Legendaries in 7.2

[shadousita]

already stuck with ring and shoulders, pretty underwhelming right now

[Tiberria]

The other thing of course to keep in mind now that most of the Resto legendaries are a lot closer in value is, what dictates which legendary we use might be what alternate pieces we have to replace the legendary with in those slots. For example, if you have a 925 belt already, it would make much less sense to use the legendary belt over say Prydaz if you only have an 885 neck to put in that slot. The availability of replacement items in slots and/or the availability of tier pieces to be able to use certain legendaries without losing 4 piece will very likely dictate what legendaries to wear and how viable switching them out on a situational basis really is. For example, you might want to use Ekowraith on a fight, but if you can't take off your Mythic tier chest without losing 4 piece or having to use a normal mode tier piece in another slot to keep it, it won't be worth it.

The other thing as well when the next tier set is available is - it will be possible to wear 4 pieces of 1 tier set and 2 pieces of another. In particular, 4 piece T20 + 2 piece T19 looks like it could be a really strong combination, especially since both buffs synergize (triggered on WG casts) - at least until you have high enough ilvl pieces that using T19 stuff isn't worth it anymore. Using a 4pc + 2pc combination will basically preclude any chest, leg, helm, cloak, shoulder or glove legendary items period, or at least it will greatly increase the opportunity cost over using those vs using other slot legendaries.

[SafariDiscoLion]

For example, you might want to use Ekowraith on a fight, but if you can't take off your Mythic tier chest without losing 4 piece or having to use a normal mode tier piece in another slot to keep it, it won't be worth it.

I don't see how losing 20~ ilvl in one slot isn't worth 50+ in another on top of Eko's bonus. If you did have another legendary to use but its bonus does absolutely nothing for you in a fight, gaining the bonus of something like Eko - which has a LOT more stat gain the other slots being a chest piece - is still worth more than a few ilvl by wearing a lower level tier piece. And the T20 bonuses are nothing special.

The other thing as well when the next tier set is available is - it will be possible to wear 4 pieces of 1 tier set and 2 pieces of another. In particular, 4 piece T20 + 2 piece T19 looks like it could be a really strong combination, especially since both buffs synergize (triggered on WG casts) - at least until you have high enough ilvl pieces that using T19 stuff isn't worth it anymore. Using a 4pc + 2pc combination will basically preclude any chest, leg, helm, cloak, shoulder or glove legendary items period, or at least it will greatly increase the opportunity cost over using those vs using other slot legendaries.

Huh? The T20 set bonuses are both based on Swiftmend, nothing to do with WG, and they're both crap.

Swiftmend has up to 40% reduced cooldown based on the current health of your target. More reduced cooldown when used on a lower health target.

Swiftmend increases your Efflorescence healing by 300% for 8 seconds.

http://www.wowhead.com/news=260284/7...20-set-bonuses

And aside from that, your logic is really goofy. You're saying 2pc T19 is better than any legendary effect, when that's not only dubious at best, but you're giving up a LOT of ilvl by just straight not wearing a legendary in those slots. If your choice is between two 900 T19 pieces or one old piece and a 970 legendary, you'd be a complete moron to not take the legendary for both the effect (possibly matching or beating the T19 2pc) and the huge boost in stats.

Like, I get part of what you're saying, that having choice in the legendaries will also have to take tier pieces into account, but every one of your examples is either flat-out false or mathematically unsound, including your reasoning on the belt being super OP.

[Tiberria]

I don't see how losing 20~ ilvl in one slot isn't worth 50+ in another on top of Eko's bonus. If you did have another legendary to use but its bonus does absolutely nothing for you in a fight, gaining the bonus of something like Eko - which has a LOT more stat gain the other slots being a chest piece - is still worth more than a few ilvl by wearing a lower level tier piece. And the T20 bonuses are nothing special.



