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  1. #661
    Quote Originally Posted by Iceleaf View Post
    I guess it was to slow down "top raiders" at first but geez.
    Making ANY design decisions with the "top raiders" in mind is just dumb. Talk about the tail wagging the dog.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  2. #662
    Stuck on 3/10M. Losing raiders to burnout. Same thing as a lot of guilds currently.

  3. #663
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    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    which is proving that mythic is unnesesary if hc with tf is so much more popular and whole myth that "they raid for chalenge" was nothing but lies from a get go .
    Or maybe people want the rewards to be proportional to the difficulty. Challenge is all good and well, but when you're farming something, you want it to be quicker and easier than your first kills. This doesn't really happen when item drops aren't superior to lower difficulties.

  4. #664
    Quote Originally Posted by KaPe View Post
    Or maybe people want the rewards to be proportional to the difficulty. Challenge is all good and well, but when you're farming something, you want it to be quicker and easier than your first kills. This doesn't really happen when item drops aren't superior to lower difficulties.
    I think we can all agree that the chance to get 925 titanforged gear from LFR/Normal/Heroic NH and dungeons is simply disgusting. It kills any motivation for all parties involved. The lucky person isn't motivated to run mythic NH because they already have BiS and people who don't have it are never going to get it b/c mythic only drops 905. Mythic raiding has no reward anymore. If a stat stick trinket from Nightbane or Guarm titanforges to 900 it would be better than most NH trinkets. You can get titanforged 900 BiS relics from running mythic+.
    Last edited by Kirbypro; 2017-03-16 at 03:19 PM.

  5. #665
    TLDR thread but here's my take.

    Of course it was correct to tune it at 54 traits since all the top guilds already had 54 traits farmed. Otherwise people would have complained that the content was too easy. The problem is that once the top guilds had cleared NH they should have tuned down to raid to a more appropriate level. In a sense that is probably what they are intending with the release of 7.2 where everyone gets new traits and immediately become stronger. That is a nice way of nerfing all content without actually tweaking the raids numbers. The only problem is then the timeline but since it seems that 7.2 is only a few weeks away I expect a lot of the guilds that are stuck will quickly start rolling through content once it hits.

  6. #666
    Interestingly, the drop from 3M to 4M kills is now touching 3,000

    I'm sure this won't change the opinion of most people in the thread who come here to express their "set in stone" opinion regardless of the evidence presented but........

    The difficulty jump is excessively high in my opinion.

  7. #667
    Quote Originally Posted by Deja Thoris View Post
    Interestingly, the drop from 3M to 4M kills is now touching 3,000

    I'm sure this won't change the opinion of most people in the thread who come here to express their "set in stone" opinion regardless of the evidence presented but........

    The difficulty jump is excessively high in my opinion.
    As someone that was stuck at 3/10 mythic but has managed to push up to 5/10 mythic, the bosses after the first 3 are certainly rough. A lot of what contributes to the difficulty though lack of consistent upgrades. Like, in EN and ToV, your kill times would get significantly faster each week due to more artifact traits. In NH, serious guilds have been all 54 in at least 1 weapon for weeks. Between that, the gear treadmill being broken due to WF/TF, the RNG nature of legendaries, and the comparatively weak loot from the first 3, most guilds are not really seeing their kill times go up by much per week.

    It's this huge combination of factors that makes the difficulty of NH last longer than most raiders are used to.

    Also, the mechanics of the 4-7 bosses are just brutal compared to the stuff that came from before. On Tichondrius for example, (I'm using that since that's my guild's current progression boss) there's no mechanics that are all that difficult on an individual level, but the tank damage is brutal and if you do fuck up a mechanic, just stand in the wrong spot 1 time, and you die. And the bat phase is a huge pain in the ass and it's very easy to lose just 1-3 people on it. And even if you get all that down, it's very easy to wipe to berserk if you do too many safety strats or if you just end up having 1-2 people dead near the end of the fight.

    As with Botanist and Krosus, it's the mechanics being just hard enough to fuck you, with the numbers check being brutal at the same time.

    7.2 Will fix it, and tbh I can't wait. Right now, unless I get a 1 in a million drop from mythic+, it does not matter if I put in 0 hours a week or 60 outside of raid, my character won't get any more powerful, and that is frustrating to me, to be stuck on a boss with no way to help my guildies out in a tangible way in game. New traits and 4th relic slot can't come soon enough imo.

    Not that I'm not having fun in NH, but I feel like we're pushing through with raw grit at this point, and that gets exhausting. After a raid night I pretty much just flop down on my bed.

  8. #668
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Showtimes24 View Post
    Stuck on 3/10M. Losing raiders to burnout. Same thing as a lot of guilds currently.
    tbh, I've heard about guilds disbanding BECAUSE they got gul'dan down on HC already.

