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  1. #61
    From Scotland and like most people i know, i don't see the point in leaving the uk and swapping it with the EU...that isn't independence, and i can't see the EU as being beneficial to most people, the way the pro EU peeps go on about it, it has nothing to do with the people and everything to do with where the rich have their money invested and the effect it will have on them leaving the EU.

  2. #62
    Great, here we go again..

    Nicola Sturgeon said the first Referendum was suppose to be a 'Once-In-A-Generation', it's been a few years.
    No Referendum has been announced, all that has been put forward is a renegotiation for Scotland's powers for Trade with the EU. (EU won't have this)
    The EU do not want Scotland, it said it's going to remain at 27 States. So how does Scotland plan on joining the EU?
    For most of the 'For Leaving', it was simply about Nationalism which is ridiculous in Scotland, I've seen it for nearly 3 decades, absolutely unwarranted, unnecessary and ridiculus behaviour by Scottish people, as young as 3 to call someone from England all sorts of (extremely) graphical names. It's taught hate, over football. Sporting, Scotland has the worse Sports that mimics other countries national leagues. Their Football (Soccer) Premier league is ripe with violence. Many people like me avoid their football for fear of our lives as a fans. Back to the point, most voters for leaving the UK aren't interested in the facts, just some overly hyped film which had been butchered and rewritten so many times it was converted to a propaganda film. You should read the actual story of William Wallace.
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  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Puremallace View Post
    Better wording would be if she goes down to the anti immigrant party in Germany. Either way the markets see Merkel as an extremely strong figure in Europe and her getting defeated would send shockwaves.
    I don't think so. To me (as a German) the outcome in France and Netherlands seems much more important. Merkel might lose to Schulz but a coalition of the two main parties (conservatives + social democrats) seems likely. The only thing that could happen is Schulz getting elected as chancelor. He's still a majour EU advocate just more focused on social internals of Germany. He would be light years away from Wilders and Le Pen so it's rather unimportant if Merkel won't be reelected. Wilders and Le Pen have the potential to destroy the EU. Also in Poland strange things happen....

    People have to as kthemselves do they want to maintain their wealth or not. Sure the EU needs majours reforms but destroying it for emotional populisitc reasons serves noone.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fleuria View Post
    I mean how would Scotland ever be able to balance the books given the only legitimate trade they have in Oil is down 50% from 2014.
    Doesn't the whisky industry pay several billion in excise duty a year to the UK treasury? That would presumably stay in Scotland should independence happen.
    I don't know the recipe for success, but I know that the recipe for failure is trying to please everyone.

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  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by allatar View Post
    Doesn't the whisky industry pay several billion in excise duty a year to the UK treasury? That would presumably stay in Scotland should independence happen.
    Nope, it's tax of the bottle set by the Government of a country, in the UK it's 75 or 77% in a country like Spain it is 41%.

    It would just mean Scotland would then have to tax on what ever was sold in Scotland instead and then the rest of the UK would still get what ever was being sold in England/Wales/NI.
    Last edited by Fleuria; 2017-03-13 at 04:06 PM.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fleuria View Post
    Nope, it's tax of the bottle set by the Government of a country, in the UK it's 75 or 77% in a country like Spain it is 41%.

    It would just mean Scotland would then have to tax on what ever was sold in Scotland instead and then the rest of the UK would still get what ever was being sold in England/Wales/NI.
    I meant Spirits Duty, my bad. That is actually paid at the point of manufacture before it goes into a bottle.
    I don't know the recipe for success, but I know that the recipe for failure is trying to please everyone.

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  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valerean View Post
    With oil trading at circa 50% of what it was in 2014, the UK coming out of the EU as a whole and an independent Scotland facing having to apply for membership from scratch, Wee Crankie is asking her compatriots for a lot more than Mr Salmond did last time.
    Except, you know, none of this is true.

    1) Oil prices have been rising, and the Scottish economy isn't dependent upon it. This is obvious when you remember that the Scottish economy, as the oil revenues crashed, catastrophically, disastrously, and horribly collapsed by... 1%. Oil prices going down are bad for that sector, but good for other parts of the economy; it balances out.