Huh? The T20 set bonuses are both based on Swiftmend, nothing to do with WG, and they're both crap.



http://www.wowhead.com/news=260284/7...20-set-bonuses

The issue though is - with the buff to several underperforming legendaries, all of the legendaries - except for maybe X'oni and Sephuz - now have reasonably decent bonuses and none of them are complete garbage. That makes losing 20 ilvl in one slot when you don't have to lose it in another slot by just using a different legendary more difficult to absorb than it is on live, where you're giving up 5%+ of your throughput by equipping something like Aman'thul, meaning you avoid it regardless of the rest of your gear.

I was confused, I thought T20 4pc was based on WG casts instead of SM for some reason. At any rate, the 4 piece is far from crap, and the 2 piece isn't really either. Let's say you can game the 2 piece enough so that you get a Swiftmend cast every 24 seconds. That means that you are buffing Efflo by an average of 100%. Efflo is probably 5-8% of your healing, so that is a 5-8% throughput boost. It's at least as good as our current 4 piece, and potentially better with the mastery synergy with Spring Blossoms. The only thing particularly bad about the T20 bonuses is the fact that the 2 piece is garbage as a standalone (i.e. it might not be worth breaking T19 until we have 4 pc) and the fact that it probably removes the legendary wrists from the table as a legendary option, because using the wrists makes the 2 piece useless, and reduces the value of the 4 piece considerably.

[SafariDiscoLion]

The issue though is - with the buff to several underperforming legendaries, all of the legendaries - except for maybe X'oni and Sephuz - now have reasonably decent bonuses and none of them are complete garbage. That makes losing 20 ilvl in one slot when you don't have to lose it in another slot by just using a different legendary more difficult to absorb than it is on live, where you're giving up 5%+ of your throughput by equipping something like Aman'thul, meaning you avoid it regardless of the rest of your gear.

And if the "different legendary" does absolutely nothing for you in the fight you're on? Why on earth would you use not only a legendary not doing anything for you but ALSO lower ilvl pieces in other slots? The logic here just doesn't make any sense.

Let's say you can game the 2 piece enough so that you get a Swiftmend cast every 24 seconds. That means that you are buffing Efflo by an average of 100%. Efflo is probably 5-8% of your healing, so that is a 5-8% throughput boost.

No no no no no no no no. Take this line of thinking and throw it out the window. This is NOT how healing throughput works. You're not "buffing Efflo by an average of 100%", unless EVERY SINGLE TICK of Efflo when boosted gets full effect and has the same overhealing as the rest of Efflo, which by nature of healing is not going to happen. This is the same shakey reasoning you used with the belt. Having a healing spell hit harder doesn't mean you will have healed that much more on a fight when you account for overhealing. You can only heal as much damage as people are taking in and stronger spells doesn't mean stronger healing, it means the possiblity of stronger healing. We are not DPSers where every drop counts.

http://pastebin.com/raw/B583uEwp

It's at least as good as our current 4 piece, and potentially better with the mastery synergy with Spring Blossoms.

Again, really dubious logic here. It doesn't have "synergy" with SB any more than it has synergy with our mastery as a whole. Our current 4pc can give as much as 5% to 15% healing for a fight, on top of efficiency with having the free Rejuv casts giving you mana and GCDs for other spells. Absolutely no way the new 4pc will come anywhere close to that, on top of being much, much harder to use.

[Grenor]

The issue though is - with the buff to several underperforming legendaries, all of the legendaries - except for maybe X'oni and Sephuz - now have reasonably decent bonuses and none of them are complete garbage. That makes losing 20 ilvl in one slot when you don't have to lose it in another slot by just using a different legendary more difficult to absorb than it is on live, where you're giving up 5%+ of your throughput by equipping something like Aman'thul, meaning you avoid it regardless of the rest of your gear.

I was confused, I thought T20 4pc was based on WG casts instead of SM for some reason. At any rate, the 4 piece is far from crap, and the 2 piece isn't really either. Let's say you can game the 2 piece enough so that you get a Swiftmend cast every 24 seconds. That means that you are buffing Efflo by an average of 100%. Efflo is probably 5-8% of your healing, so that is a 5-8% throughput boost. It's at least as good as our current 4 piece, and potentially better with the mastery synergy with Spring Blossoms. The only thing particularly bad about the T20 bonuses is the fact that the 2 piece is garbage as a standalone (i.e. it might not be worth breaking T19 until we have 4 pc) and the fact that it probably removes the legendary wrists from the table as a legendary option, because using the wrists makes the 2 piece useless, and reduces the value of the 4 piece considerably.

