This Handgun Attachment For Police Aims to Make Bullets Non-Lethal

[analmoose]

Those who think this is a good idea - Never shot a gun.

Those who think this is a bad idea - Understands a gun.


It's pretty easy to not get shot by the police, follow Zenkai's 2 important rules

1. Don't commit crimes.
2. If you fail to follow rule 1, don't resist arrest.

Following these 2 simple rules has kept me from getting shot, by the police, I have had multiple interactions with the police in my youth and 0 times it has resulted in violence.

Yeah white privilege obvs, cis scum
/sarcasdm off

[Polyxo]

You know eventually some non-white 8 year old is going to be shot with this at school by the locally stationed officer for like, failing to turn in his or her homework on time.

[kasuke06]

The only problem with tasers they are limited by range either physical or short range for the wires. There is a need for a longer range non-lethal weapon to stop runners and other uses.

Whatever happened to those taser shotgun shells that were being worked on? the ones that basically fired a miniature taser with a self contained battery?

[Xandrigity]

Rubber bullets are great I don't know why they aren't used more than they are.

[Azadina]

Depending on the airsoft gun, your max velocity is still LESS than the speed of a bullets AFTER being slowed 80%.

I feel like you're being argumentative just for the sake of being argumentative.

The company themselves acknowledges the product as "less" lethal. Giving credence to my post.

Also airsoft maxes out at ~560 f/s (and that's on a high sniper rifle airsoft... your typical handgun is going to be in the ~300 f/s range). This also doesn't account for the significant amount of drag on airsoft pellets which dramatically decreases velocity with range.

That's called projecting, especially when you're still at ignoring physics and talking incorrect information.

Let's go over your argument: First line, hilariously false, and denying reality. 500 mph is infact on planet earth higher velocity than 340 mph after 80% reduction. Did you even think that thru?

Maxing out at 560 feet per second? False. You can tune upwards of 220 meters per second, or in weird measurements, 722 feet per second. Which is at about the 500 mph mark I mentioned earlier.

I'm not arguing for the sake of it, as so far your arguments have been lacking, or flat out physics denial. I've tried to correct that to no avail, since even that post of yours is still at denial, and basically "dis more lethal! more lethal = more SPEED! SPEED KILL!"

Devos wasn't even needed to destroy the school system.

[chazus]

Literally two years old. Either the tech never got used or was already in place.

[McFuu]

I can see a use for this as an optional add-on, but I think a better practice would just be to have the first 2-3 bullets in an officer's sidearm be rubber bullets, by default. Any situation where you get pushed into firing will thus default to less-than-lethal rounds, unless it's a serious enough situation to justify more than a couple shots, in which case you're into using lethal ammo, without having to worry about changing magazines.

That isn't what rubber bullets are. They can't be fired from a normal pistol. Same goes for "plastic rounds", they are the same concept of rubber bullets. They are fired usually from specialized guns.

[A dot Ham]

Let's go over your argument: First line, hilariously false, and denying reality. 500 mph is infact on planet earth higher velocity than 340 mph after 80% reduction. Did you even think that thru?

I'm not arguing for the sake of it, as so far your arguments have been lacking, or flat out physics denial. I've tried to correct that to no avail, since even that post of yours is still at denial, and basically "dis more lethal! more lethal = more SPEED! SPEED KILL!"

First off, it isn't hilariously false I am simply using a value that makes far more sense in comparison... rather than the baseless one you have decided to use simply because it fits your argument.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airsoft_pellets

Penetration is defined here as entering the skin to a depth of more than half of the spherical pellet's diameter.

Accordingly, a typical 0.20 g airsoft pellet will penetrate the skin at 136.7 m/s (448 ft/s)

This is also where I got my values for average airsoft pellet speeds.

The pellet speed of spring-powered and automatic electric guns is determined in large part by the tension of the gun's main spring. Muzzle velocity limits are between 90 and 120 m/s (300 and 390 ft/s) for AEGs and 120 to 170 m/s (390–560 ft/s) for single-shot spring sniper rifles.

So @ 300 f/s = ~205 mph. So my statement that 205 mph < 340 mph remains true.

You have also failed to recognize that speeds DRAMATICALLY decrease as there is significant drag on the pellet. In any case I never made the argument that more speed = more death, or whatever retarded argument you are claiming I made by this gibberish.

"dis more lethal! more lethal = more SPEED! SPEED KILL!"

(1) The company themselves classifies the device as "less" lethal. Which again... gives credence to my argument.

(2) The projectile fired from the device looks like a heavy piece of lead the size of a golf ball (slightly larger)

(3) If a baseball traveling at 90 mph can stop a heart or cause significant brain damage then it is safe to assume that this golf ball sized object of similar weight (probably more) traveling at nearly 4 times as fast is going to have the same result.