    2) Scotland would NOT have to apply for EU membership from scratch. This has been thoroughly debunked so many times, it's remarkable that people still cough it up. There's just no excuse, at all, for not knowing that this is utter nonsense.

    As @Tommo mentioned, this should be a thread where the democratic pros and cons are discussed; not the usual spreading of utter rubbish masquerading as serious considerations.

    Scotland voted to stay in the United Kingdom, but it also (by higher percentage and majority) voted to stay in the European Union. There is only one way out of this constitutional contradiction; giving the people of Scotland another vote when they know what Brexit is going to look like.

    That's exactly what the First Minister announced today.

    This time... I suspect the result will be different. And I, for one, can't wait.

  8. #68
    The majority of Scottish people don't want the referendum.

  9. #69
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Elba View Post
    Scotland is an independent country, not a federal state.
    LOL no, an independent country having an independence referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by Elba View Post
    The Anglo empire crumbling even further would be a joy. I hope Northern Ireland rejoins Ireland too.
    Oh, you just hate the English. It's a weird thing with the Scots, Scotland was backward and totally bankrupt after it's failed attempt at colonisation (just read about it if you want a a long laugh at how bad they were - one of the rescue ships they sent got pirated by it's own captain who became a slave runner). Then it joined with England - we bailed Scotland, Scotland gained access to all our colonies for nothing and became sucessful

    And some of the Scottish people have never forgiven us for it.

    Scotland was not only part of the "Anglo Empire" it played a major part in creating and running it. Look at the vast number of Scots who emigrated to the colonies (can't blame them for wanting to leave I guess) and lots of the most successful colonila governers were Scottish.

    Scottish nationalism is allabout amassive chip on the shoulder, resentment and an inferiority complex brough about by knowing that England will always be bigger and stronger.

    Last year would have been the first year of independence. Itwold have been the first year of bankruptcy (again) because the SNP depended on at least £5 billion from oil. Last year it was 99% lower than that. This year the oil industry has created a loss.

    Only the Scots could get a chque for £15 billion, have their own Parliament, free prescriptions, elderly care, university tuition and baby boxes that the English do not get and stillcomplain Scotlan dis hard done by and abused by you guessed it England

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Aviemore View Post
    2) Scotland would NOT have to apply for EU membership from scratch. This has been thoroughly debunked so many times, it's remarkable that people still cough it up. There's just no excuse, at all, for not knowing that this is utter nonsense.
    Yes it would. Brussels has even released a statement today saying that Scotland would have to renegotiate from scratch as it would be treated as a new state. It wouldn't get the rebates UK currently does, it would have it's fishing industry hampered more so than it is, and it would DEFINITELY have to adopt the Euro.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviemore View Post
    Scotland voted to stay in the United Kingdom, but it also (by higher percentage and majority) voted to stay in the European Union.
    NO. Only about 2/3 of the amount of people that voted in the Scottish referendum voted in the EU referendum. Almost as many people voted "NO" in the Scottish referendum than voted in the WHOLE of EU referendum.

    The EU isn't some perfect paradise of fair trade that will be around for ever. Even Junker admits that the EU is going to have serious difficulties ahead - especially with countries inevitably leaving the Eurozone. Without any final decision on Brexit and what that means, and without a real view of what the EU is going to become over the next 5-10 years, calling for a referendum now is both dangerous and STUPID AS HELL.

    Sturgeon seems quite happy to take the risk and damn the entire country if it can get her more power.
    BASIC CAMPFIRE for WARCHIEF UK Prime Minister!

  11. #71
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Aviemore View Post
    Except, you know, none of this is true.

    1) Oil prices have been rising, and the Scottish economy isn't dependent upon it. This is obvious when you remember that the Scottish economy, as the oil revenues crashed, catastrophically, disastrously, and horribly collapsed by... 1%. Oil prices going down are bad for that sector, but good for other parts of the economy; it balances out.

    2) Scotland would NOT have to apply for EU membership from scratch. This has been thoroughly debunked so many times, it's remarkable that people still cough it up. There's just no excuse, at all, for not knowing that this is utter nonsense.

    As @Tommo mentioned, this should be a thread where the democratic pros and cons are discussed; not the usual spreading of utter rubbish masquerading as serious considerations.

