Is frost op?

[kheath812]

Well I never said anything remotely close to "frost is OP". However, I do think that even without gimmicks like 2xIL, it will be better than Arcane and Fire, not entirely based on Patchwerk performance, but based on encounter structure. Arcane will indeed be much better on burst/spread AoE (if you can get in range and properly position) and Fire at mobs that can be flamestriked and ignited consistently, but the real issues arise when you get to encounters like the last 3 in NH.

I'm not saying it's not doable with Arcane and Fire, but you simply need to work much, much harder and the failure possibility is much higher for the same or lower results. Mechanics succeed each other sometimes so fast you simply don't have time for a full, flawless RoP/AP burn as Arcane for example, even if you're a very good, top player that is able to plan accordingly. There is a certain point where delaying too much your burst will result in just way too much DPS loss, even worse, fewer CDs/encounter. The top Arcane parses are extremely lucky, even more so than the usual, it's much harder to get a Whispers proc inside RoP/AP than inside Icy Veins, and let's just be honest, it's easier to deal with mechanics when you have Shimmer or Ice Floes, shorter casts and way more instants. Meanwhile, Arcane is somewhat stuck with Slipstream, although Shimmer is also decent when used correctly.


Overall, as a TL;DR, I think that on progress and on movement fights, which I sadly assume it will be the case in the future more and more often, Frost has better tools than the other 2 specs, and Blizzard in their infinite wisdom, also made them hit harder in average. The other 2 specs have strengths and IMO none of the 3 specs is exceptional overall, but Frost is jut the easier, more comfortable spec for progression.

frost being better than fire and arcane doesnt make it op as so many people seem to think. it still struggles behind many melee and isnt even on top of the logs. even when it deserves to be for how punishing it is to play.

Fire dominates so hard on aoe...but when it comes to ST...I don't think frost is OP but fire is just sh..t at same gear level. This would suck less if we didn't put so many APs on one spec...Can't wait for 7.2. Ready to dump fire and all.

any "aoe" fight that isnt a 30 mob joke pad-fest like skorpyron, fire doesnt "dominate". frost death knights, elemental shamans, fury warriors, hunters, shadow priests, ww monks, affliction locks, and even moonkins are all higher than fire mages on every other fight with adds. fire mages do well on one fight (when they actually arent, because theyre just padding instead of actually doing the fight properly) and suddently fire mages are aoe gods? how about just bring a frost dk that does more aoe damage and can still single target at the same time?

[stevenho]

Where dougle IL (which will be removed) boosts Frost dps by around 100k.

Not even half of that.

[Deleted]

Not even half of that.

60-110k DPS depends on how good u are

[stevenho]

More like 20k on a 6+ minute fight with any adds.

[Deleted]

More like 20k on a 6+ minute fight with any adds.

Are u serious? U seems to be a guy who have no idea how to use double IL. It is nearly 100k dps increase on ST fight, and may be up to 300k dps increase on bosses with adds... Go read some forums, and ask smarter ppl than u are about it before u spread such a bullshit s on forums

Here is APL for double IL try it: http://pastebin.com/enmk0r9D

[Deleted]

Are u serious? U seems to be a guy who have no idea how to use double IL. It is nearly 100k dps increase on ST fight, and may be up to 300k dps increase on bosses with adds... Go read some forums, and ask smarter ppl than u are about it before u spread such a bullshit s on forums

Here is APL for double IL try it: http://pastebin.com/enmk0r9D

you'd be right if you could do it 100% of the time on a fight and the cleaving ice lance would get full shatter dmg from the double ice lance thing, at best its an overall 5-10% increase, and fyi, the double ice lance thing is a pure ST dps gain, what gives you the ability to double ice lance is winter's chill that is put on the target by your brainbreeze proc, since flurry only hit 1 target then only 1 target will get the debuff, so the main target will get the double ice lance for full shatter dmg where as the cleaved target will only get dmg equal to an ice lance casted without winter's chill or fingers of frost proc, if that APL says that you gain that big of a dps upgrade for ST and cleave then that APL is wrong bcoz its literally impossible to gain that much from it, maybe you should follow your own advise and ask ppl smarter than your before you spread such BS on forums.

[Yoshibellbel]

Can confirm, Frost is balanced.

[stevenho]

Are u serious? U seems to be a guy who have no idea how to use double IL. It is nearly 100k dps increase on ST fight, and may be up to 300k dps increase on bosses with adds... Go read some forums, and ask smarter ppl than u are about it before u spread such a bullshit s on forums

Here is APL for double IL try it: http://pastebin.com/enmk0r9D

Sorry my friend but just the fact that you think its 300k on fights with adds makes all your posts invalid... As pointed above second target doesn't benefit from shatters...
Thanks for pasting the APL from alter time, I'm pretty active there and ran it many times since it first appeared many weeks ago.

So yeah, you can stop posting already.

[Frostyspeed]

Frost is strong as fuck. In a stand still patchwerk environment, frost mages have the potential be top #1 DPS of all classes. However, in Nighthold, there are a lot of things to fuck ranged over that do not do the same to melee, as a result, melee get to do more DPS. A perfect example of a patchwerk fight is Star Augur. https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/11#boss=1863 Fire Mages are middle pack and Frost mages are top tier. Thats how it actually is. So yes, frost mages are 'OP'. They do a lot of damage without having legendaries and with BiS legendaries, they do some batshit insane single target DPS.

