Europe starts to think the unthinkable: breaking up

[Slant]

The EU in this shape cannot work. We caused war all across our borders. Look at a map and realise why this eu cannot work.

Ah, so the EU forced all those wars... that's a new angle.

[Deleted]

Ah, so the EU forced all those wars... that's a new angle.

Well... we didn't need to support that mess in Ukraine, we took down gaddafi, we are still refusing to back up the only form of stability in Syria, we're still listening to us warhawks when it comes to russia. Yes... our choices.

[ShimmerSwirl]

This would be WW3 if it happened. Russia and Germany would ally, conquer Poland, and then attempt to take over the rest of Europe to ensure their own long term access to natural resources. Germany's weakness is their indefensible position; the best defense for them is a good offense. France is the wildcard, but since they don't really like the US I don't see who they would ally with outside of Germany/Russia too.

[Slant]

Well... we didn't need to support that mess in Ukraine, we took down gaddafi, we are still refusing to back up the only form of stability in Syria, we're still listening to us warhawks when it comes to russia. Yes... our choices.

The EU didn't support the mess in the Ukraine since they started shooting shit up, it wasn't the EU that took down Gaddafi, it was the crazy French and NATO countries scrambling to avoid an embarassment for the French, the EU will never cooperate with dictators like Assad, and that is a good thing, but neither is the EU responsible for their own civil war and we've stopped listening to US hawks a long time ago. How we deal with Russia is entirely our own decision.

So yes, while you could certainly make all those points if you don't look hard enough, none of them hold up once you look at the background.

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This would be WW3 if it happened. Russia and Germany would ally, conquer Poland, and then attempt to take over the rest of Europe to ensure their own long term access to natural resources. Germany's weakness is their indefensible position; the best defense for them is a good offense. France is the wildcard, but since they don't really like the US I don't see who they would ally with outside of Germany/Russia too.

Our best defense, as has been shown in the past 2k years and more specifically the last 70 years, is peace.

[Deleted]

Saying Syria is in a civil war should be a bannable offense.

[Deleted]

The EU didn't support the mess in the Ukraine since they started shooting shit up, it wasn't the EU that took down Gaddafi, it was the crazy French and NATO countries scrambling to avoid an embarassment for the French, the EU will never cooperate with dictators like Assad, and that is a good thing, but neither is the EU responsible for their own civil war and we've stopped listening to US hawks a long time ago. How we deal with Russia is entirely our own decision.

So yes, while you could certainly make all those points if you don't look hard enough, none of them hold up once you look at the background.

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Our best defense, as has been shown in the past 2k years and more specifically the last 70 years, is peace.

Yes we gave our political blessing to Maidan, saying we didn't would be shocking. We said nothing when an alliance of extremists and profiteers started building up because it would have benefit us.
Most of the EU did support the UN resolutions in Libya. Saying we didn't play a part in that is delirious.
The EU however, is pretty happy to cooperate with child beheaders and the ones that support them it seems.
The EU isn't listening to us warhawks and yet, we have NATO installations being built in eastern Europe for no reason whatsoever.

I'm sorry, I support the EU, but this isn't working.

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Saying Syria is in a civil war should be a bannable offense.

Absolutely agree with you.

[ShimmerSwirl]

The EU didn't support the mess in the Ukraine since they started shooting shit up, it wasn't the EU that took down Gaddafi, it was the crazy French and NATO countries scrambling to avoid an embarassment for the French, the EU will never cooperate with dictators like Assad, and that is a good thing, but neither is the EU responsible for their own civil war and we've stopped listening to US hawks a long time ago. How we deal with Russia is entirely our own decision.

So yes, while you could certainly make all those points if you don't look hard enough, none of them hold up once you look at the background.

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Our best defense, as has been shown in the past 2k years and more specifically the last 70 years, is peace.

Yes but peace has only been possible the last 70 years because there was no power strong enough in Europe to attempt anything after the devastation of WW2. And the US has artificially propped up Europe by giving them free access to the US market to help them rebuild. Germany is not going to accept being the general bank for all of Europe that props up the weaker countries, they have already shown that.