    Because
    1) Majority knows they wont go mythic so its going to be farming for next 2-3 months till ToS (which does not come on 7.2. patch day)
    2) Even if they go mythic they get stuck on 3 bosses because people dont have time to go 54 traits or carry people that dont have time for that

  9. #669
    Quote Originally Posted by TOM_RUS View Post
    Bosses past first 3 are heavily overtuned both numbers and mechanics wise, that's why guilds stuck. Nerfs are coming soon though...
    It's not that the bosses past the first 3 are over-tuned, it's that the first 3 bosses are severely under-tuned and are on the same level of difficulty as Nythendra/Ursoc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Laurcus View Post
    7.2 Will fix it, and tbh I can't wait. Right now, unless I get a 1 in a million drop from mythic+, it does not matter if I put in 0 hours a week or 60 outside of raid, my character won't get any more powerful, and that is frustrating to me, to be stuck on a boss with no way to help my guildies out in a tangible way in game. New traits and 4th relic slot can't come soon enough imo.
    Problem is, even at 7/10M, I don't feel any more powerful than I did once I finished my 4 set. Our kill times on even farm are only 15-20 seconds shorter than they were on the first kill. There's no steamrolling the early bosses as they all take about 4 minutes (when our first kills were 4:30 or so). Krosus is still a 5m 40s fight, Botanist is still a boring slog, Spellblade is a boring slog, no amount of gear will stop a wipe on Tichondrius or Star Augur if people mess up.
    Last edited by Mercane; 2017-03-16 at 04:54 PM.

  10. #670
    Quote Originally Posted by Halobob87 View Post
    Yeah, nice data: x guilds are stuck at 3/10 ... so? Again, M is not meant for every one , if u are stuck at 3/10 is becouse you probably have a good amount of "meh" players. And no, bosses like krosus ecc are not tuned for 54th traits, so, even with a 45-50~ avarage artifact level team u can easly do 7/10M if your raid group is good. Only augur , elisande and gul'dan are tuned for 54th traits.
    Not every random joe "wannabe mythic raider" should be able to clear mythic (rigth EN?), couse, again, mythic is not meant for everyone.

    Wait for teh nerfs and stop qqing.
    Unfortunately blizzard themselves bred the "entitled" attitude so prevalent among the millenial gamers who think they're playing a real mmorpg.

    The issue is dramatically exacerbated by the fact you get equivalent gear from 5 mans as you do from extremely hard raid content.

    They're milking the casual army at the expense of the core gamer and mmo vet. Been the case since post vanilla TBH.

  11. #671
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelraxx View Post
    It's not that the bosses past the first 3 are over-tuned, it's that the first 3 bosses are severely under-tuned and are on the same level of difficulty as Nythendra/Ursoc.
    Over/undertuned are vacuous terms. They don't have an objective meaning because it's based on perspective.

    Imo, bosses 4-7 right now are significantly harder than anything in EN, not just Nythendra and Ursoc. Just my two cents.

  12. #672
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Saybel View Post
    We killed Krosus Mythic yesterday with 5 DPS not at 54 traits, they were at - 53, 50, 48, 47 and 43 respectively. I doubt having them all at 54 would have made us kill the boss any sooner then 5-6 pulls (and only because we had a 2% pull that could have been a kill). I doubt most serious mythic guilds are in the scenario where literally every single one of their raiders are at like 54 traits but the kill we got was not really RNG reliant, it was basically just a clean pull.

    Take the information as you want, but at least until Augur (where the majority of people aren't at) having clean fights is way more important then doing 2% more damage.

    We have a rule in our guild - don't cry about DPS unless we are wiping to (soft)enrage. Once you hit enrage start systematically looking at people who are doing low DPS and why.
    You got more Gear after 8weeks

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by darkest4 View Post
    This. The elitist attitudes on this forum are frankly pathetic, selfish and juvenile. Blizz spends a lot of time and resources creating and balancing mythic raiding. It's not going to be worth it to them if this trend continues where only 1% or less have any chance of ever completing the mythic raid before disbanding/burning out. Elitists whining about "game too ez" anytime anyone asks for reasonable nerfs are going to kill the raiding scene. Much of M NH is way too hard in terms of tuned around 54 traits, bis legendaries on most your dps, ilvl900+, 600~k+ dps etc for most bosses krosus and up. Blizz balancing around these top 100~ in the world guilds, while there's thousands of guilds who can easily clear H NH within 1-2 weeks of release but are going to be stuck long enough to burn out at anything past 3/10 M NH, and that's a whole lot of players whose subs blizz are probably throwing away to appease a few hundred/few thousand elitist players, when they could still appease them while appeasing everyone else too if they took a different approach.