You did consider that efllo is in most cases the heal with the most overheal? Additionally you are required to make a choice how you use swiftmend with 2/4pc? Do you use it as emergency heal (what would be supported by 2pc) or do you use it when you need groupheal (supported by 4pc). The case that both function work perfectly together is rare.

[Tiberria]

You did consider that efllo is in most cases the heal with the most overheal? Additionally you are required to make a choice how you use swiftmend with 2/4pc? Do you use it as emergency heal (what would be supported by 2pc) or do you use it when you need groupheal (supported by 4pc). The case that both function work perfectly together is rare.

Sure, Efflo can have high overheal. However, it's not like it runs at 70%+ overheal on any fight where healing is relevant. It's still a very significant throughput buff. Plus, the 2 piece design doesn't really punish you in terms of the synergy. Let's say SM comes off CD, and everyone is at 90% HP. You can either use SM and get the Efflo buff right away, or you can sit on it for a more appropriate time to use Swiftmend. If you wait 6 seconds and then get a SM off on a 50% HP target, you then get compensated with a 6 second reduction in the CD of the next Swiftmend. The 2 piece just lets you have that extra flexibility/compensation for timing it better. It's just that the 2 piece is god awful on its own until you have 4 piece.

- - - Updated - - -

And if the "different legendary" does absolutely nothing for you in the fight you're on? Why on earth would you use not only a legendary not doing anything for you but ALSO lower ilvl pieces in other slots? The logic here just doesn't make any sense.



No no no no no no no no. Take this line of thinking and throw it out the window. This is NOT how healing throughput works. You're not "buffing Efflo by an average of 100%", unless EVERY SINGLE TICK of Efflo when boosted gets full effect and has the same overhealing as the rest of Efflo, which by nature of healing is not going to happen. This is the same shakey reasoning you used with the belt. Having a healing spell hit harder doesn't mean you will have healed that much more on a fight when you account for overhealing. You can only heal as much damage as people are taking in and stronger spells doesn't mean stronger healing, it means the possiblity of stronger healing. We are not DPSers where every drop counts.

http://pastebin.com/raw/B583uEwp



Again, really dubious logic here. It doesn't have "synergy" with SB any more than it has synergy with our mastery as a whole. Our current 4pc can give as much as 5% to 15% healing for a fight, on top of efficiency with having the free Rejuv casts giving you mana and GCDs for other spells. Absolutely no way the new 4pc will come anywhere close to that, on top of being much, much harder to use.

What legendary "does absolutely nothing for the fight you're on"? Unless you're talking about Sephuz on a 0 dispel fight or something, they are all fairly universal in giving their bonuses.

People overrate the "overhealing argument" to all hell when evaluating things and really lead themselves in the wrong direction. You act as if Efflo overheals 2-3x more than the rest of our toolkit. It doesn't. For example - https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...aling&source=7. ~38% Efflo overheal, ~32% Rejuv overheal. This is despite Spell Blade being a fight where people don't take damage for large portions of time. Sure, you can say that maybe the theoretical raw throughput component of an Efflo buff is slightly overrated due to the overheal factor. You can't just arbitrarily dismiss it or arbitrarily cut the value in half or something either. Unless you are looking at a Heroic Star Augar log or something similarly ridiculous, the numbers do not support that. It's like arguing that the Map trinket is complete garbage because the extra healing added by the proc is going to be 50%+ overheal. Not only that, the new 4 piece is at least somewhat CONTROLLABLE. If the 300% buff is going to overheal, or if you don't have an Efflo down for whatever reason, you can hold off on casting Swiftmend for a few seconds for more favorable conditions. You then get compensated for that (assuming you use Swiftmend on a target that actually needs healing) with the 2 piece CD reduction.

