Over 2000 guilds stuck at 3/10 mythic, was tuning 7 bosses to 54 traits a mistake?

[Kuruption]

You need 54 when half of your raid is mouth breeding retard.
That is just the case do not tell me otherwise.

I do not care if you are 10/10 mythic or 9/10 or what ever when you actually are playing with people who are playing superb.
If you kill the 1st 7 bosses with less then 50 traits in your raid as in all 20 are under then your players are doing exceptionally well they have mastered their class.

Well newsflash my man guilds under 500ranks do not have the luxury you do.
And what basicly you are saying is every one who is doing better then his peers to look for a new guild and place to play because the rest of their team is holding them back.
Bosses are tuned for 54 traits for your average joe which is the biggest part of the game.
Therefor i say they are tuned for 54 and that is it.

This made me laugh way too much.

Mythic was a Mistake. Never should have gone more than what Ulduar did. Activated HM's were the best and much more engaging.

So did this.

[zyniker]

You need 54 when half of your raid is mouth breeding retard.
That is just the case do not tell me otherwise.

I do not care if you are 10/10 mythic or 9/10 or what ever when you actually are playing with people who are playing superb.
If you kill the 1st 7 bosses with less then 50 traits in your raid as in all 20 are under then your players are doing exceptionally well they have mastered their class.

Well newsflash my man guilds under 500ranks do not have the luxury you do.
And what basicly you are saying is every one who is doing better then his peers to look for a new guild and place to play because the rest of their team is holding them back.
Bosses are tuned for 54 traits for your average joe which is the biggest part of the game.
Therefor i say they are tuned for 54 and that is it.

Admitting you have a problem is the first step in fixing your problem.

[Ebalina]

Or.....they're tuned for people who have a higher level of play than the "average joe".

The concept you have mentioned as the problem, is that "average joe" is not performing well. Therefore you ignore the fact that they're not performing well and rely on overgearing concent.

One would hope you would address the issue of the underperforming player and have a raider that's going to benefit you long term.

Is it me or is that just logical? Player development is very important for guilds to do, as if you don't do this then you're just an organised PuG....

Dude player development stops at a point.
People do not stick around to wait for others to be replaced or for them to learn.
This is human nature and while i agree with what you say this is just not applicable in this game.

I'm gonna a person i had in my guild for 6 months we went over logs and how the person can improve.
6 months down the line this person did nothing of what we asked/said in return always coming with the "but its not me its you" argument.
Okay we cut this person loose but this a time lost this is a spot down the drain with the rate of content coming out my only choice atm is to pick 54traits and hope they are not retarded enough and then weed out the special jewels from logs who are under the 54traits and are performing 95-100% percentile for their current bracket of gear and traits(let me tell you those people ain't that much).

Investing in people is great to a point where you just wasted time on people enough to realize you want the better players always or the ones who look like they are putting in the more effort.


TLDR people are inpatient and wont sit around for others to improve.
TLDR you have to pick and chose better options "if you have them" and ditch the rest behind.
TLDR me no likes the way game is heading.

[joxur]

The problem is that all of this is true:

1) The raid is overtuned.
2) There is a significant difficulty increase from 3 -> bosses.
3) Blizz has removed the ability to make some aspects of these fights easier. For ex, using addons to help with positioning. It's no coincidence that a fight like Krosus and Spellbinder BOTH use exact positioning mechanics that were previously made much easier using addons like Exorsus raid tools on Kormrok. Those two fights are both less forgiving on fuckups than the vast majority of bosses in HFC and BRH, and not only did they removed the ability for addons to make those easier, but they added MORE of those fights in nighthold.
4) 54 points and titanforged gear should be used to provide buffer on mistakes, not as a hard requirement, because then there is no buffer. 54 should have been used as that buffer when someone forgets to soak an add on Krosus. Unless you're a half percenter, you need to have your entire raid at 54 AND do the mechanics perfectly, and sometimes even hope for perfect RNG.

