Over 2000 guilds stuck at 3/10 mythic, was tuning 7 bosses to 54 traits a mistake?

[ping-pong]

You're ignoring the fact that this isn't how "it's always been". This expansion demands far more time to prepare for mythic raiding. You must invest a lot of extra time outside of raids to reach optimal power level for your character - and even then, you're dependant on luck. Previously, you pretty much only did some dailies for few weeks and then it was down to consumables. This isn't a subjective opinion - you objectively have to spend more hours in game to reach the same point you had in previous expansion.

There's also the problem that you're pretty much limited to a single spec unless you with the legendary lottery and grind a lot. If a boss is really bad for Fire, you cannot respec Frost without losing a decent amount of performance. You cannot really bring alts unless - again - they got lucky. Class balance is pretty messed up right now - overall charts might not look bad, but some bosses are absurdly skewed toward certain specs. Krosus is the perfect example, where half of caster specs have to be carried. It's even worse for tanks - better hope you have Druid to carry you through certain mechanics, otherwise it will be much harder. But nope, Blizzard's feedback was pretty much "we went a bit too far with magic damage, but it will be better in next tier! For now, bow to your furry overlords!"

Yeah, sounds about right. Mythic preparation should be doing some dailies for few weeks. Doesn't sound so mythic to me :P Go hit a few tennis balls for a few weeks and you'll be ready for Wimbledon. Seems today people want everything without having to work for it. Not just in gaming.

Some classes are bad for this fight, good for that fight. Overall in your raid you, in overwhelmingly most cases, have the composition that can clear mythic. It was not the case during the world first race, but complaining about anything right now is nothing but a sign that you are not playing optimally.

[Osmeric]

Yeah, sounds about right. Mythic preparation should be doing some dailies for few weeks. Doesn't sound so mythic to me :P Go hit a few tennis balls for a few weeks and you'll be ready for Wimbledon. Seems today people want everything without having to work for it. Not just in gaming.

"It should be" is not actually a valid argument. If something doesn't work, it doesn't work, even if you (or the devs) think it's the way it should be.

[epLe]

According to people in this thread, thousands of guilds will blast through the rest of mythic NH as soon as 7.2 hits when they get their BiS legendaries.
It is only those legendaries that make their guild stuck at 3/10.

/sarcasm

[markos82]

Krosus can, and has been, cleared even with ppl without 54 traits, without BIS legendaries. Mythic means be prepared, DPS check means be skilled with your class, which is what you should work on.
If you don't have 54 traits by now, you must have decided fairly recently to go into mythic. Some of my very causal friends whos highest achievement thus far is normal raid have 54 traits.
You gotta prepare your char for the mythic raiding. That's how it is, that's how it's always been, that's how it should be.
Skillwise, if you are complaining about Krosus at this time, you are not playing your class optimally. Work on your rotation and movement. One thing is knowing how to play your class, the other is doing it.

Again, read carefully, I said if you bring class that doesnt have high dps like Pala, frost Dk and so on you NEED TO HAVE 54 traits. How is that hard to understand. Retri pala is doing at least 30% more dps than moonkin with same ilvl, same amount of traits and same skill of a player. Now if you bring a moonkin that has 40-45 traits that difference will be even greater, but if you bring Retri Pala he would still do more dps, even if he has 35 points. So for a normal mythic guild, that doesnt have huge roster and players with more geared alts you do need everyone to have maxed out weapon or few traits from max.

Actually i have 54, 54, 43, 36 so nope, i havent just started doing and farming M+ and AP.....

Actually that is not true, ilvl difference is way to small, you can have a player that has never been to Mythic raid have higher ilvl than a player that cleared NH mythic because of all Titanforged gear. The only thing you needed prio Legion was to have good gear, most of all bis weapon and rrinkets. Now you need best legendary, maxed out weapon high ilvl and so on.
LOl, that is BS. If you really think huge difference on ST fight is just because of skill then you need to reinstall WoW....

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Yeah, sounds about right. Mythic preparation should be doing some dailies for few weeks. Doesn't sound so mythic to me :P Go hit a few tennis balls for a few weeks and you'll be ready for Wimbledon. Seems today people want everything without having to work for it. Not just in gaming.

