WoW became a horrible boring grindfest

[BananaHandsB]

wow this is just another "I am a baby QQ give me loots without having to do anything" have you not played an mmo before?

The complaint is not about getting free loots. Nice strawman. The complaint is there is far too much mindless grinding linked directly to player power. Largely in the form of AP and legendaries, and, to a lesser extent, titanforging. Sure grinds can exist to some extent, but they shouldn't completely eclipse activities that require a higher level of skill (and time commitment) in terms of player power development. Having to work for gear is good, if it means actually doing something enjoyable and not just mindless grinding the same boring content that's been out since launch (WQs/Maw runs/etc). Linking player power so strongly to these mindless, repetitive, skill-lacking activities is the problem.

[Sim]

WoD: Wahhhhh! There is nothing to do!! This game sucks, I want a reason to leave my garrison!

Legion: Wahhhh! There is too much to do!! This game sucks, I hate this endless grinding of things!

Deveopers: -_-;;

[Kantoro]

like aion you mean. played that too & got my cleric to max level.
...next.

No. I mean a real korean MMO. 2 Moons and the like. Aion, pfft. Many korean MMOs have no such thing as quests, you just endlessly kill monsters and gain levels.

[Mhorrigan]

I really like this x-pac, think its lots do to..wheter its wq, solo old content, achievments, pvp lvl alts and so on

[Grimnakh]

like aion you mean. played that too & got my cleric to max level.
...next.

What did you do after max level?

[IceMan1763]

WoD: Wahhhhh! There is nothing to do!! This game sucks, I want a reason to leave my garrison!

Legion: Wahhhh! There is too much to do!! This game sucks, I hate this endless grinding of things!

Deveopers: -_-;;

Or those are two completely different groups of people and WOW devs are infamously bad at finding a healthy middle ground.

Also, perhaps the players want ACTUAL CONTENT, not cheap systems that force you to repeat the same content endlessly.

[Monzsterr]

All I take away from this conversation is that people don't agree on what "grind" means.

If you are only now just getting 54 traits now you have not been grinding. Or at least, so says I.
Getting a mythic 15 is not a grind, maybe more of a chore but something you do once per week doesn't really count as a grind. Or at least, so says I.
Weekend events are not a grind, or at least so says I.
LFR is not a grind. In fact, I haven't even done a single lfr this xpac. Doing mythic raiding it's totally obsolete. At least, So say I.

It was a relief getting 54 traits on my main spec. But that was months ago, I don't think anything since then felt like a grind. But look at me go, talking about feelings of grinding rather than actually getting down to what a grind actually is.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Or those are two completely different groups of people and WOW devs are infamously bad at finding a healthy middle ground.

Also, perhaps the players want ACTUAL CONTENT, not cheap systems that force you to repeat the same content endlessly.

god this again define "actual content" should they come out with a new raid or dungeon every week cause you have the intention span of a flea?

[Kourvith]

The mmorpg genre has just forgot to evolve with time. Let's not forget that the initial appeal was :
- seamless exploration
- spontaneous player encounters

But then, other games did that as well (if not better), magic faded out. Meanwhile, the core mechanic of massive multiplayer gaming, aka allowing everyone to experience the exact same thing at any time, progressively showed its ugly face :
Repetition. Routine. Scripts. Rinse & repeats.

Imo, the only thing that can save MMOs would be integrating true social AIs. Like this one, (in a refined, proper videogame version of course), tailored into each NPC.

[Acidbaron]

To add content that last a while you need to add grinds in mmo's, it's as simple as that.

There are a few mmo's on the horizon that again try to break the mould we'll see how well they do, they also seems to be mostly aimed at open PvP, what some still heavily dislike (despite mmo's were always about not being able to control your gameplay fully and others able to influence it), limited time is also a factor these days, i tried mythic raiding again and it was fun for a while, but after some time it got annoying, especially if you know you have a schedule to keep outside of gaming, work to factor in and just the idea of "you must do this every week!", basically homework for adults in games it gets rather tiresome.

I think WoW does it well as far as mmo's go but at the end of the day it's just a themepark mmo from so many years ago and there are only so many things you can do with it within that given frame.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

The mmorpg genre has just forgot to evolve with time. Let's not forget that the initial appeal was :
- seamless exploration
- spontaneous player encounters

But then, other games did that as well (if not better), magic faded out. Meanwhile, the core mechanic of massive multiplayer gaming, aka allowing everyone to experience the exact same thing at any time, progressively showed its ugly face :
Repetition. Routine. Scripts. Rinse & repeats.

Imo, the only thing that can save MMOs would be integrating true social AIs. Like this one, (in a refined, proper videogame version of course), tailored into each NPC.

other mmo's have evolved but still gone under. swtor evolved to be alot more story focus but when the story was done people left. guild wars evolved to be more exploration focused and it kinda worked as but its still not at great levels even without ever needing a sub.

[Deverick]

As someone who has played at all points of the spectrum(casual to mythic). I find this expansion has its highs and lows.

Highs:

Casual-friendly: As someone who is not in a committed raid team, I find it extremely easy to jump in and do whatever content I feel like doing be it normal/heroic raids or mythic+.

Content Flow: Imo this has been one of the better paced expacs with regard to content. There is plenty to do although it may feel like a grind to some. Raids are coming out in a good fashion.

Lows:

Legendary System: Honestly as a past mythic raider, I can only imagine how frustrating the system is. When you get Bis legendaries it's a great feeling; however, that being said getting a legendary that has no throughput increase is horrible.

