Trinket choice

[Darkkz]

Hello,

I got a 900 iLVL Memento trinket from the weekly chest. My trinkets right now are CoF (and 3xMA relics) and NBF. I am thinking about swapping the NBF with the Memento because on some fights I never see the NBF past 4 maximum 5%. I tried simulating them and AskMrRobot said I will lose 15k DPS on the switch.

This is my character

Do you think it's a good idea switching them? I don't have any other trinkets except an 875 urn.

LE: The armory should be fine now, it was showing me as Outlaw. I am Assassination.

[TwentyTwelve]

Personally would insta switch, I have a 905 NBF with socket and dont bother using it - its great if it procs... but just like most of the trinkets in NH, the proc rate is just bad.

[Deleted]

Why is NBF simming so high anyways? I mean its ~4-5% of my DMG. And today I got Foci 905 and I swapped it in for my NBF 890 - and guess what? According to simcraft I loose 8k... Is this intended? Is simcraft doing it right? Should I stick with my NBF? Because as it seems to me, NBF is just toally simming wrong.

[Halobob87]

Why is NBF simming so high anyways? I mean its ~4-5% of my DMG. And today I got Foci 905 and I swapped it in for my NBF 890 - and guess what? According to simcraft I loose 8k... Is this intended? Is simcraft doing it right? Should I stick with my NBF? Because as it seems to me, NBF is just toally simming wrong.

NBF sims that high couse simscraft make it proc ~1 time per minutes, while NBF's proc is actually way inconsistent. It often deal the same or comparable damage to From the shadows, which is laughable.

Anyway, NBF is still a good trinket, and an equal itl memento should be roughly on par (depends from your mastery level really, at higher mastery level NBF is probably better).

[Deleted]

NBF sims that high couse simscraft make it proc ~1 time per minutes, while NBF's proc is actually way inconsistent. It often deal the same or comparable damage to From the shadows, which is laughable.

Anyway, NBF is still a good trinket, and an equal itl memento should be roughly on par (depends from your mastery level really, at higher mastery level NBF is probably better).

IMO Memento is not only on par, its even better. Reason: Memento also procs if someone from your group / raid dies. This is something that simcraft doesnt take into account! So keep that in mind. For prgress its a beast imo.

[shaunika123]

what ilvl is your NBF?

if it's 905 i'd use it over memento, if it's lower then not

[Deleted]

3 Things

1) dont use metric numbers to judge about the performance of something.

2) NBF@905 is the second strongest dps trinket available in spite of the very volatile performance (lowest 57.5k / highest 90.0k / Average 67.5k [combined performance of agility + proc] @ star augur mythic kills)

3) Memento or Foci are completely useless and far behind of all NH and flat stat trinkets on the same ilvl.

[Deleted]

NBF has proven to be strangely more consistent for Assa than both Otl and Sub, not quite sure why - It has its low point, but it very consistently does 4-5% of my dps (and the two Assa rogues dps) on most tried, with some spikes upwards due to chainprocs and some spikes downward due to proccing during downtime, like soaking on Krosus or Botanist.

I was really unhappy with it the first few weeks, but I've warmed up to it - I would definitely use it as Assa, it seems to work surprisingly well for the spec. Something to do with an interaction with mutilate, perhaps?

[Eazy]

I'd go with CoF and MoA.

[Deleted]

but it very consistently does 4-5% of my dps

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Infracted.

[iky43210]

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It doesn't really matter what sort of gauge he uses as long as its consistent. Its a figure that he can easily look at and compare to rest of his trinkets, and also fits well with his raiding environment.

[kidstechno]

What about an 875 NBF vs. 890 Foci w/ Socket? The 875 NBF sims way higher, but it "feels" like I do more damage with the Foci. Haven't had much testing of switching one for the other.

[Deleted]

It doesn't really matter what sort of gauge he uses as long as its consistent. Its a figure that he can easily look at and compare to rest of his trinkets, and also fits well with his raiding environment.