Some classes are bad for this fight, good for that fight. Overall in your raid you, in overwhelmingly most cases, have the composition that can clear mythic. It was not the case during the world first race, but complaining about anything right now is nothing but a sign that you are not playing optimally.

That tennis analogy is flawed.... I play this game for 12 years+ now. Invested lots of time and i invest more time each expansion. For what you said to true i should have go to a legendary quest and get tennis racquet to increase my skill, get better shoes that give me speed and ability to hit balls faster, better shirt that soaks my sweat and cools me down so i dont get tired fast and so on, and to be lucky to get them, so its not about practice and hard work....

Get back to what you said 1st and then rephrase the sentence. Neah ill help you see your mistake. If you fill the raid with classes that are under performing and are BAD for that fight ( casters for Krosus ) no matter how good those players are they will still drag raid down and if you have many of them you wont make enrage timer, and then we get to the start of this thread. Yes, to kill some bosses MOST GUILDS NEED PLAYERS THAT HAVE MAXED OUT WEAPON.

[cFortyfive]

Again, read carefully, I said if you bring class that doesnt have high dps like Pala, frost Dk and so on you NEED TO HAVE 54 traits. How is that hard to understand. 900 retri pala is doing at least 30% more dps than moonkin with same ilvl, same amount of traits and same skill of a player. Now if you bring a moonkin that has 40-45 traits that difference will be even greater, but if you bring Retri Pala he would still do more dps, even if he has 35 points. So for a normal mythic guild, that doesnt have huge roster and players with more geared alts you do need everyone to have maxed out weapon or few traits from max.

How many more concession would you want to make ? So you don't have the right specs, you don't have the 54 traits, you don't have legendaries, you don't have the ilvl and you don't have the skill. To me the whole gearing system, legendaries and ap is total bullshit and I have no idea how many players at the mythic raid level actually enjoy those retarded mindless grinds but it is what it is.

[markos82]

I fail to see how reinstalling WoW would allow me to use SimCraft?

Using the Krosus example, as a moonkin you're there to do add damage and then boss damage. A frost DK/Ret Paladin, is there primarily for boss damage (and incidental cleave). So comparing the two is useless.

Depending on your raid comp, you adjust your strategy slightly, but all strategies for that boss should revolve around aiming to have your add spawns in melee where possible for that cleave damage. So less hard swapping is required.

If player skill is equal all should be doing fairly equally in their respective roles. You're trying to compare a tree to a bush.

Oh good, you know how to use simcraft, i mean good for you....

If you have players with brain you wont have adds or you will have few of the adds that will most likely be close to melee so they can be cleaved with the help from the ranged as they go back to position. So that again is kinda wrong....

And that is fine and again, would you bring 3 moonkins or 3 fire mages if you can instead of them bring 3 retri pala?


Not true again, if it where no guild would bench anyone on any fight, it would be bring skill not class which in Legion isnt true. Every guild wants to kill boss and every guild will bring best players on best classes for that boss, if they dont have option to chose from they need to settle with classes that are shit for some fight and then we come back to the start. MOST GUILDS NEED FOR EVERY PLAYER TO HAVE MAXED OUT WEAPON.

[schwank05]

Everything will be nerfed in 7.2 anyway from the introduction of more overall power.



They said they couldn't do this because they would run out of ways to introduce the HM but I believe that means they could've still done in more than one raid...Which they haven't...

Who cares if it's the same way to activate it. I say lets make it all Flex style and when you clear the content you are done. I could care less if I killed the heart on a boss in 10 different raids as long as I dont have to do the exact same raid on 3 difficulties.

[KaPe]

"It should be" is not actually a valid argument. If something doesn't work, it doesn't work, even if you (or the devs) think it's the way it should be.

Let's not forget that it's not just "lazy" people who are getting tired of current system. "You're just lazy" fails as an argument when even the World First crowd is disagreeing with the direction things are taking. These are the guys who should supposedly enjoy these increased requirements the most - since they finally "have to work for it". Seems like they really don't.

[Grimreaper]

I wholeheartedly disagree.

The guilds that run into these walls should look and evaluate where they are and how to improve further. Log analysis is step 1 to see obvious/micro improvements that can be made.