[Slant]

Saying Syria is in a civil war should be a bannable offense.

Ok, so it's... what, a war of conquest? In the case of IS yes, but that problem's root is even further away from the EU than Syria itself. Which was in a full blown civil war before IS joined the party. Do you even follow the news at all?

[Deleted]

I don't see any advantage to separating, but agreements should be revised. I still very much would like federalisation. Europe would become a world super power.
No french or german common language though. English is the only option, despite the UK not beeing in there. Well... theres ireland and soon... maybe scotland.

[Slant]

Yes but peace has only been possible the last 70 years because there was no power strong enough in Europe to attempt anything after the devastation of WW2. And the US has artificially propped up Europe by giving them free access to the US market to help them rebuild. Germany is not going to accept being the general bank for all of Europe that props up the weaker countries, they have already shown that.

That peace was facilitated by the US doesn't make it any less of a successful defense plan. Germany isn't under threat from anyone at the moment. Largely, because they are at peace with us. And the bank statement doesn't make any sense, considering we're literally keeping Greece alive...

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Yes we gave our political blessing to Maidan, saying we didn't would be shocking. We said nothing when an alliance of extremists and profiteers started building up because it would have benefit us.
Most of the EU did support the UN resolutions in Libya. Saying we didn't play a part in that is delirious.
The EU however, is pretty happy to cooperate with child beheaders and the ones that support them it seems.
The EU isn't listening to us warhawks and yet, we have NATO installations being built in eastern Europe for no reason whatsoever.

We gave political blessings to political movements, not war factions. The EU supported a UN resolution, the EU didn't call for a full on war in Lybia. That was France. I'm not sure which child beheaders you're talking about, so please elaborate. And those NATO installations are being built on the request of those NATO countries. Not the EU. NATO is not EU. Big difference. No reason whatsoever? They're scared. I think it's a baseless fear, but that doesn't reassure them. Cold hard steel and defensive turrets does seem to do the trick. So yeah, there is a reason. You just don't agree with it.

[Deleted]

well good that not a single World War was started because of some Shit between France and Germany

Well... a case can be made that in both situations tensions between them were building up, especially with WW2 where they indirectly helped Hitler get into power. But, the wars weren't directly started by them. I would say croatia/bosnia and austro-hungary started the first one and poland and germany, the second one.

Anyways... this is in no way close to the situation nowadays. France and germany are close allies and they know they need each other.

[Slant]

Well... a case can be made that in both situations tensions between them were building up, especially with WW2 where they indirectly helped Hitler get into power. But, the wars weren't directly started by them. I would say croatia/bosnia and austro-hungary started the first one and poland and germany, the second one.

Anyways... this is in no way close to the situation nowadays. France and germany are close allies.

Technically, both WW wouldn't have escalated to the level they had if it hadn't been for France and Germany. Ironically, it was always the same shit. Btw, Poland was just a victim. It wasn't anything to do with them, they were just in the way. What started that war is pretty much Germany looking for a fight. And they got one, just as they wished.

[Deleted]

Ok, so it's... what, a war of conquest? In the case of IS yes, but that problem's root is even further away from the EU than Syria itself. Which was in a full blown civil war before IS joined the party. Do you even follow the news at all?

Syria is battling against US sponsored and armed terrorist groups. It's another proxy war.

[ShimmerSwirl]

That peace was facilitated by the US doesn't make it any less of a successful defense plan. Germany isn't under threat from anyone at the moment. Largely, because they are at peace with us. And the bank statement doesn't make any sense, considering we're literally keeping Greece alive...

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We gave political blessings to political movements, not war factions. The EU supported a UN resolution, the EU didn't call for a full on war in Lybia. That was France. I'm not sure which child beheaders you're talking about, so please elaborate. And those NATO installations are being built on the request of those NATO countries. Not the EU. NATO is not EU. Big difference. No reason whatsoever? They're scared. I think it's a baseless fear, but that doesn't reassure them. Cold hard steel and defensive turrets does seem to do the trick. So yeah, there is a reason. You just don't agree with it.