No, this is just not working to evaluate the strength of something.

First of all there is nothing consistent, not the performance of the trinket nor the overall dps. Your overall dps is also volatile and rng dependend.

Besides DoS, all the other viable trinkets have agility on it. The agility on it is actually responsible for the major part of the trinkets overall performance. The proc is the cherry on top. The proc of NBF is the very first one in the game (for rogues) which is on par with the agility on the trinket. The average performance of the standard mythic version (ilvl 905) is 67.5k dps, 35k dps from agility, 32.5k dps from proc (average proc damage gathered from all the data available at WCL Star Augur Mythic kills). To get 30k+ dps with an memento or foci you would need at least ~45% uptime of the mastery buff only. The truth both trinket procs (foci/memento) barely beat the 20k mark and are twice as much rng dependend than NBF. DoS and CoF are the only alternatives on the same ilvl. Memento/Foci could be on par at ilvl 915-920.

[shaunika123]

2) NBF@905 is the second strongest dps trinket available in spite of the very volatile performance (lowest 57.5k / highest 90.0k / Average 67.5k [combined performance of agility + proc] @ star augur mythic kills)

that's just flat out wrong tho

depending on a lot of stuff the 2nd best dps trinket can either be a mastery stat stick(bracers) or cof (boots) or cof again(shoulders no boots) or even arcanogolem(if there's cleave around)
not debating whether NBF is good tho, dont get me wrong, it's a fine trinket, but flat out saying it's "2nd best" is misleading

[Deleted]

that's just flat out wrong tho

depending on legendaries the 2nd best dps trinket can either be a mastery stat stick(bracers) or cof (boots) or cof again(shoulders no boots)

mastery stat stick is always ~10k behind NBF at the same ilvl no matter what circumstances (if we take the average performance of the NBF proc into account, its on par with really bad proc luck). DoS is also not the best trinket in every boss fight. The possible spikes of the NBF proc (there are some 8min augur fights around) around 50 to 60 k dps (+ agility) even out dps DoS with shoulders by 20%. You should have all three of them in the inventory (CoF, NBF, DoS) no matter what legs you have.

[shaunika123]

mastery stat stick is always ~10k behind NBF

is it tho?
you said a 905 NBF is 67.5k dps (on elissande it was only 61k for me yesterday on 36 tries, but obviously that's no star augur so i'll give you the benefit of the doubt on that)
my 900 ethereal urn is worth 63000 dps with boots+bracers(remembers bracers increases the value of mastery by quite a lot)

so on arcade fights like elissande it's probably better EVEN with it being 5 ilvl lower assuming you got the bracers (im not using the bracers on elissande so i use NBF cos DoS is pretty bad there, but still)

assuming your 67.5k avg dps for a 905 trinket
for a 900 trinket that's 64270 a whopping 1k more than my mastery trinket, which has the advantage of consistency, so yes apparently it is slightly better on average, but i'll take that consistency over sitting outside with ice circles/ running with star signs/watching a teleported out elissande with a trinket proc up tbh

plus it can remove the fear on star augur if i fuck up lel

[iky43210]

No, this is just not working to evaluate the strength of something.

First of all there is nothing consistent, not the performance of the trinket nor the overall dps. Your overall dps is also volatile and rng dependend.

Besides DoS, all the other viable trinkets have agility on it. The agility on it is actually responsible for the major part of the trinkets overall performance. The proc is the cherry on top. The proc of NBF is the very first one in the game (for rogues) which is on par with the agility on the trinket. The average performance of the standard mythic version (ilvl 905) is 67.5k dps, 35k dps from agility, 32.5k dps from proc (average proc damage gathered from all the data available at WCL Star Augur Mythic kills). To get 30k+ dps with an memento or foci you would need at least ~45% uptime of the mastery buff only. The truth both trinket procs (foci/memento) barely beat the 20k mark and are twice as much rng dependend than NBF. DoS and CoF are the only alternatives on the same ilvl. Memento/Foci could be on par at ilvl 915-920.

