Over 2000 guilds stuck at 3/10 mythic, was tuning 7 bosses to 54 traits a mistake?

[cFortyfive]

like EN looked ?
spam MaW 24/7 for gear/ap

As if it would have taken more than a heroic id and some mythic + to vastly outgear that easy turd.

Back in the days of old they would nerf bosses over time, later on the added buff/debuff nerfs to raids as they became older to let 'worse' guilds keep progressing rather then run into the same wall for 4 months (they don't, they disband and quit instead).
WF/TF replaced that gradual nerf system by gradually buffing players instead.

Pretty sure they nerfed several encounters already even this addon around and it's not like encounters are tuned around having 925.

[Deleted]

As if it would have taken more than a heroic id and some mythic + to vastly outgear that easy turd.

Pretty sure they nerfed several encounters already even this addon around and it's not like encounters are tuned around having 925.

theyve nerfed all of tov, spellblade abit , star augur kinda. But have buffed elisande triliax and CA.

[Deleted]

Back in the days of old they would nerf bosses over time, later on the added buff/debuff nerfs to raids as they

I cant remember a single nerf from vanilla to cata with the intention to make it easier for the vast majority. Some bosses were slightly adjusted to make them killable for more than 5 guilds. But they were still hard enough to prevent plebs to kill them with no effort. Even the Lichking destroyed the most guilds with max buff.

The nerf in EN Mythic droped the difficulty from normal to under LFR.

[Deleted]

They should just kill the 4th boss if they are at 3/10. It's pretty simple

[Yunaqt]

The first three are gifted. Botanist and tichondrius have very moderate difficulty. Spellblade and Krosus add a bit more. The last three are hard.

I can't remember it being advertised as don't play other content otherwise you will find the hardest content not challenging.

Actually I find Spellblade is really easy, first night of prog we had a 3% wipe, died the next prog night on it. Seems to be a 45 ~ 65 attempt boss, quite a few guilds tackle this before doing Krosus or even Botanist now.
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The instance is looking at a nerf in the coming weeks as well in 7.2 when people have access to new AK, Artifact traits and working towards their 4th gold trait.

[Deleted]

The system does not work if you tune for people having WF/TF.

And yes, the system of gradually making content easier by buffing players (through WF/TF) does not mash with a 24/7 no limit gear treadmill.

This is the problem I see, too. The later NH bosses were definitely tuned around 900 ilvl. While the max loot you get is 905.

Mythic EN on the other hand was tuned around 865 while the max loot is 880. There was much more room to improve.

Bosses should be tuned with the previous difficulty in mind. but with the WF/TF and split runs, that are going on, that is impossible while giving the top guild a challenge.

Also if you hit a wall for too long ppl will undoubtedly leave but because of the legendary/ap system it is almost impossible to recruit properly geared ppl.

Blizzard is killing guild around the 2000+ range.

[Deleted]

This is the problem I see, too. The later NH bosses were definitely tuned around 900 ilvl. While the max loot you get is 905.

Mythic EN on the other hand was tuned around 865 while the max loot is 880. There was much more room to improve.

Bosses should be tuned with the previous difficulty in mind. but with the WF/TF and split runs, that are going on, that is impossible while giving the top guild a challenge.

Also if you hit a wall for too long ppl will undoubtedly leave but because of the legendary/ap system it is almost impossible to recruit properly geared ppl.

Blizzard is killing guild around the 2000+ range.

Oh noes. Blizzard has been killing guilds all the time. Making too easy content,too difficu k t, too fluffy! People will always find a reason to complain.

In reality, most top guilds would clear 7/10 with ilvl 895. Becazse their execution is better. Managing to soak more adds in Krosus is more important than 5 ilvls...

It is just a lazy excuse...

[Deleted]

The real mistake was making EN mythic so easy that people deluded themselves into thinking they were mythic quality raiders.

[Deleted]

You don't need to recruit "properly geared" people, just people that give a shit, this is evident in log analysis.

That's even more difficult to find than than geared ppl lol. I don't think you properly grasp the recruitment situation for guilds ranked 2k+

the top guild all went in Mythic EN with 2 legendaries at around 865. They ended it around 868.

My guild went in there with around 872 and finished it with 884. If you are telling me that doesn't make a big difference you are delusional.

In NH Mythic the top guild went in with around 900 and ended it with 905. My guild is at around 901 after 8 weeks of general NH progression. I don't see us getting much better loot. Maybe 1-2 ilvl in the next 2-3 weeks but i'm not sure we will be surviving that long without progression.

I'm not asking for an eventual nerf of the bosses. I just want a more properly balanced gear progression similar like it was in EN.

[Deleted]

Sounds to me like you need to align your expectations.

Don't compare yourself to top guilds if you're not a top guild. Compare yourself to something...comparable?

