultimately answered is if it is created and if it's automatically fueled the moment it is created. If it's not automatically fueled the moment it is created, it would just decay over time..VOID ENTROPY OR HEAT DEATH!!! Consume them non-existent shadow orbs you insane shadow priests. Consume the energy of your Old Gods you hungry void lords!

Anyways, shadow magic (as the force of the Void) would need to be fueled just as much as the shadow-related fel does. Why does fel magic need to be fueled anyways? It's not like it's a force with a non-existent stomach lacking energy. It's not a fire either.

The mechanism that creates Fel relies on speculation still - is it caused by transforming sacrificed living energy into Fel, or does it arise from the act of destroying life as a byproduct of said act?

Energy can't really be created in regards to real life and so I'll just stick to how dave kosak would describe it, which is that warlocks convert life into fel. Of course, if fel is something that life is transformed into, I'd state fel is an elemental force since life is an element - at least according to one of Blizzard's novels. That or fel is an entropic and destructive form of nature magic - which death magic is considered to be in most - if not all - fantasy settings.

If warlocks aren't essentially fel shaman who use magic that governs the cosmic systems of the worlds they reside in, who are they? Their iconic ability, Life Tap, is a spell that involves tapping into the same life force (Spirit) that shaman tap into and is clearly stolen from the necromancers of Diablo II. To state a warlock isn't some fel shaman or necromancer who can tap into life, manipulate it into an entropic force that decays, or commune with spirits trapped in their warlock soul crystals is to make warlocks seem lesser or watered-down shamans or necromancers.

Fel magic isn't universally entropic, either.

Fel is entropic. Canon has established more than 2 times that fel is entropic.

There are many cases where the Fel strengthens and fortifies both living and non-living things it encounters.

Umm, you stated that it's highly corrosive as you understand it. It's a destructive power that would destroy structures. It would cause you to become less orderly - tethered to the Burning Legion and, by extension, the Nether. Fel energy is demonic per canon and those infused with it would essentially be demonic creatures or demons tethered to a demon. Ergo, demon hunters whose souls can go to the Nether or Gul'dan who is bound to a demon lord in the Nether. If all souls infused with fel energy don't go to the Nether, do fel-tainted mortal souls and their fel energy go to the Shadowlands?

These changes are usually less than positive in terms of a living being's mind or emotional state, but on a purely physical level they can be seen as quite beneficial (e.g. increased musculature, denser bone, increased stature, amplified power, etc. etc.)

So how is it the highly destructive force of disorder? This energy would destroy structures, breaking them down into the parts that they're constructed of. It would cause the cosmic systems to go haywire. It would transform living beings into fel entities that are owned/possessed/dictated by burning demons from beyond the stars. It would make them chaotic and burn. It would make them hunger for the blood and souls of draenei children.

As a chaotic manifestation of energy I would say that the Fel is less entropic than it is inimical to the substance of the physical universe - it doesn't belong, and so the phenomena associated with it are often noted as "unnnatural" or "poisonous."

Umm...I wouldn't say it doesn't belong. I would say the arcane or order doesn't belong. The titans ordered worlds but the question to be asked is why? Were those worlds disorderly in the first place? Were the elements of those worlds disorderly? If so, why was there no mention of fel magics manifesting in those worlds or affecting those worlds? Why order something that's already ordered? Why consume Spirit, giving rise to chaotic and destructive elementals, order those elementals, then purge worlds of life if the evolutionary paths succumb to disorder? They're like forked-tongued demons who masquerade as benevolent beings. They're rapists, touching their sleeping baby relatives and violating nature, imposing their own order upon the naturally chaotic elements.

Edit: Sorry that I'm delving slightly off topic.

[vondevon]

If all souls infused with fel energy don't go to the Nether, do fel-tainted mortal souls and their fel energy go to the Shadowlands?