Bottom line is that NH just isn't that well done. It's over tuned and the fights are poorly designed.

[zyniker]

Dude player development stops at a point.
People do not stick around to wait for others to be replaced or for them to learn.
This is human nature and while i agree with what you say this is just not applicable in this game.

I'm gonna a person i had in my guild for 6 months we went over logs and how the person can improve.
6 months down the line this person did nothing of what we asked/said in return always coming with the "but its not me its you" argument.
Okay we cut this person loose but this a time lost this is a spot down the drain with the rate of content coming out my only choice atm is to pick 54traits and hope they are not retarded enough and then weed out the special jewels from logs who are under the 54traits and are performing 95-100% percentile for their current bracket of gear and traits(let me tell you those people ain't that much).

Investing in people is great to a point where you just wasted time on people enough to realize you want the better players always or the ones who look like they are putting in the more effort.


TLDR people are inpatient and wont sit around for others to improve.
TLDR you have to pick and chose better options "if you have them" and ditch the rest behind.
TLDR me no likes the way game is heading.

No, player willingness to put forth effort to improve stops at a point.

I mean, if you're wiling to put forth the time and effort to sort through logs for people who are LFG (and there's always a surplus) that are performing well for their ilvl bracket (WCL doesn't have a ranking per trait bracket as far as I know), you'll find people who aren't 'retarded'. However, if your entire raid core is full of "mouth breathing retards", then that's a 'them' issue and not a "lol instance is tuned for 54 traits past the first 3 bosses" issue.

[Ebalina]

No, player willingness to put forth effort to improve stops at a point.

I mean, if you're wiling to put forth the time and effort to sort through logs for people who are LFG (and there's always a surplus) that are performing well for their ilvl bracket (WCL doesn't have a ranking per trait bracket as far as I know), you'll find people who aren't 'retarded'. However, if your entire raid core is full of "mouth breathing retards", then that's a 'them' issue and not a "lol instance is tuned for 54 traits past the first 3 bosses" issue.

Semantics i know and i understand all you are saying.
My point is it is very difficult to find those people with a content coming out at this rapid pace.
I mean we are 5/10mythic in nh and close to kill tich and i still feel content is coming way 2 fast for my liking.

In the past 2 weeks i had to replace half of my guilds roster with trials and potential better players because the ones i invested time for years now ain't cutting it anymore.
Its breaking my soul really i feel so bad and yet i'm doing it cause if i do not my guild that i've been running for 9years almost now has no future.

I guess what i'm trying to say is blizzard over-estimated the % of ppl who are capable of doing mythic past top 250-300 and rest are struggling for life most of the time.
And i'm not speaking generally only from raid PoV like this whole expansion has been one giant wakamole from legendary's to classes been 2 op to pass on to traits to rng fest.

[Kauko]

"Its to hard its to easy its to hard its to easy its to hard..." - and that for 13years. For once, stop whining and accept it as it is. Its hard? Put more effort in or it will just take longer to clear it. The only problem I had with difficulty was when it was obviously to easy. And that was rarely the case for 99% of players.

[zyniker]

Semantics i know and i understand all you are saying.
My point is it is very difficult to find those people with a content coming out at this rapid pace.
I mean we are 5/10mythic in nh and close to kill tich and i still feel content is coming way 2 fast for my liking.

In the past 2 weeks i had to replace half of my guilds roster with trials and potential better players because the ones i invested time for years now ain't cutting it anymore.
Its breaking my soul really i feel so bad and yet i'm doing it cause if i do not my guild that i've been running for 9years almost now has no future.

I guess what i'm trying to say is blizzard over-estimated the % of ppl who are capable of doing mythic past top 250-300 and rest are struggling for life most of the time.
And i'm not speaking generally only from raid PoV like this whole expansion has been one giant wakamole from legendary's to classes been 2 op to pass on to traits to rng fest.