I would recommend to get 54 traits in frost. Double Ice Lance is not something 'minor'. I know its anecdotal but i consistently out DPS my sim by 20k with a longer duration that doesnt bias my spell CD uptime (i did 7 mins instead of 5m, so CD %uptime is the same). In other words, double ice lance gives you around an extra 20k DPS and thats WITHOUT legendaries. Im currently 906 equipped ilevel, using Ice Time (shoulders) with fire DB helm on frost spec and I have done 730k DPS on a dummy over 7 mins with lust/pots/flask/food. Thats pretty insane imo and would consider it rather OP.

[Deleted]

It's not OP... it's the best mage spec though. Bad news, it requires specific gear and legendaries to shine vs real top dogs (DH, DK, rogues, warriors etc.). Good news, it's still better than Arcane/Fire for single target even when not at 54 traits and with dumb generic legendaries. Arcane and Fire are just that bad, curse my bad judgment having loot spec on them for so long, as for AP, I just farmed my soul off and hey, 3 maxed artifacts, hated each second of MoS.

DH's and DK's are also, only good with certain legendaries though. I mean, all you have to do is check the class forum and you'll notice the whiney posts about people not having the bis legendary to make the class work.

[Deleted]

Frost is strong as fuck. In a stand still patchwerk environment, frost mages have the potential be top #1 DPS of all classes. However, in Nighthold, there are a lot of things to fuck ranged over that do not do the same to melee, as a result, melee get to do more DPS. A perfect example of a patchwerk fight is Star Augur. https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/11#boss=1863 Fire Mages are middle pack and Frost mages are top tier. Thats how it actually is. So yes, frost mages are 'OP'. They do a lot of damage without having legendaries and with BiS legendaries, they do some batshit insane single target DPS.

I would recommend to get 54 traits in frost. Double Ice Lance is not something 'minor'. I know its anecdotal but i consistently out DPS my sim by 20k with a longer duration that doesnt bias my spell CD uptime (i did 7 mins instead of 5m, so CD %uptime is the same). In other words, double ice lance gives you around an extra 20k DPS and thats WITHOUT legendaries. Im currently 906 equipped ilevel, using Ice Time (shoulders) with fire DB helm on frost spec and I have done 730k DPS on a dummy over 7 mins with lust/pots/flask/food. Thats pretty insane imo and would consider it rather OP.

frost is strong but hardly OP, its aoe is way too weak for it to be OP, nighthold just happen to be an instance that is perfectly tailored for classes with strong ST and cleave capabilities, and frost is 1 of the few ranged classes that fit into that area.

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DH's and DK's are also, only good with certain legendaries though. I mean, all you have to do is check the class forum and you'll notice the whiney posts about people not having the bis legendary to make the class work.

well, to be fair, in nighthold, being a melee dps is worth more than any legendary you could ever possibly get, so that argument, atleast for melee, is sorta moot but ofc, optimal legendaries are optimal for a reason.

[Frostyspeed]

frost is strong but hardly OP, its aoe is way too weak for it to be OP, nighthold just happen to be an instance that is perfectly tailored for classes with strong ST and cleave capabilities, and frost is 1 of the few ranged classes that fit into that area.

Well yes, but a spec is only OP relative to the raid its in. So the current state of frost in its current raiding environment makes it that strong. Especially the fact that the 3 hardest mythic bosses, 2 of them are almost ideal for frost, and the 3rd (gul'dan) is still really good for frost, just not as good as Elisande and Star Augur

[Imaskar]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...=80&bracket=22
if you limit ilvl and percentile to a reasonable level, you'll see that frost is not even top among casters, not to mention melee.

[stevenho]

Why would you limit anything to a level of 3/10 players?

[Imaskar]

Because this is the point when you need good performance the most? If you're 10/10 already, your dps doesn't matter.

[Cracked]

Anyway, wrong question. Frost is not OP when compared to other classes, on some fights it barely keeps up, but the real question is.. why are Arcane and Fire so bad?

[Deleted]

Anyway, wrong question. Frost is not OP when compared to other classes, on some fights it barely keeps up, but the real question is.. why are Arcane and Fire so bad?

aye that is the question, and i think it boils down to bad class balancing and a melee friendly raid instance that revolves almost entirely around ST and cleave, 2 things that arcane and fire are significantly worse at than frost

[D3athsting]

aye that is the question, and i think it boils down to bad class balancing and a melee friendly raid instance that revolves almost entirely around ST and cleave, 2 things that arcane and fire are significantly worse at than frost

It revolves around melee sitting on boss like it's a training dummy and giving shit to mechanics while ranged do all the dirt job

[Frostyspeed]

If you want to know the strength of a spec, you look at the top players of the spec. You can have some idiot who has no idea what hes doing on the best spec and make it look bad. Frost is one of the, if not the, strongest ranged spec right now in game in terms of Nighthold performance. I usually do not care about ranged vs melee, but since Melee have a patchwerk fight every boss, their dps will naturally be higher, not to take into account balancing issues. Unless youre willing to reroll to melee, frost mage is the best thing you can have. MM Hunters are also really strong, but I'd argue on the hardest bosses in the raid, Frost is very very strong.

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Because this is the point when you need good performance the most? If you're 10/10 already, your dps doesn't matter.

There is so much wrong in this that I do not know where to start. 3/10 mythic players most of the time have no fucking clue what theyre doing with their spec. Thats why they cant beat Krosus enrage timer... Any respectable DPS will not be stuck 3/10 mythic with this many resets, unless hes hard carrying his guild. Also, you think DPS doesnt matter if youre 10/10? That is such an ignorant mentality to have. When it comes to judging spec strength, you look at anyone whos 7/10 or more, and ESPECIALLY 10/10 players, because those are the best of the best. They will show you how strong a spec is when its used at its skill cap.

[firejin]

frost is definitely op but I prefer fire still.