We are doing that, and the only way we are going to drasticly improve on our overall raid performance, is to replace half of our raiders with more competent players. Problem is that the more competent players dont want to join a guild that is stuck at 3/10.

Hitting these "walls" should be an opportunity to improve, not one to say....well lets wait until more gear.

Progress Mentality is super important o/.

Progress mentality isnt our issue (well, maybe for 2-3 players), it's lack of ability to press buttons whilst watching where you stand. Before we could overpower the bosses by compensating our lack of play with gear. Nowadays not so much, as the content is tuned for wf/tf/sockets.

But that's just my opinion. As elitist as it may seem, nobody likes a culture shift, or to realise they've reached a skill cap, but unfortunately without the harsh truth sometimes you won't have the desire to improve.

That i can agree with. People do need a big slap in the face in order to start working on improving themselves.

[Spotnick]

How quickly people forgot Gorefiend.

[kamuimac]

We are doing that, and the only way we are going to drasticly improve on our overall raid performance, is to replace half of our raiders with more competent players. Problem is that the more competent players dont want to join a guild that is stuck at 3/10.


Progress mentality isnt our issue

well clearly it is - instead recruiting new players teach ones you have how to perform better - but ye instead that its easier to complain eh ?

[Grimreaper]

well clearly it is - instead recruiting new players teach ones you have how to perform better - but ye instead that its easier to complain eh ?

You do realise not everyone has the same skill ceiling, right? Some people just cannot improve further regardless of effort put in.

[Toybox]

You do realise not everyone has the same skill ceiling, right? Some people just cannot improve further regardless of effort put in.

There's always going to be a point where player skill no longer allows them to get further through the content at current gear levels. If it's made a bit easier, and your guild gets over the 3/10M barrier, there will be another guild that's perhaps 10/10HC coming into Nighthold Mythic that'll get stuck at the same point you did... What then? Do you nerf it again?

[Grimreaper]

There's always going to be a point where player skill no longer allows them to get further through the content at current gear levels. If it's made a bit easier, and your guild gets over the 3/10M barrier, there will be another guild that's perhaps 10/10HC coming into Nighthold Mythic that'll get stuck at the same point you did... What then? Do you nerf it again?

It should nerf itself over time with gear. While that is technically still true, it does so to a much smaller degree.

[Bers3rk]

My guild has been stuck at 3/10 for a while now and we spent a month on chronomatic anomaly. I don't feel like any of the content tuning has been off and I don't see it as a problem. The things holding my guild back are lack of dedication, attendance, player toxicity, leadership and leadership communication, poor strategy and strategy implementation. The big problem for me is warcraftlogs. Our 3/10 mythic kills look terrible simply because I do what my raid leader tells me (very bad calls) and I suffer for it. The only reason I care about looking good on logs is because I want more than anything to move on to a guild with players who care. I'm perfectly capable of parsing high orange all the time but I don't play with a group that allows me to play to my potential.

[theyanger]

How quickly people forgot Gorefiend.

I didn't realize Gorefiend required you to throw 20+ hours a week outside of raids at the game to beat.

Oh wait, he didn't.

[ping-pong]

Again, read carefully, I said if you bring class that doesnt have high dps like Pala, frost Dk and so on you NEED TO HAVE 54 traits. How is that hard to understand. Retri pala is doing at least 30% more dps than moonkin with same ilvl, same amount of traits and same skill of a player. Now if you bring a moonkin that has 40-45 traits that difference will be even greater, but if you bring Retri Pala he would still do more dps, even if he has 35 points. So for a normal mythic guild, that doesnt have huge roster and players with more geared alts you do need everyone to have maxed out weapon or few traits from max.

Actually i have 54, 54, 43, 36 so nope, i havent just started doing and farming M+ and AP.....

Actually that is not true, ilvl difference is way to small, you can have a player that has never been to Mythic raid have higher ilvl than a player that cleared NH mythic because of all Titanforged gear. The only thing you needed prio Legion was to have good gear, most of all bis weapon and rrinkets. Now you need best legendary, maxed out weapon high ilvl and so on.
LOl, that is BS. If you really think huge difference on ST fight is just because of skill then you need to reinstall WoW....