Think of Fel like a combustion reaction where the reactants are other magics, particularly Life Energy. It is consumed/converted into Fel, which has many varied applications. However, because the inherent nature of Fel is like a wild flame that consumes Life, using it to empower living flesh always comes at a steep price to the wielder.

I suspect that most souls who tamper with Fel, when they die, are simply left to burn out - the latent Fel within them consuming their being and soul. Only those few who attract the attention of Sargeras, or those who have infused enough Fel into their soul to become demonic, are summoned to the Nether.

[Wildmoon]

I don't think we should confuse the sources of magic and their effects. You may be able to raise or animate the dead with power drawn from more than one source of magic. The same thing goes for something like manipulating life energy like transferring life force from one source for other uses. You can do that with Fel,Druidism and problably more.

[huth]

You could probably use any source of magic to animate the dead, just in different ways. Both Arcane and Fel can be used to create golems, no reason you couldn't use corpses as raw material.

3) There isn't anything to debate here to me. The CHRONICLE establishes that the physical universe and the undead ultimately exist because of Light and Void - not me. These fundamental forces would obviously be worked into everything in the physical universe, including undead. As such, necrotic magic (the magic of the dead) is technically shadow magic and you're just some nut who'd infer that evidence doesn't matter to me based on the faulty belief that I'm not using Blizzard's own information to prove that I'm technically correct.

The Chronicle establishes that it was created from a clash of Light and Void. Not that it is one of them. In fact, it did the exact opposite and established it as a seperate power.

Not all necrotic magic is shadow magic. Especially not resurrection spells. For that matter, any magic from the Death sphere cannot be pure Void based, since that would mean it's from the Void sphere instead. There has to be at least a smidgen of Light in it.

[Aleax]

From Chronicle Vol. 1.

Interesting. So these are the domains of WoW. Why not. Titans and arcana are on the same boat, looks like an evidence that this game is wizard/arcane centric...us paladins get the Naaru instead this is not fair.

[chr2]

Necromancy/unholy is ultimately based on the Light.

This comment was brought to you by Rainforest's logic.

[Cheapnecrolyte]

Necromancy/unholy is ultimately based on the Light..

I doubt you even understand the definitions of necromancy. Also:

http://wow.gamepedia.com/Val%27kyr#/...e%3AEyirHD.png

The practice of communicating with, or divining information from, holy Light-based Val'kyr isn't necromancy even though Val'kyr are undead.

This comment has been brought to you by chr-who-now?

[chr2]

I doubt you even understand the definitions of necromancy. Also:

http://wow.gamepedia.com/Val%27kyr#/...e%3AEyirHD.png

The practice of communicating with, or divining information from, holy Light-based Val'kyr isn't necromancy even though Val'kyr are undead.

This comment has been brought to you by chr-who-now?

My point

_____________

Your head


You keep trying to argue that the Void is the source of everything; which it is, partially. I'm just saying that, using that very same logic, one could just as easily claim that everything is based on the Light. Going back to your previous comments and replacing every instance of the word "Void" or "Shadow" with "Light" you'd basically get the exact same statement.. The physical universe wasn't created by the Void alone buddy.

[Lyssander]

I think, that cosmic chart has all the forces right - titans ARE close to void, and demons ARE close to light. The chart just depicts the cosmic forces by their change potential: The Light of creation with the maximum potential, life and chaos with high potential, order and death with low potential and void with the minimum of potential change.
Life magic and demon magic both offer great biological change (evolution/mutation) as well as environmental change (natural environments and twisting nether both are in constant change). Order and death have much lower potential for change, creatures made by these forces tend to be set in their ways, offer limited ways of acting (titans unable to comprehend demon evil/undead have limited emotions and titans make obedient machines/necromancers make obedient zombies). Void basically represents the lowest possible change - the goal of the Void Lords is basically the heat death of the universe.