I can adequately grasp the situation for all guilds RE: Recruitment, as it's similar for all, you need to establish what your level is, what your requirements are, and if they are in line with what you can realistically achieve.

I'm not. The top guilds used to kill the bosses with almost 20 ilvl less than my guild did, what is fine. 20 ilvl make an insane difference. Not expecting to kill the bosses around the same ilvl as the top gilds did. Now however 7 weeks after NH mythic was released we just barely hit the ilvl the top guild went into NH Mythic with. Which is wrong imo.

@ recruiting, I don't think it's similar. there is a huge difference if you have to compete with ~300 other guild vs having to compete with ~5000 other guild for suitable replacements.

[Sarevokcz]

Sounds to me like you need to align your expectations.

Don't compare yourself to top guilds if you're not a top guild. Compare yourself to something...comparable?

I can adequately grasp the situation for all guilds RE: Recruitment, as it's similar for all, you need to establish what your level is, what your requirements are, and if they are in line with what you can realistically achieve.

he isnt comparing himself to top guilds, did you read it at all?
mythic guilds usually bruteforce mythic with enough gear farming, but unlike previous tiers, mythic NH isnt really balanced around its heroic, in this case 890, gear, its somewhere near and above 900 and guilds, that can comfortably kill, say, 3/10 mythic dont really have any place to farm the gear needed to compensate for the lack of coordination and skill. you can say all week long "but wf/tf," guess what, im stuck at 898 for a month simply because we dont get any WF/TF leather at all and I dont have a single upgrade from the first three bosses (got tier cloak already) unless it titanforges.

the AP doesnt help either, since your casual mythic raider will be closing in on 50+ traits easily by now and cant "overfarm" AP to get that extra 5-10% damage anymore

I could probably find my post from like three months ago about this very issue, where raid has to be tuned tightly for minmax guilds, but "bads" wont have any room to overpower the content with higher ilevel, its pretty much the same issue as with ToV, just on a slightly smaller scale and better hidden with 10 bosses instead of 3

dont get me wrong, I like the tuning of the raid, I just wish there was a way to steadily work against some goal, that would help us beat the bosses, since i recognize we just arent good enough to beat it with around 900 ilevel with close to zero room for improvement in that department (altho in our case I dont think gear matters much, when people even after dozens of wipes still eat solars on botanist like cereals for breakfast...)

[Gorsameth]

Sounds to me like you need to align your expectations.

Don't compare yourself to top guilds if you're not a top guild. Compare yourself to something...comparable?

I can adequately grasp the situation for all guilds RE: Recruitment, as it's similar for all, you need to establish what your level is, what your requirements are, and if they are in line with what you can realistically achieve.

The point is that the guilds without the 'skill' of the top guilds will run into a wall at some point (looks like 3/10 atm) and their skill cannot carry them beyond this point. In the past bosses would be nerfed over time (see for example the ICC buff) to allow these guilds to continue progress.

WF/TF was meant to replace that system but with the infinite gear treadmill Blizzard tuned NH to high where WF/TF is no longer enough to allow these 'lesser' guilds to progress.
Their only option becomes to spend multiple months doing basically nothing while waiting for the perfect TF lottery for enough members to brute force past.
Few people/guilds will run into a brick fall for that long and instead they will quit/disband.
This loss of players is bad for the game, which is why Blizzard has always worked to keep these guilds going in the past.

[Gorsameth]

I wholeheartedly disagree.

The guilds that run into these walls should look and evaluate where they are and how to improve further. Log analysis is step 1 to see obvious/micro improvements that can be made.

Hitting these "walls" should be an opportunity to improve, not one to say....well lets wait until more gear.

Progress Mentality is super important o/.

But that's just my opinion. As elitist as it may seem, nobody likes a culture shift, or to realise they've reached a skill cap, but unfortunately without the harsh truth sometimes you won't have the desire to improve.

'They' don't have a problem with it. They just quit and move on to another game. Its Blizzard that has a problem with bleeding that many people every single tier.

[cFortyfive]

Actually I find Spellblade is really easy, first night of prog we had a 3% wipe, died the next prog night on it. Seems to be a 45 ~ 65 attempt boss, quite a few guilds tackle this before doing Krosus or even Botanist now.

I personally don't find any of the encounters particularly hard either - I still would consider Krosus probably the hardest and spellblade harder than tichondrius who really just is a total pushover especially at the ilvl you are now after so many hc ids.

Bosses should be tuned with the previous difficulty in mind. but with the WF/TF and split runs, that are going on, that is impossible while giving the top guild a challenge.

You don't need split runs and probably not even mythic at this point to easily outgear the first 6 encounters.

In NH Mythic the top guild went in with around 900 and ended it with 905. My guild is at around 901 after 8 weeks of general NH progression. I don't see us getting much better loot. Maybe 1-2 ilvl in the next 2-3 weeks but i'm not sure we will be surviving that long without progression.