    Scotland voted to stay in the United Kingdom, but it also (by higher percentage and majority) voted to stay in the European Union. There is only one way out of this constitutional contradiction; giving the people of Scotland another vote when they know what Brexit is going to look like.

    That's exactly what the First Minister announced today.

    This time... I suspect the result will be different. And I, for one, can't wait.
    LOLyou see this is the kind of frightening ignorance at the heart of Scottish nationlism.

    1. Oil prices are still less than half of what they were in 2014. North Sea oil is extremely expensive to extract and not worth it at $50 a barrel. As to your 1%. Mate....revenues have not fallen by 1%. They have fallen to 1%. That's right, they have fallen by 99%. From £5 billion to £50 million. Last year. This year, the oil industry has made aloss to the Treasury, it has cost the UK £250m to keep it going. The SNP openly stated in their "plan" that "oil is just a bonus", but their own economic adviser Andrew Wilson publicly revealed last week that the plan did depend on oil and made no provision for what happened without that money.

    2. Scotland does have to apply from scratch. The European Commission officially told the Scottish Government that twice in 2014.It's stillon the SG's own website. If you're independent, you're not part of the UK anymore, therefore not part of a Member State anymore, therefore you have to petition to join the Eu as an independent country (gettit? lol). Which means joining the queue, creating your own currency and central bank, signingup to the euro and Schengen and all the other 27 countries have to approve membership unanimously

    Lastly, how can people know what Brexit will look like when the SNP want them to vote six months before it happens? (Of course that's why they want the vote early, cos Brexit will be OK and the SNP will be shown to be talking mince as usual)

    Seriously, get yourself informed properly instead of believing garbage you read on Wings Over Scotland.

  12. #72
    Here we fucking go again. Whilst I have some sympathy, it has been confirmed beyond all doubt that the democratic will of Scotland means nothing in the UK, the problem is, will there be an EU in 10 years time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Gelannerai View Post


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  13. #73
    The changes to the 2004 Hunting Act will allow farmers to use packs of dogs to flush out foxes, protect livestock and game birds and hunt wounded wild mammals.

    Nicola Sturgeon She said: “This has thrown a debate onto Scotland’s foxhunting law. What the Conservative government are saying is that they are simply bringing the English law into line with the Scottish law but a lot of people in Scotland think shouldn’t we be tightening up our law and bringing it in line to England. “Inevitably there will now be a look at the Scottish law and what we will be looking at is whether the current English law is actually better and there is then an interest for us in the English law staying as it is.”
    This was 2014/2015....

    And Still no changes to fox hunting in Scotland, that alone is one example of many of the SNP not actually governing Scotland, nothing changes, nothing meaningful done, I mean its like UKIP, if they did vote "yes" and leave, what exactly would the SNP stand for? its sole objective done.

    if they want it, by all means go and good luck, I for one won't miss these Neverendums...

  14. #74
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by tehealadin View Post
    Here we fucking go again. Whilst I have some sympathy, it has been confirmed beyond all doubt that the democratic will of Scotland means nothing in the UK, the problem is, will there be an EU in 10 years time?
    The "democratic wil lof Scotland" doe smean something. Being outvoted democratically by more people is not the same as being ignored.

    Let me ask: if in a independence referendum Scotland as a whole votes for independence but lets say Orkney and Shetland don't...what would the SNP do?

    Cancel independence?Or "ignore the democratic will" of Shetland and Orkney and do it anyway based on Scotland leaving the Uk based on an all-Scotland vote with one person, one vote, saying there's no veto and it woul dbe unfair for the populations of small dissenting regions over-riding everyone else?

    Let me guess.....

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Puremallace View Post
    Source: http://www.cnbc.com/2017/03/13/scotl...to-brexit.html

    Over under on this? UK did make a lot of promises to Scotland that got them to stay and now they are trying to pull out of the Euro. This would hammer the Scottish economy. Xenophobia in the UK has already cost them billions and gutted the value of the pound. It is going to get much worse once the EU starts bleeding the UK.
    As an American, I support the Scots throwing off the shackles of their English over lords. Let us know if you need some guns. We have three for every citizen, but most only have two hands.

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Nebiroth99 View Post
    The "democratic wil lof Scotland" doe smean something. Being outvoted democratically by more people is not the same as being ignored.