Too bad we play in a game world where using average dps is a pointless metric because fights have fluctuating length that heavily ties with the group you raid with and each may use different stragey.

Using Percentage based comparison for personal trinket gauge would alleviate this problem because it is very likely that your raid would kill a boss in a similarly fixed amount of time. E.g Draught would be far more valuable if you kill boss at 4.1 min than say, 5.

Yes you could convert it to each boss scenario, but nobody got the time for that when you could easily look at log for quick % and make fairly close estimates.

[Deleted]

No, this is just not working to evaluate the strength of something.

First of all there is nothing consistent, not the performance of the trinket nor the overall dps. Your overall dps is also volatile and rng dependend.

And yet this manages to be the case in a lot of fights - note than when i say 4-5%, I'm taking into account low fights and high fights, and this is where the average has landed when looking at several weeks of fights. Hell, I've seen 2-3 min wipes where the trinket doesn't proc once, and fights where it procs back to back twice in the fight.

I really don't see what wrong with saying that it accounts for 4-5% of my dps (and the two other Assa rogue's dps, I might add). It's just an anecdotal frame of reference, no reason to react so strongly

[Truelegacy]

You have lege shoulders,just spam guldan and get a DoS

[Deleted]

Too bad we play in a game world where using average dps is a pointless metric because fights have fluctuating length that heavily ties with the group you raid with and each may use different stragey.

You are really trying to tell us, that average performances are worthless? What the hack is wrong with you people. Average performances are the most accurate way to compare trinkets with each other. Simulations of trinkets alone are not accurate enough. Furthermore stat weights are also average values, otherwise you could not use them because any fight differs with procs crit etc.

my 900 ethereal urn is worth 63000 dps

I have no clue what your stat weights are, but 63000 are quite impossible. This requires like 19.5dps per stat. Its more like 53k dps (16.6Agi / 15.5Mastery).

Yes you could convert it to each boss scenario, but nobody got the time for that when you could easily look at log for quick % and make fairly close estimates.

as we can see, you are just unable to read your logs properly.


It seems like I'm discussing with amateurs here. It has a reason why I have choosed star augur for comparison. Star augur is the best ST fight with very high duration in NH. All values you gather through simulations are usually all focused on pure ST bosses (they are already trying to copy fights like ursoc, krosus, whatever to cut the uptime by 0.5 to 1%?). We need a normalized platform to test all the things under the same cirumstances. There is no room for variables (due to boss mechanics, movement, whatever) when we compare. This method is working since the very beginning of theorycrafting in WoW.

But all the people here in the forum usually feelcraft. "The trinket is only doing 5% of my damage, MoA is better" how the fuck can you feel MoA is better. Without maths and forumals there is just no correct answer possible. I have figured out all numbers by using simulations, taking values from WCL and merged all the stuff by myself.

Memento (and similar ones) are the hardest trinkets to calculate. First of all it has 3 different buffs of 3 different layers of strength. Secondly its also an 1rppm (foci 0.7rppm). Thirdly the moments of the procs are extremely versatile but the most important. It makes a huge difference if the trinket procs mastery twice during vendetta and/or kingsbane or its just procing haste during completely CD downtime. The chance to get an proc outside of your CD timeframe is higher in the nature of things. But even here we (and ofc the simulations) are forced to give those trinkets an average performance to make them comparable.

Flat stat trinkets are the easiest trinkets to evaluate, just take your stat weights (in my 908 gear its 16.6 agi / 15.5 mastery no matter what combo: shoes+bracers/shoes+shoulders/shoulders+bracers).

DoS is pretty much one of the hardest to evalute correctly in combination with the shoulders. You are not using vanish and dos on cd anymore, so the whole rotation changes over the whole fight, what makes it actually unclear at which point some dps are lost and must be catched up again by the trinket. Its definitely easier to evaluate without the shoulders, because you are using the trinket more or less on CD and dont care about your other cooldowns.