[Gamer8585]

I think, that cosmic chart has all the forces right - titans ARE close to void, and demons ARE close to light. The chart just depicts the cosmic forces by their change potential: The Light of creation with the maximum potential, life and chaos with high potential, order and death with low potential and void with the minimum of potential change.
Life magic and demon magic both offer great biological change (evolution/mutation) as well as environmental change (natural environments and twisting nether both are in constant change). Order and death have much lower potential for change, creatures made by these forces tend to be set in their ways, offer limited ways of acting (titans unable to comprehend demon evil/undead have limited emotions and titans make obedient machines/necromancers make obedient zombies). Void basically represents the lowest possible change - the goal of the Void Lords is basically the heat death of the universe.

I think you just won the thread. Gratz.

[Wildmoon]

I think, that cosmic chart has all the forces right - titans ARE close to void, and demons ARE close to light. The chart just depicts the cosmic forces by their change potential: The Light of creation with the maximum potential, life and chaos with high potential, order and death with low potential and void with the minimum of potential change.
Life magic and demon magic both offer great biological change (evolution/mutation) as well as environmental change (natural environments and twisting nether both are in constant change). Order and death have much lower potential for change, creatures made by these forces tend to be set in their ways, offer limited ways of acting (titans unable to comprehend demon evil/undead have limited emotions and titans make obedient machines/necromancers make obedient zombies). Void basically represents the lowest possible change - the goal of the Void Lords is basically the heat death of the universe.

That's an interesting way to look at the chart.

[Evilmoo]

I think that there are multiple ways of achieving Necromancy. Say, for instance, Troll Voodoo, which is based in Nature magic. Then you have instances of fel power raising the dead in the hands of the Dreadlords, the Lich King using corrupted Val'Kyr, beings of Light made Shadow, to make his minions, and even ARCANE necromancy where Medivh creates Nightbane.

The Troll Voodoo is not necromancy per se, they are not reviving dead, they are asking Loa to inhabit a dead body and if loa answers (sends faction of his power) than the body is reanimated but as long as Voodoo goes if the channeling / concentration / ritual is interrupted the body is "offline" and they have very low level of independence, while in case of Fel / void necromancy they are LITERALLY dead persons reanimated with the SAME spirit and they are pretty much same persons but much more angry and violent and generally despicable.

[Deleted]

I think the Chronicle domain chart has been misanderstood by the community, which has a tendency to see everything in "rock-paper-scissor" terms.
For what I can see the fondamental powers shown they are not related to the ones next to them, but only to their opposite. Death is no related to the Void or Fel, but only opposed to Life. It's also not a "what counters what" chart, but simply a representaion of the opposing forces in the physical universe. For example, Life and Death does not "counter" each other, they are merely the opposed mirrored image of the other one.
Next to every fondamental force there is an example of its users in the physical universe.

In the specific case of necromantic magic, I think that true necromantic magic (the one Chronicles talks about) is the one used by the Scourge, meaning the magic energies used to resurrecting the dead (NOT bringing them back to life), defiling things, blood magic and so on. While it may have some relation to Shadow magic, it's an compeltely different domain, and different users may tap into it for different uses and different results.

[bufferunderrun]

From Chronicle Vol. 1.

every time i look at that image i wonder if there are some supreme powers on par with the legion and the titan that represent the death and life, currently we have the Lich King and the Wild Gods to represent them but they feel way less powerful than Titans and Legions.

(also shadowlands :P )

[Selastan]

every time i look at that image i wonder if there are some supreme powers on par with the legion and the titan that represent the death and life, currently we have the Lich King and the Wild Gods to represent them but they feel way less powerful than Titans and Legions.

(also shadowlands :P )

There are mysteries still left in the cosmos. Like Murmur, who at full strength is easily Titan-level. I'm also researching a theory that so far doesn't have any holes, Ner'Zhul might not have been the first Lich King. I think he was a cosmic level entity brought down by the Legion, Ner'Zhul was Kil'Jaedin's attempt at harnessing his power.