There are clearly some unknowns particularly surrounding the measurements of the projectile itself. But this is where you get argumentative. A reasonable person would concede at this point that is likely to be true. If you were truly hell bent on disproving my hypothesis you would take the time to calculate the kinetic energy required to stop a heart and then provide due diligence to research the projectile itself.

Instead you have decided to use some strawman argument about an airsoft pellet which I have sufficiently disproved, and clarified my position.

You will, because you are trolling, undoubtedly have some other baseless remark.

[Annoying]

Literally two years old. Either the tech never got used or was already in place.

Personally, it feels like one of those "no time to do more than pull it sometimes" issues. If you're pulling a gun-like object, might as well make it simple. LTL -> Taser. Lethal-> gun.

That isn't what rubber bullets are. They can't be fired from a normal pistol. Same goes for "plastic rounds", they are the same concept of rubber bullets. They are fired usually from specialized guns.

Not to mention, sometimes you really need those first 2-3 rounds to be real. They start shooting at you and you really don't want to have to pull the trigger 4 times before you're actually shooting back at them.

[Azadina]

First off, it isn't hilariously false I am simply using a value that makes far more sense in comparison... rather than the baseless one you have decided to use simply because it fits your argument.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airsoft_pellets

You've been ignoring the mass all along, which I've pointed multiple times. So when you finally made your argument based not on speed, but speed + bullet sized object, then I found it appropriate to find you something even smaller and faster that isn't lethal. You really can't figure it out after all this time?

Have a look, I said it from the beginning.

That's talking about baseballs. Pretty sure baseball has alot more mass compared to a bullet. It's the kinetic energy that matters, and both 90 mph and 340 mph are irrelevant on their own.

What was your reply? Ah, yes, rambling about "at those speeds it doesn't matter". So what I did? Found something faster and smaller. Nope, still can't figure it out even when flat out stated. Since then you've been rambling about speeds, going so far as to proclaim 340 mph "faster" than my example of 500, by conveniently ignoring the example, and inserting irrelevant "comparison" of your own. I know this is extremely difficult for you, but the point was not about comparing airsoft pistol to real pistol, as you twisted it to serve your agenda. The point was comparing size and speed, which you claimed DOESN'T MATTER, if it's small and high enough. And you even gave the benchmark, which was bullet size and 340 mph.

And what would you know, I GAVE an example of both smaller size and faster speed. It doesn't interest me at all what you imagine "standard" airsoft pistol fires at. No one cares about it, since it again wasn't the point.

You will, because you are trolling, undoubtedly have some other baseless remark.

Oh, I know who's doing what. It's not quite how you've imagined. Neither is physics.

[A dot Ham]

You've been ignoring the mass all along, which I've pointed multiple times. So when you finally made your argument based not on speed, but speed + bullet sized object, then I found it appropriate to find you something even smaller and faster that isn't lethal. You really can't figure it out after all this time?

Have a look, I said it from the beginning.



What was your reply? Ah, yes, rambling about "at those speeds it doesn't matter". So what I did? Found something faster and smaller. Nope, still can't figure it out even when flat out stated. Since then you've been rambling about speeds, going so far as to proclaim 340 mph "faster" than my example of 500, by conveniently ignoring the example, and inserting irrelevant "comparison" of your own. I know this is extremely difficult for you, but the point was not about comparing airsoft pistol to real pistol, as you twisted it to serve your agenda. The point was comparing size and speed, which you claimed DOESN'T MATTER, if it's small and high enough. And you even gave the benchmark, which was bullet size and 340 mph.

And what would you know, I GAVE an example of both smaller size and faster speed. It doesn't interest me at all what you imagine "standard" airsoft pistol fires at. No one cares about it, since it again wasn't the point.



Oh, I know who's doing what. It's not quite how you've imagined. Neither is physics.

I've provided a source, and showed you exactly where I got my figures... you on the other hand continue to pull shit out of your ass and misrepresent what I have said. I never said that size doesn't matter and that more speed = more death. You're super dense.

I made the assertion that a typical bullet slowed to 340 mph (which isn't 100% accurate of what this device does) would be lethal. If you've ever seen what bullets do on impact you would concede this fact. But you seem bound and determined to "prove me wrong" and not only are you not right, you come across as an egotistical asshole. I hypothesized that a bullet traveling at that speed could/would cause significant trauma without having to break the skin.