Alts: As someone who constantly likes to switch it up, it sucks to get followers levelled/geared, order hall perks (vastly improved with 7.1.5). Sucks to be gated behind certain reps that I've done with other characters.

All in all, I've really enjoyed the legion experience it has a few drawbacks but they don't necessarily effect everyone equally. I think for the first time since BC I'll stay subbed the whole time.

[Rogalicus]

"Guy 1: Man, Holocaust sure was fucking insane, killing all those people in mere years.
Guy 2: That's real life for ya, if you can't handle it, you should kill yourself.
Guy 3: Dunno what's so bad about it, jews always were dying in droves.
Guy 1 -> Guy 3: Yeah, I know, people die every year, that's alright. I was talking about mass killings due to order of some insane moustache guy.
Guy 3 -> Guy 1: Have you read the Bible? Remember what Pharaoh did to them and then Moses had to lead them around for forty years? Now that's bad, Hitler is an angel in comparison.
Guy 4: Jews are vocal minority anyway, they had it coming for them."

This thread in a nutshell.

[Deleted]

"Guy 1: Man, Holocaust sure was fucking insane, killing all those people in mere years.
Guy 2: That's real life for ya, if you can't handle it, you should kill yourself.
Guy 3: Dunno what's so bad about it, jews always were dying in droves.
Guy 1 -> Guy 3: Yeah, I know, people die every year, that's alright. I was talking about mass killings due to order of some insane moustache guy.
Guy 3 -> Guy 1: Have you read the Bible? Remember what Pharaoh did to them and then Moses had to lead them around for forty years? Now that's bad, Hitler is an angel in comparison.
Guy 4: Jews are vocal minority anyway, they had it coming for them."

This thread in a nutshell.

Godwin's Law strikes again.

[Rogalicus]

Godwin's Law strikes again.

It's not my fault people need overexaggerations and nazis to understand the point, blame education.

[Deleted]

It's not my fault people need overexaggerations and nazis to understand the point, blame education.

Godwin's Law strikes again.

[hulkgor]

as i already said, that will ofc always be the case. learning and outgearing etc do the rest. but that does not mean that the comtent should be stupid easy brainless aoe grind from the first time you meet that content.

its a whole difference when things BECOME grindy and when things ARE grindy in the first place.

ps: do ppl even read threads these days or just put in some quick statement without being interested in the discussion ? bc ppl ask or say 5 times the same thing that a) others wrote exactly the same and b) aks OP that have already answered the same fukin thing twice or 3 times. my statement: read the fukin thread or just dont post.

nobody needs that shitty "jumpin in, pooping out my oppinion and leave" behaviour.

Sure, i'll just spend 15m reading the entirety of the previous 5 pages when most of the answers or discussion is bashful or silly, and then refresh the thread every 2m for the rest of the evening to keep up with the argument? Makes more sense.

Also, that's exactly what public boards are for, popping in, saying my peace, and fucking off after.

[Deleted]

god this again define "actual content" should they come out with a new raid or dungeon every week cause you have the intention span of a flea?

Actual content = new dungeons, areas, raids, quests, etc
Not actual content = making you grind hundreds of times the content above in order to be competitive (and before you say that only mythic raider need to, that's not the case due to the requirement creep needed to join trivial content groups).

There wasn't enough content in WoD (only like 8 dungeons or so and 3 raids, which is way less that what blizzard used to develop in previous expansions) but overall it is ok to run of stuff to do (then you can go play other game while waiting for new stuff to be released).

Pacing is also a thing, when you make 99 % of the game so easy and short people can complete it in a heartbeat, you're bound to have issues. If vanilla and TBC were so successful in that regard, it's because you always had (read : new dungeons/raids you didn't set foot in yet) something more to do, the common complaint back in the day was even that content was released too fast for most people to complete the previous content before reaching the new one.

Currently blizzard is following the horrible design of FFXIV (imo) where everything baring the end game raid in savage/mythic is faceroll easy and in order to try to keep players in the game (it doesn't work that well) makes you grind that easy content a very large amount of time.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Actual content = new dungeons, areas, raids, quests, etc
Not actual content = making you grind hundreds of times the content above in order to be competitive (and before you say that only mythic raider need to, that's not the case due to the requirement creep needed to join trivial content groups).

There wasn't enough content in WoD (only like 8 dungeons or so and 3 raids, which is way less that what blizzard used to develop in previous expansions) but overall it is ok to run of stuff to do (then you can go play other game while waiting for new stuff to be released).

Pacing is also a thing, when you make 99 % of the game so easy and short people can complete it in a heartbeat, you're bound to have issues. If vanilla and TBC were so successful in that regard, it's because you always had (read : new dungeons/raids you didn't set foot in yet) something more to do, the common complaint back in the day was even that content was released too fast for most people to complete the previous content before reaching the new one.

Currently blizzard is following the horrible design of FFXIV (imo) where everything baring the end game raid in savage/mythic is faceroll easy and in order to try to keep players in the game (it doesn't work that well) makes you grind that easy content a very large amount of time.

new raids like tov and nh? mew dungeons like karazan? new quest like the suamar story line and more world quest they added? they have already added every thing you put under "actual content" and there will be more coming in 7.2 if that's your bar for "actual content" then you have no room to complain as they have added more of all of that since launch.

[Brytallica]

Became? It always was, but that depends on your playstyle. For any player trying to maximize ASAP, it has never been more than a brainless grind.