Ironically, one of the main things keeping the US involved in Europe now at all is the very threat of a Russian/Germany alliance. Such an alliance could ultimately be a threat to the US itself, which they can't have. If Germany truly had peaceful intentions and was not viewed as a threat to become aggressive, the US would probably leave. The fact that the US still cares about Poland should tell you all you need to know about how they view the danger of Germany long term.

[Mayhem]

Ironically, one of the main things keeping the US involved in Europe now at all is the very threat of a Russian/Germany alliance. Such an alliance could ultimately be a threat to the US itself, which they can't have. If Germany truly had peaceful intentions and was not viewed as a threat to become aggressive, the US would probably leave. The fact that the US still cares about Poland should tell you all you need to know about how they view the danger of Germany long term.

That is the first time i ever read anything regarding germany being percieved as a threat furthermore a possible russian-german alliance.

[Deleted]

That peace was facilitated by the US doesn't make it any less of a successful defense plan. Germany isn't under threat from anyone at the moment. Largely, because they are at peace with us. And the bank statement doesn't make any sense, considering we're literally keeping Greece alive...

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We gave political blessings to political movements, not war factions. The EU supported a UN resolution, the EU didn't call for a full on war in Lybia. That was France. I'm not sure which child beheaders you're talking about, so please elaborate. And those NATO installations are being built on the request of those NATO countries. Not the EU. NATO is not EU. Big difference. No reason whatsoever? They're scared. I think it's a baseless fear, but that doesn't reassure them. Cold hard steel and defensive turrets does seem to do the trick. So yeah, there is a reason. You just don't agree with it.

Exactly this sort of "we gave political backup to Maidan not to the voulounteers fighting east" is the kind of lack of responsibility EU has shown.
We are either led by complete idiots that can't see 2 months ahead, or we're led by people that do not have Eu best interests at heart.

[Deleted]

Technically, both WW wouldn't have escalated to the level they had if it hadn't been for France and Germany. Ironically, it was always the same shit. Btw, Poland was just a victim. It wasn't anything to do with them, they were just in the way. What started that war is pretty much Germany looking for a fight. And they got one, just as they wished.

That isn´t 100% accurate. Germany had made a move on checkoslovakia and tensions were high. Their claims were not unfounded. Due to the dumbass agreement at the end of WW1, part of their territory was out of reach and the polish were taking out frustrations on them. Due to the tensions germany had built, poland decided they had a position of power and didn´t budge a centimeter on german proposals, wich were quite honestly justified in this case (not checkoslovakia´s though).
Poland wasn't innocent in this.

[Deleted]

I don't see any advantage to separating, but agreements should be revised. I still very much would like federalisation. Europe would become a world super power.
No french or german common language though. English is the only option, despite the UK not beeing in there. Well... theres ireland and soon... maybe scotland.

German is not that difficult to learn. :3

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Ironically, one of the main things keeping the US involved in Europe now at all is the very threat of a Russian/Germany alliance. Such an alliance could ultimately be a threat to the US itself, which they can't have. If Germany truly had peaceful intentions and was not viewed as a threat to become aggressive, the US would probably leave. The fact that the US still cares about Poland should tell you all you need to know about how they view the danger of Germany long term.

As long as Russia keeps going on it's current track I don't see any common ground besides trade / economy. Funny thing is - when Germany acts peaceful and does not to get involved in military actions, people say that Germany dodges responsibility. But Heaven forbid Germany starts acting more military - then it's the warmongering Germans again! Please stick to one opinion.

[Noradin]

Ah, so the EU forced all those wars... that's a new angle.

Why do you assume that when he uses "we" he means the EU?

[Deleted]

Why do you assume that when he uses "we" he means the EU?

I did though there's only so much blaming you can do. We are allowing this to happen.