And yes, it has explicit synergy with Spring Blossoms. The Spring Blossoms effect is going to be on the people that are being healed with Efflo, which (at least after the first tick they receive) guarantees that they will have at least one mastery effect present for the extra healing gained from the 4 piece. The new set bonuses also give you more HPM/mana efficiency by just making an existing AoE heal that is essentially rotational heal for more. That extra throughput also saves mana and GCDs because we don't then need to heal those targets as much with other spells. It's really the same thing. Is it more difficult to use? Sure, but anything is going to be more difficult to use than a set bonus that just passively procs off spells we would be casting to begin with. However, the downside to a totally passive set bonus is that it doesn't add gameplay or playstyle changes of any kind to the spec, which frankly is boring. I would prefer active set bonuses that you can min-max/game over passive procs any day of the week.

[SafariDiscoLion]

People overrate the "overhealing argument" to all hell when evaluating things and really lead themselves in the wrong direction. You act as if Efflo overheals 2-3x more than the rest of our toolkit. It doesn't. For example - https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...aling&source=7. ~38% Efflo overheal, ~32% Rejuv overheal. This is despite Spell Blade being a fight where people don't take damage for large portions of time. Sure, you can say that maybe the theoretical raw throughput component of an Efflo buff is slightly overrated due to the overheal factor. You can't just arbitrarily dismiss it or arbitrarily cut the value in half or something either. Unless you are looking at a Heroic Star Augar log or something similarly ridiculous, the numbers do not support that. It's like arguing that the Map trinket is complete garbage because the extra healing added by the proc is going to be 50%+ overheal. Not only that, the new 4 piece is at least somewhat CONTROLLABLE. If the 300% buff is going to overheal, or if you don't have an Efflo down for whatever reason, you can hold off on casting Swiftmend for a few seconds for more favorable conditions. You then get compensated for that (assuming you use Swiftmend on a target that actually needs healing) with the 2 piece CD reduction.

If your Efflo in that fight had been healing for 100% more, you would have gotten less healing from everything else because there would have been simply less to heal. In particular, your Rejuvs would have had even more overhealing, since so many of those are free from your ring, 4pc, and PotA. If we were other healing classes, benefits to our short term burst healing would mean a LOT more, as that would be all or most of what we actually have to heal with, but Efflo will still be on the ground and Rejuvs still ticking after the 4pc bonus fades.

I'm not "arbitrarily dismissing it", I'm saying it will never be an actual 100% average increase in Efflo healing and a flat increase to your throughput compared to not having it unless you're using it on the healing dummies in your order hall that can't be healed to full, and that your math and reasoning behind it is disengenuous and misleading. Those kinds of perfect situations will never, ever happen, and saying that "it's a 100% average increase to Efflo so I would have done 10m more healing" is at best faulty logic and, at worst, spreading false information to people who don't know better. Was there somehow 10m damage taken that didn't get healed up? Did people die because they weren't healed? Did people only not die because your raid happened to have a Boomkin who gave one of your raid's healers extra mana, so they had mana to throw out extra spells? If the answer to any of those is no, then the extra healing would have gotten you a net gain of absolutely nothing.

[NotesChords]

I was under the impression shoulders did not work with: 4p, arch druid, tearstone procced rejuvs. Is that still the case?

I currently have them, but have never put them on to even bother testing. I have tearstone and velens which i obviously love and use and wouldn't trade for anything in almost any situation to be honest. I have bracers, they are ok, I have belt, its trash and still going to be trash, unless your paladin is trash, in which case they are definitely better, but maybe you should consider replacing your paladin...