Are you dropping geared members left and right ? Because otherwise that sounds at the very least odd.

mythic guilds usually bruteforce mythic with enough gear farming, but unlike previous tiers, mythic NH isnt really balanced around its heroic, in this case 890, gear, its somewhere near and above 900 and guilds, that can comfortably kill, say, 3/10 mythic dont really have any place to farm the gear needed to compensate for the lack of coordination and skill.

890 also simply isn't a realistic ilvl to have anymore with mythic+ gearing and that without any form of excessive farm.

'They' don't have a problem with it. They just quit and move on to another game. Its Blizzard that has a problem with bleeding that many people every single tier.

Losing players from mythic raiding is certainly something blizzard has the least problems with.

[Wycked]

7 bosses are not tuned for 54 traits.
Last 3 probably are and that's perfectly fine.

There is a bigger than usual step up in difficulty after Trilliax that is the result of the first 3 being drastically under tuned rather than the following bosses being overtuned. Most real guilds wiped no more than 10 times total(all 3 combined) on the first 3 then moved on to actual mythic bosses. 2000 guilds being able to say they are 3/10 mythic is a gift from blizzard more than them actually earning 3 mythic kills.

Does being 54 help? Yes,
Can the first 7 be killed w/ a raid @ 40 or 45? Absolutely.

Stop spreading the lie that you need 54

Signed,
Raid lead of a 9/10 mythic guild that understands this game better than you.

[Deleted]

7 bosses are not tuned for 54 traits.
Last 3 probably are and that's perfectly fine.

There is a bigger than usual step up in difficulty after Trilliax that is the result of the first 3 being drastically under tuned rather than the following bosses being overtuned. Most real guilds wiped no more than 10 times total(all 3 combined) on the first 3 then moved on to actual mythic bosses. 2000 guilds being able to say they are 3/10 mythic is a gift from blizzard more than them actually earning 3 mythic kills.

Does being 54 help? Yes,
Can the first 7 be killed w/ a raid @ 40 or 45? Absolutely.

Stop spreading the lie that you need 54

Signed,
Raid lead of a 9/10 mythic guild that understands this game better than you.

Its nothing new that people searching for excuses for their lack in skill or engagement to learn the game properly. Excuses in the past were usually the lack of gear (Look at his gear, he has 1 ilvl more. This is why he is doing 50% more dps) or the necessary time required to learn the game properly (I have no time to read forums, I have to do RL things if I dont play the game).

[Ebalina]

7 bosses are not tuned for 54 traits.
Last 3 probably are and that's perfectly fine.

There is a bigger than usual step up in difficulty after Trilliax that is the result of the first 3 being drastically under tuned rather than the following bosses being overtuned. Most real guilds wiped no more than 10 times total(all 3 combined) on the first 3 then moved on to actual mythic bosses. 2000 guilds being able to say they are 3/10 mythic is a gift from blizzard more than them actually earning 3 mythic kills.

Does being 54 help? Yes,
Can the first 7 be killed w/ a raid @ 40 or 45? Absolutely.

Stop spreading the lie that you need 54

Signed,
Raid lead of a 9/10 mythic guild that understands this game better than you.

You need 54 when half of your raid is mouth breeding retard.
That is just the case do not tell me otherwise.

I do not care if you are 10/10 mythic or 9/10 or what ever when you actually are playing with people who are playing superb.
If you kill the 1st 7 bosses with less then 50 traits in your raid as in all 20 are under then your players are doing exceptionally well they have mastered their class.

Well newsflash my man guilds under 500ranks do not have the luxury you do.
And what basicly you are saying is every one who is doing better then his peers to look for a new guild and place to play because the rest of their team is holding them back.
Bosses are tuned for 54 traits for your average joe which is the biggest part of the game.
Therefor i say they are tuned for 54 and that is it.

[schwank05]

Mythic was a Mistake. Never should have gone more than what Ulduar did. Activated HM's were the best and much more engaging.

[cFortyfive]

Well newsflash my man guilds under 500ranks do not have the luxury you do.

Frankly I would't even be too sure about that being true for anything past 250 without a good couple of rounds of hc farm.

[zyniker]

Mythic was a Mistake. Never should have gone more than what Ulduar did. Activated HM's were the best and much more engaging.

And, as the developers noted- that style of hard modes has a very short shelf life because at some point you run out of creative ways to do that. Hell, they kinda exhausted a lot of the ways to do it *IN* Ulduar- "don't kill these things" "kill the heart" "kill the bosses in a different order" "kill him fast" "don't kill these things" "do the gauntlet fast" "PUSH A BUTTON LOL" "dont' kill these adds so you kill that other add " "don't use the keepers"

There's really only so much you can do with that style of hard mode. I'm fine with the difficulty toggle as opposed to the old style of "welp, we fucked it up, reset the boss so we can try to trigger the hard mode again"