Well, let me ask you a question (albeit this is going to be a little disingenuous because the paradigm of what's required/expected has changed drastically) but how much of mythic EN did you clear before ToV opened? mythic TOV did you clear before NH opened? mythic BRF did you get cleared before HFC opened? Highmaul before BRF? What about Throne of Thunder heroic (10 or 25)?

All raids have wall bosses of some sort, some earlier than others, some later.

[Radaney]

Everything will be nerfed in 7.2 anyway from the introduction of more overall power.

Mythic was a Mistake. Never should have gone more than what Ulduar did. Activated HM's were the best and much more engaging.

They said they couldn't do this because they would run out of ways to introduce the HM but I believe that means they could've still done in more than one raid...Which they haven't...

[Ebalina]

Well, let me ask you a question (albeit this is going to be a little disingenuous because the paradigm of what's required/expected has changed drastically) but how much of mythic EN did you clear before ToV opened? mythic TOV did you clear before NH opened? mythic BRF did you get cleared before HFC opened? Highmaul before BRF? What about Throne of Thunder heroic (10 or 25)?

All raids have wall bosses of some sort, some earlier than others, some later.

In throne we killed everything including lei-shen before SoO we didn't really had time to do Ra-den. 25
SoO was cleared rank 600 something in the world for us. 25

WoD was a disaster exp.
9/10 BRF before hfc = not having 3 hunters for bh or a single balance was our bane for this boss.
HFC was cleared idk what rank pretty sloppy tough.

7/7 before ToV like idk months ToV 2/3 before any nerfs to any boss then we had x-mas break which lasted almost 1 month and we were reaching helya p2 before we gave up due to our healing roster not been very good and was more frustrating with each pull we put in then it was effective.

I've never raided 10man we've always been 25man apart from Dragonsoul where we cleared content on both difficulty's fr the idk 7 months it was out .

[markos82]

7 bosses are not tuned for 54 traits.
Last 3 probably are and that's perfectly fine.

There is a bigger than usual step up in difficulty after Trilliax that is the result of the first 3 being drastically under tuned rather than the following bosses being overtuned. Most real guilds wiped no more than 10 times total(all 3 combined) on the first 3 then moved on to actual mythic bosses. 2000 guilds being able to say they are 3/10 mythic is a gift from blizzard more than them actually earning 3 mythic kills.

Does being 54 help? Yes,
Can the first 7 be killed w/ a raid @ 40 or 45? Absolutely.

Stop spreading the lie that you need 54

Signed,
Raid lead of a 9/10 mythic guild that understands this game better than you.

Yeah but i bet you dont bring classes that underperform, i mean Paladin with 45 traits can do more dps than Moonkin with 54 traits.
Fill your raid with balance druids, fire mages and other classes/specs that are not so good dps wise that have 40-45 ilvl and lets see how many will you kill.

[sheggaro]

I'm leading one of those 3/10 guilds. We're on an RP server, so the players aren't the best, but we keep it going.

Frankly, I'm okay with mythic raids being hard. What I'm not okay with is them being solely focused around top performing teams for the entirety of the tier. I have parents and shift workers on mine, we just can't afford the same throughput. The AP requirements are just part of that.

I think it's not the main problem though. It's mid expansion tiers in general. They feel pointless. My raid fought their way through end of tier bosses like Blackfuse and Xul'horac, but stuff like Cenarius or Hans&Franz got us blocked no matter how hard we try (and we do). We're not slowly progressing upwards, we're roadblocked until the next tier comes around.

I don't get why raids like ours are damned to grind to a halt at points like these. I hate that the tiers since Cataclysm are tuned around split pushing elitists. I couldn't care less about the race, about hardcore progression guilds and their 4 weeks of fun a year. I care about the people in my raid I've stuck with for 8 years, the 2000~ guilds that are senselessly stuck at this point because of tuning.
To know that there is a good chance this tier is over for a good chunk of them and even us at 3/10m until Tomb comes out is incredibly disheartening. That's just not what a progression curve is supposed to look like.