I also really don't buy that the shoulders will be better than tearstone. Lets assume you use Velens so you only get to wear one... I think id rather have more rejuvs (proccing with 2p mastery) on potentially low health targets than longer rejuvs on full health targets. If they don't interact with arch druid or 4p then I'm even less happy. If you cast a rejuv on someone and it actually gains 15 seconds, i question if that person ever needed a rejuv in the first place if it healed them at full health 5 times... I also don't like the mana efficiency argument because tearstone actually gives a full rejuv and the shoulders only give you 15 seconds, MAYBE, where 5 ticks did nothing, so ring still seems stronger from a mana standpoint. Also LOL mana, isn't this why we use lower ilvl stat sticks over all these mana trinkets cause mana is not really an issue if you play right.

TLDR: velen and ring bis, everything else better but not best.

[fallenangel-succ]

If your Efflo in that fight had been healing for 100% more, you would have gotten less healing from everything else because there would have been simply less to heal. In particular, your Rejuvs would have had even more overhealing, since so many of those are free from your ring, 4pc, and PotA. If we were other healing classes, benefits to our short term burst healing would mean a LOT more, as that would be all or most of what we actually have to heal with, but Efflo will still be on the ground and Rejuvs still ticking after the 4pc bonus fades.

I'm not "arbitrarily dismissing it", I'm saying it will never be an actual 100% average increase in Efflo healing and a flat increase to your throughput compared to not having it unless you're using it on the healing dummies in your order hall that can't be healed to full, and that your math and reasoning behind it is disengenuous and misleading. Those kinds of perfect situations will never, ever happen, and saying that "it's a 100% average increase to Efflo so I would have done 10m more healing" is at best faulty logic and, at worst, spreading false information to people who don't know better. Was there somehow 10m damage taken that didn't get healed up? Did people die because they weren't healed? Did people only not die because your raid happened to have a Boomkin who gave one of your raid's healers extra mana, so they had mana to throw out extra spells? If the answer to any of those is no, then the extra healing would have gotten you a net gain of absolutely nothing.

How is this different to the free Rejuvs of T19? Sure, every healing effect makes every other weaker. It doesn't mean you can't evaluate them or dismiss them as not useful.

[Tiberria]

How is this different to the free Rejuvs of T19? Sure, every healing effect makes every other weaker. It doesn't mean you can't evaluate them or dismiss them as not useful.

Exactly, you can take that same argument and say that every gear upgrade past the point where you have the minimum required throughput to complete the fight is useless/adds nothing/steals from other spells or other healers. You do need to be able to attempt a mathematical evaluation. Sure, I understand the argument that Lifebloom healing has a higher propensity to overheal than some other healing sources. However, the belt is mathematically about THREE TIMES as much raw throughput as the nerfed Tearstone for example in 7.2.

If you're going to argue that the added throughput is still useless (same with the Efflo added throughput with T20), Safari needs to provide legitimate logs showing Lifebloom/Efflo overhealing exceeding that of Rejuv, WG, etc by a factor of more than 3:1. Otherwise, it's a logical fallacy. I've looked at my own logs, and I'm seeing maybe 20-25% more overheal on LB/Efflo at best, not 300%. Post some logs that prove otherwise.

[Cheze]

it doesn't follow from current logs showing ~25% overheal on lifebloom that the healing provided by the 7.2 belt would be utilized 75% efficiently; if there's bad logic going on in this thread that surely is an example

I think the belt will be really good; I actually think it's kinda underrated now and it gets a substantial buff. But the idea that a random, low-proc-chance for a large heal would wind up creating a lot of overhealing shouldn't really be controversial

[Tiberria]

But the idea that a random, low-proc-chance for a large heal would wind up creating a lot of overhealing shouldn't really be controversial

Definitely, but I think you also have to quantify the degree of overhealing that these extra ticks will produce in a typical Mythic raiding situation. If people are being hyperbolic about the 70%+ overhealing situation, and these extra blooms will only really overheal 50%, the belt is a top tier legendary that beats Tearstone by a significant margin. We might have to wait until the patch is live and we have actual logs to look at, but I strongly suspect that it will end up a top 3-4 legendary.