    Let me ask: if in a independence referendum Scotland as a whole votes for independence but lets say Orkney and Shetland don't...what would the SNP do?

    Cancel independence?Or "ignore the democratic will" of Shetland and Orkney and do it anyway based on Scotland leaving the Uk based on an all-Scotland vote with one person, one vote, saying there's no veto and it woul dbe unfair for the populations of small dissenting regions over-riding everyone else?

    Let me guess.....
    Apples and oranges- comparing regions in a nation to nations isn't the same. And no, Scotland and England aren't regions in the same way that Orkney is.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gelannerai View Post


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  17. #77
    Deleted
    Isn't the pound still stronger than the EURO, which has been dropping at a much more significant rate than the Dollar, GBP?

    I'm not sure if it's wise to attach yourself to a sinking ship just because yours just caught a little leak.
    Last edited by mmocbf3af6dcb2; 2017-03-13 at 08:15 PM.

  18. #78
    Deleted
    Scotland almost certainly put the conservatives back in charge at the last election by scaring a significant number (8% according to polls, that's huge) of floating voters into voting Tory to preserve the union.

    I can't wait to see the back of the bastards. I wish we could have a vote to kick the selfish parochial pricks out.

    Not often I agree with Teresa May but she hit the nail on the head when she described the SNP as tunnel-visioned. Just fuck off already.

  19. #79
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by tehealadin View Post
    Apples and oranges- comparing regions in a nation to nations isn't the same. And no, Scotland and England aren't regions in the same way that Orkney is.
    Yes they are. Scotland is a nation historically and by convention. England and Scotland were abolished as sovereign nations with the Act of Union.

    It's a typical answer "we're different because we are a COUNTRY"

    It's nonsense. For allpractical purposes Scotland is a region of the UK. It's certainly how the EU classifies it.

    Moreover, the Shetland and Orkney separatist movements would strongly disagree with you. You'd deny the "will of their people" by saying "you're not a nation so you don't count"?

    "Scotland is a country" is really just a meaningless label. Countries are countries because people call them that. Scotland has none of the defining attributes of a sovereign nation.

    Wessex used to be nation too, but it's a region of the UK just like Scotland is.
    Last edited by mmoc7a6bdbfc72; 2017-03-13 at 08:17 PM.

  20. #80
    Man, it hasn't even been a day yet and already the thread is full of the same misinformation from last time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I find it ridiculous. The referendum on Brexit was announced well in advance of the Scottish independence referendum taking place. The rational decision would have been to postpone the Scottish independence referendum until after the Brexit referendum had taken place.
    This is just factually incorrect. The Conservatives put it in their 2015 manifesto (which comes after 2014) and even then it wasn't a guarantee they'd win.

    Quote Originally Posted by gypsybob View Post
    The SNP lost their majority in the Scottish parliament, they have very little right to do this. Ruth Davidson is soaring in popularity because she's he only one who stands up the the Nationalists.
    They're the largest party, had it in their manifesto and along with the Greens, there's an independence majority in Holyrood. Ruth Davidson is only popular because she's focusing on Unionism and less on actually coming up with useful policies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Natureapex View Post
    UK, on the sheer irony that the Shetlands are the ones who secure UK North Sea Oil
    Not according to UNCLOS.

    Quote Originally Posted by tehealadin View Post
    Here we fucking go again. Whilst I have some sympathy, it has been confirmed beyond all doubt that the democratic will of Scotland means nothing in the UK, the problem is, will there be an EU in 10 years time?
    Ikr? It would have been nice if we'd maybe had a year or two without a campaign :s EU thing's a good point and I dunno. I feel like the EU will be fine but even if worst came to worst and the EU did disband, I'm sure it wouldn't be long until a Nordic+Benelux (and Germany) Union popped up.

    Quote Originally Posted by advanta View Post
    Scotland almost certainly put the conservatives back in charge at the last election by scaring a significant number (8% according to polls, that's huge) of floating voters into voting Tory to preserve the union.
    Yeah sure, Scotland should just continue voting for feckless layabouts just because they wear a red rosette and not pick people who might stand up for Scotland. Wouldn't want to scare people in England with our Scottishness now would we.

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