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That tennis analogy is flawed.... I play this game for 12 years+ now. Invested lots of time and i invest more time each expansion. For what you said to true i should have go to a legendary quest and get tennis racquet to increase my skill, get better shoes that give me speed and ability to hit balls faster, better shirt that soaks my sweat and cools me down so i dont get tired fast and so on, and to be lucky to get them, so its not about practice and hard work....

Get back to what you said 1st and then rephrase the sentence. Neah ill help you see your mistake. If you fill the raid with classes that are under performing and are BAD for that fight ( casters for Krosus ) no matter how good those players are they will still drag raid down and if you have many of them you wont make enrage timer, and then we get to the start of this thread. Yes, to kill some bosses MOST GUILDS NEED PLAYERS THAT HAVE MAXED OUT WEAPON.

Dude, if you don't have 54 traits, you have been fishing or something similar. I honestly cannot imagine a player that is aiming for hc (so no mythic whatsoever) that doesn't have 54 traits by now. Even that would be slacking in preparation, let alone mythic raider.

Second, if you are mythic raider, there will hardly be better geared casual. He may have one-2 or even 3 better items by titanforged luck, but overall he will be under you.

Third, right now you don't need best legendaries to clear mythic nighthold. You don't even need maxed out weapon (although if you don't have one by now, mythic is not meant for you).

Fourth, when I speak of skill, I mean that if you give your character to someone from top guilds to play, they will pull consistently more dps then you on the same fight. So instead of whining, get better at squeezing more dps/hps. That's what the ones who clear do. Hell, even after a clean kill I check logs to see where I failed.

For the tennis analogy, even with all that, you still need to hit the freakin' ball for hours and hours each day, to eat properly, to work with physical trainer. So, to invest hell of a lot time. In tennis that would not grant you the equipment (you'd still have to buy them or get sponsors). In wow, investing hell of a lot of time will in most cases get you badass legendaries and full weapon on shitload of alts. So, all in all, it's easier to get mythic guldan then to go to wimbledon

That last paragraph of yours... I'll do some caps too. IF YOU DON'T HAVE AT LEAST ONE MAXED OUT WEAPON BY NOW, MYTHIC WAS NEVER MEANT FOR YOU. True story.

[merli]

I didn't realize Gorefiend required you to throw 20+ hours a week outside of raids at the game to beat.

Oh wait, he didn't.

Legion is the first time in WoW history where this is needed to raid and I really hate it. This is one point where Blizzard made a huge mistake and I hope they will change it in the future. Strangely many people say it's easy to reach 54 traits with only casually playing WoW. But I don't think that this huge amount of hours you need to invest into this game to just reach 54 traits should be called casually playing the game.

And even if you have 54 traits in one weapon you still can't switch specs because you would need to invest the same amount of time now into the other weapon. The person who implemented this feature into the game should be forced to do something completely useless every week for several hours to see how dumb this idea was. In every expansion of WoW it was enough to raid to get through the raid on the hardest difficulty but now suddenly this was changed.

Dude, if you don't have 54 traits, you have been fishing or something similar. I honestly cannot imagine a player that is aiming for hc (so no mythic whatsoever) that doesn't have 54 traits by now. Even that would be slacking in preparation, let alone mythic raider.

Many people in my mythic raid still don't have 54 traits by now and most of us were raiding since classic/bc. The bosses after the first three are hard but at the moment I don't see a reason to nerf them. I just think the Implementation of the artefact weapons was done really poorly.

[ping-pong]

It should nerf itself over time with gear. While that is technically still true, it does so to a much smaller degree.

Why do you have to clear Mythic?

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Many people in my mythic raid still don't have 54 traits by now and most of us were raiding since classic/bc. The bosses after the first three are hard but at the moment I don't see a reason to nerf them. I just think the Implementation of the artefact weapons was done really poorly.

No, artifact weapon is not done poorly. Sub-54 people have done poor preparation. You cannot run a marathon by not running. You cannot raid mythic by fishing. What were those people doing all this time? I'm genuinely interested how a person preparing for mythic raid managed not to have 54 traits this late into expansion. Instead of blaming the game, try to look objectively. People slacked. Their responsibility.

[Osmeric]

I am an advocate for the casual viewpoint on these forums, and my raiding main has been at 54 traits on its main spec for weeks now. If someone purports to be a mythic raider they have no excuse on that front.