[saradonin]

I think X'oni's Caress might turn to be better than it seems - with 4-5 Rejuvs rolling on the group this might be a lifesaver during moments of heavy tank damage. Unfortunately in it's current state usefulness is very situational and limited to rather long Ironbark cd. With the incoming changes it certainly will not contribute much to a general throughput, but thanks to reduced cooldown use of it can be much more flexible.

Also LOL mana, isn't this why we use lower ilvl stat sticks over all these mana trinkets cause mana is not really an issue if you play right.

We don't use mana trinkets because they're absolute trash right now with only Darkmoon Deck being half-decent: Cocoon just doesn't give enough regen to justify a slot and 10 paralysis, both Ephemeral Paradox and Amalgam’s 7th Spine are based on the spell we don't ever use. If there was anything even half as strong as Demonic Phylactery (cutting roughly 25% of the Rejuv mana cost) it would be unquestionable BiS.

[Deleted]

For me its a game of getting out as much as possible from my 100% Mana aswell as react as quickly as possible to snipe as much as I can and therefor i go with:

Shoulders + Ring or Shoulders + Wrists depending on the fight.

Trinket and Neck have also some potentinal aswell as belt but i would rank them tier 2.

Trinket could also be Tier 1 but i cannot go without the three lovely legs. Hard live I guess.

[Doogler]

I just got my 4th legendary which leaves me with the lovely lineup of:

1) X'oni's
2) Edraith
3) Sephuz
4) Ekowraith

I am obviously using the Edraith but I can't decide between the sephuz and ekowraith. Currently not using a tier chest and have 885s for the ring and chest that I would use instead. I am guessing that right now Ekowraith is the way to go? How about after the changes?

Of course my mage that I do not play that much got his 2 bis legendaries from the first 2 drops. And with Ekowraith and Sephuz I cannot even get quick offspec drops!

[Tiberria]

I just got my 4th legendary which leaves me with the lovely lineup of:

1) X'oni's
2) Edraith
3) Sephuz
4) Ekowraith

I am obviously using the Edraith but I can't decide between the sephuz and ekowraith. Currently not using a tier chest and have 885s for the ring and chest that I would use instead. I am guessing that right now Ekowraith is the way to go? How about after the changes?

Of course my mage that I do not play that much got his 2 bis legendaries from the first 2 drops. And with Ekowraith and Sephuz I cannot even get quick offspec drops!

Ekowraith is going to be the superior legendary 9 times out of 10 outside of the situational cases where you can proc Sephuz reliably. The buff to Ysera's Gift is probably worth like +2% throughput, plus the utility of +4.5% damage reduction or +12% movement speed plus the extra pure stats from using a 940 chest. Even after 7.2 with the Sephuz buff, it's still only going to come ahead of Ekowraith when you can proc it something approaching 50% of its maximum uptime (i.e. you would have to be able to dispel or apply a CC effect at least one a minute) - that just isn't going to be realistic on most current raid encounters.

[Deleted]

I'm trying to find what leg I will use when 7.2 will be live and have some trouble about it.

I have 6 légendaries :

Oneth
Promise of Elune
IFE ring
Ekowraith
Sephuz
Resto boots

Currently I'm using Oneth and IFE in raid and Oneth and Sephuz on M+

With the buff of POE I'm thinking of using POE and IFE on ST. Is it a good idea? Is POE worth comparing to Oneth?

[Kluian05]

I'm trying to find what leg I will use when 7.2 will be live and have some trouble about it.

I have 6 légendaries :

Oneth
Promise of Elune
IFE ring
Ekowraith
Sephuz
Resto boots

Currently I'm using Oneth and IFE in raid and Oneth and Sephuz on M+

With the buff of POE I'm thinking of using POE and IFE on ST. Is it a good idea? Is POE worth comparing to Oneth?

At most PoE will do ~3% dmg increase on single target. OI does more based on my own personal logs.

[foibooze]

Currently I'm using Oneth and IFE in raid and Oneth and Sephuz on M+

what? I hope u gearswap with IFE v sephuz aswell :P

part from that: POE should win over oneth in a pure ST patchwerk. Although there are not any fights where you can actually stand still 100% so oneth is probably still better.