Firearms expert Julian Hatcher studied falling bullets in the 1920s and calculated that .30 caliber rounds reach terminal velocities of 90 m/s (300 feet per second or 204 miles per hour). A bullet traveling at only 61 m/s (200 feet per second) to 100 m/s (330 feet per second) can penetrate human skin.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celebratory_gunfire

It in fact only requires about 1/3 that speed for penetration. So again... if I was dealing with someone rational, you would have conceded by now.

To that end even with your strawman argument and your supposed 500mph airsoft pellet... would have significant penetrating power if it only requires 300 mph for penetration. A well placed airsoft shot at that speed... according to the source provided... may actually have lethal capability.

[Amalaric]

Seems kind of pointless if it's only one shot that's non-lethal when it seems like many of these police shootings involve multiple shots fired, just like the guy in the video said. Plus at $45 a pop, those aren't exactly going to be cheap to stock.

Make it in China at a tenth of the cost.

- - - Updated - - -

Rubber bullets are great I don't know why they aren't used more than they are.

Have you ever been on the receiving end?

[The One Percent]

Cops should just pull out of communities that don't want police and shore up defensive lines around communities that do.

[Vash The Stampede]

Why not use rubber or plastic bullets, something along the lines of paintball gun force.

That's what I was thinking.

[Gemini Soul]

That's what I was thinking.

Cops can carry a a gun made for such bullets also, i do think there is need for a range-able non-lethal way to take down a target like a runner or target with a non-gun weapon. Yes there are tasers but those have limited range. Maybe a form of wax or plaster projectile with a rubber core or something, there are plenty of materials to work from that can be used to make such a thing. As for delivery a bullet with not as much gun powder for a slower/weaker projectile or a form of Co2 or compressed air that could be adjusted via a knob on said gun to control the speed/damage potential.

[McFuu]

Not to mention, sometimes you really need those first 2-3 rounds to be real. They start shooting at you and you really don't want to have to pull the trigger 4 times before you're actually shooting back at them.

That is also a very valid point. And really tools such as the one shown in OP would prevent an extremely small amount of deaths. A shooting along the lines of Michael Brown, the officer didn't have time to draw his weapon or put on some barrel condom thing. I think the majority of police shootings happen so spontaneously that this kind of tool isn't going to be useful. Otherwise they are likely going to use other means if there is time.
Really everyone jumps on the police shooting bandwagon, but considering just how many dangerous interactions happen between police and the public per year, the shootings are extremely rare, exceedingly rare. Which really shows other methods are deployed a large majority of the time.

[ringpriest]

The endless focus on "less-lethal" misses the point (or rather, all of the points); integrate police back into the community (in no small part by getting them the out of their cars more and turning traffic enforcement into it's own separate service with all the glamor and power of parking wardens), pay them as much more as you can afford, crush the whole "blue line" and militarized police bs back into the dust where it belongs, teach them how to de-escalate and go hand-to-hand when appropriate, and stop hiring people who are so worried about their own skins that they place their own safety (and privilege and power) above every other concern (including actually doing their job).

In short, practice Peelian Principles:

1. To prevent crime and disorder, as an alternative to their repression by military force and severity of legal punishment.
2. To recognise always that the power of the police to fulfil their functions and duties is dependent on public approval of their existence, actions and behaviour, and on their ability to secure and maintain public respect.
3. To recognise always that to secure and maintain the respect and approval of the public means also the securing of the willing co-operation of the public in the task of securing observance of laws.
4. To recognise always that the extent to which the co-operation of the public can be secured diminishes proportionately the necessity of the use of physical force and compulsion for achieving police objectives.
5. To seek and preserve public favour, not by pandering to public opinion, but by constantly demonstrating absolutely impartial service to law, in complete independence of policy, and without regard to the justice or injustice of the substance of individual laws, by ready offering of individual service and friendship to all members of the public without regard to their wealth or social standing, by ready exercise of courtesy and friendly good humour, and by ready offering of individual sacrifice in protecting and preserving life.
6. To use physical force only when the exercise of persuasion, advice and warning is found to be insufficient to obtain public co-operation to an extent necessary to secure observance of law or to restore order, and to use only the minimum degree of physical force which is necessary on any particular occasion for achieving a police objective.
7. To maintain at all times a relationship with the public that gives reality to the historic tradition that the police are the public and that the public are the police, the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full-time attention to duties which are incumbent on every citizen in the interests of community welfare and existence.
8. To recognise always the need for strict adherence to police-executive functions, and to refrain from even seeming to usurp the powers of the judiciary, of avenging individuals or the State, and of authoritatively judging guilt and punishing the guilty.
9. To recognise always that the test of police efficiency is the absence of crime and disorder, and not the visible evidence of police action in dealing with them.

[Mormolyce]

Or you could, I dunno, not draw your gun.