Let me get this straight: You're complaining that the content is too hard even though you know mythic is supposed to be the hard content? You're not roadblocked by anything but the lack of skill of your raiders.

[Sarevokcz]

The problem is that all of this is true:

1) The raid is overtuned.
2) There is a significant difficulty increase from 3 -> bosses.
3) Blizz has removed the ability to make some aspects of these fights easier. For ex, using addons to help with positioning. It's no coincidence that a fight like Krosus and Spellbinder BOTH use exact positioning mechanics that were previously made much easier using addons like Exorsus raid tools on Kormrok. Those two fights are both less forgiving on fuckups than the vast majority of bosses in HFC and BRH, and not only did they removed the ability for addons to make those easier, but they added MORE of those fights in nighthold.
4) 54 points and titanforged gear should be used to provide buffer on mistakes, not as a hard requirement, because then there is no buffer. 54 should have been used as that buffer when someone forgets to soak an add on Krosus. Unless you're a half percenter, you need to have your entire raid at 54 AND do the mechanics perfectly, and sometimes even hope for perfect RNG.

Bottom line is that NH just isn't that well done. It's over tuned and the fights are poorly designed.

the 4th point is the most important. They dug themselves a hole with raid giving relatively low gear for what was already available at the time, second time in a row, and hoped 10 bosses and wf/tf would fix the issue, which it did not. HC should have been 895 from all bosses, mythic should have been 910 and they shouldnt care about guilds doing multiple splitruns, the raid would gradually get easier, since people could actually progress their gear and this wouldnt be as much of an issue

[zyniker]

Yeah but i bet you dont bring classes that underperform, i mean Paladin with 45 traits can do more dps than Moonkin with 54 traits.
Fill your raid with balance druids, fire mages and other classes/specs that are not so good dps wise that have 40-45 ilvl and lets see how many will you kill.

I mean, my guild's obviously got everyone at 54ish traits (two of our 3 mages switched to frost and I don't think they're at 54 in that spec yet), but our comps have been less than ideal going back to even EN and ToV. (God, doing Helya pre-nerf w/o priests of any variety was....."fun").

We've done our progress with a majority of the raid missing their optimal 2 legendary items as well, so that's not really an argument that you can make.

[Gorsameth]

I mean, my guild's obviously got everyone at 54ish traits (two of our 3 mages switched to frost and I don't think they're at 54 in that spec yet), but our comps have been less than ideal going back to even EN and ToV. (God, doing Helya pre-nerf w/o priests of any variety was....."fun").

We've done our progress with a majority of the raid missing their optimal 2 legendary items as well, so that's not really an argument that you can make.

"My top 0.18% guild has no issues so the 5.13% stuck at 3/10 should stfu."

[markos82]

I mean, my guild's obviously got everyone at 54ish traits (two of our 3 mages switched to frost and I don't think they're at 54 in that spec yet), but our comps have been less than ideal going back to even EN and ToV. (God, doing Helya pre-nerf w/o priests of any variety was....."fun").

We've done our progress with a majority of the raid missing their optimal 2 legendary items as well, so that's not really an argument that you can make.

It is, beacuse no top guild would bring class that underperforms. If you can choose from Pala that has 45 trait weapon and doing 800k dps ST and moonkin with 54 weapon and doing <600k, tell me which class will you bring?

This isnt about having BiS legendary as well as BiS gear you can have, this is about the fact that "normal" Mythic raiding guild, that doesnt have that luxury of having roster of 40 ppl that they can switch and use best combo for each boss need to have some other means of getting additional dps/hps. Thats where that 54 traits comes handy and they are must have/needed to kill some bosses ( like Krosus ) that have tight enrage timer and are basically dps check.

[Deleted]

the 4th point is the most important. They dug themselves a hole with raid giving relatively low gear for what was already available at the time, second time in a row, and hoped 10 bosses and wf/tf would fix the issue, which it did not. HC should have been 895 from all bosses, mythic should have been 910 and they shouldnt care about guilds doing multiple splitruns, the raid would gradually get easier, since people could actually progress their gear and this wouldnt be as much of an issue

I agree.

Most people already have 900 in most slots and getting 900 from first three and 905 from the rest is really badly done. Top guilds and "regular" guilds only had a 5 item level gap when starting NH, this is unheard of. And imagine how much harder regular guilds will have it when in previous raids the item level gap had been way over 10.

The huge Titanforged fiasco was a mistake. Or they should not have tuned the raid around it. The raid should have been tuned around the DEFAULT item level of heroic + 2 legendaries + artifact weapon item level with 3 890 relics. It was explicitly stated that WF-TF is a bonus not a requirement.

We were lied to, because evidently you need around 900 to step foot into NH.
Also, did I mention? The loot is not appetizing at all. minor item level gains.

Overall, a terribly tuned raid that repeated much of what ToV did.

[ping-pong]

You guys still debating this? If you can't clear something it's badly tuned? Mythic is mythic, hardest content in the game. Requires dedication, preparation, skill, time, team management... If you lack any of those, it's not the game's fault, rather your lack of one or more things that are needed for beating the game on hardest setting. If they tuned it down so you could clear it easier, the hardcore guys would walk through it and they would have to invent a new hardest mode. And the circle would continue, you'd complain about that one being too hard and then... see where I'm going with this?

What's next if they start tuning your way, really? "I tried Mythic in pug yesterday, we wiped like 20 times, this is bullshit, needs nerf!"? Mythic, as it's name says, is something BADASS. If you're here complaining and not out there clearing, you are not badass. Deal with it. The best part is, you don't have to clear mythic! Wow, how extraordinary.. right? RIGHT?

[Xar226]

Yeah but i bet you dont bring classes that underperform, i mean Paladin with 45 traits can do more dps than Moonkin with 54 traits.
Fill your raid with balance druids, fire mages and other classes/specs that are not so good dps wise that have 40-45 ilvl and lets see how many will you kill.

One of the streamers I watch on Twitch has two boomkins on almost every progression fight. They are 9/10M and going to finish just outside Top 10 US. Not only are the boomkins not holding them back, they're often among the highest DPS.

I'm sure there legitimately are differences between classes, but they're almost always overblown.

[markos82]

You guys still debating this? If you can't clear something it's badly tuned? Mythic is mythic, hardest content in the game. Requires dedication, preparation, skill, time, team management... If you lack any of those, it's not the game's fault, rather your lack of one or more things that are needed for beating the game on hardest setting. If they tuned it down so you could clear it easier, the hardcore guys would walk through it and they would have to invent a new hardest mode. And the circle would continue, you'd complain about that one being too hard and then... see where I'm going with this?

What's next if they start tuning your way, really? "I tried Mythic in pug yesterday, we wiped like 20 times, this is bullshit, needs nerf!"? Mythic, as it's name says, is something BADASS. If you're here complaining and not out there clearing, you are not badass. Deal with it. The best part is, you don't have to clear mythic! Wow, how extraordinary.. right? RIGHT?

That shouldnt be an issue if there were no legendary items where one is 10% or more dps increase over another, where some class can do 900k dps while other 600k dps on same fight with players that have equal skill and gear.
Mythic raiding shouldnt be about fat 100-200 M+ dungeons so you can get 54 points into weapon, its should be about skill and knowing how to play your class. But it is not, when you have DPS check fight like Krosus each % counts and makes the difference between kill or wipe.

- - - Updated - - -

One of the streamers I watch on Twitch has two boomkins on almost every progression fight. They are 9/10M and going to finish just outside Top 10 US. Not only are the boomkins not holding them back, they're often among the highest DPS.

I'm sure there legitimately are differences between classes, but they're almost always overblown.

On Krosus, i highly doubt it, just look at the logs, moonkins shine on MT fights, there are not that many fights in NH mythic.