    It should be this hard at release, to make for an exciting world first race. This world first race should give unique, better rewards to make it worth it for top raiders. For example, the top 20 or whatever guilds to kill guldan could get unique mounts and what not (no other way to get them, so they are exceptionally rare) that they could sell to other players for a hefty amount of wow tokens, or keep for themselves. At least then they're getting something for their extra effort. And during this "world first race" difficulty maybe all bosses drop an extra piece of gear or 2, bonus gold and extra AP or something, so there's some incentive too for those not quite in the top 20~. Then once the race is over, and unique rewards are handed out (lets say 3 weeks~ after M NH release) nerf mythic so it's still a challenge (lets say, somewhere between M EN difficulty and current M NH difficulty) without being utterly ridiculous and tuned around 54/ mostly bis legendaries/ilvl900+ like it is now.

    Right now, almost every mythic guild on my server is dying or experiencing huge turnover, most stuck 3-5/10 M. My own guild, 4/10 M has had several our best players quit the game (not the guild, the game) every week for the last few weeks. People are just sick of wiping on spellblade and what not for weeks on end, when it's not even close to the last boss even. I've been clearing the hardest difficulties since TBC, and never seen such burnout on only the first tier of raiding. And then its so hard to replace people now, because recruits need to have 54 traits, decent legendaries and decent ilvl (ilvl the easiest to fix but still you only have so much gear per week to pass out so it takes a while) to not just be a burden. Finding decent recruits with all these requirements is extremely hard when you're not on some top raiding server. And people who are burnt out on their spec can't realistically reroll a new spec/class quickly either because of the AP/legendary grind. So it feels like every time you lose someone you are taking a big step back in progress, meaning you get even more stuck at this wall past 3/10 M.

    And the time investment vs reward is just utterly whack, you are spending dozens of hours on some bosses just for like a 1/5th chance individually of getting mediocre or better gear (by time you kill mythic boss your total ilvl almost matches what drops). And this is after the required xxx hours spent grinding getting 54 traits, decent legendaries and 900ilvl just to have any chance in most of M NH. I can't think of any other game with such bad reward vs time investment on its hard content.
    creating mythic content is the easiest Part for Blizzard... thats just Numbers they have to tune, adding something extra to it doesnt take them so long

  13. #673
    Quote Originally Posted by Laurcus View Post
    Over/undertuned are vacuous terms. They don't have an objective meaning because it's based on perspective.

    Imo, bosses 4-7 right now are significantly harder than anything in EN, not just Nythendra and Ursoc. Just my two cents.
    Bosses 4-10 are significantly harder than anything in EN sure, I'm not debating that- the first 3 however are a complete and utter joke that don't warrant even being a Mythic Encounter; they barely changed from Heroic. Literally "Oh man, we have to kill an add".

    Krosus is a hard DPS check, but Spellblade? Nah. Botanist? Nah. Tich? Nah. Those fights are just punish you for making mistakes- not in the 'I messed up, I'm dead' way, the 'I messed up and wiped the raid' way. The only bosses confirmed to be tuned around 54 traits are Augur, Elisande and Gul'dan- but who seriously doesn't have 54 traits by now?

    I think what we see right now, are the guilds that transitioned from being a 'Heroic' guild to a 'Mythic' guild in Emerald Nightmare and are now facing the relative difficulty of an actual Mythic raid- something they're not used to after the loot piñata that was the first 4 bosses of EN.
    Last edited by Mercane; 2017-03-16 at 05:02 PM.

  14. #674
    1-3 Are easy, you can carry those that are shit at mechanics so long as they can dps.
    4-7 Are harder due to all of you actually having to do mechanics and not fail.

    Now as to bosses 8-9-10 they are tuned for AP lvl 54 this was mentioned by Ion in a tweet from him on 24th of Feb it also helps if you have Mythic gear, know how to dps/heal/tank and most important of all do mechanics.
    https://twitter.com/WatcherDev/statu...56538650066945

    Saying that 7 bosses are tuned fof 54 traits is just not true only the last 3 are tuned that way.
    Want to play SWTOR again and get 7 free days of subscription access + free ingame goodies: http://www.swtor.com/r/d5LnJT

  15. #675
    Quote Originally Posted by xqt View Post
    You got more Gear after 8weeks
    yeaaaah, if you get lucky. Ive been sitting on 898 for 4 weeks now, we dont get the neck form krosus, ever, and everything else i have, if 890 or 895 is better than what first three mythic bosses offer in 900 gear, aside from tier cloak, which i already have and we dont get titanforge leather and when we finally have some good TF ring or trinket, half the raid wants it. meanwhile our resto druid is at 907, because half the time he bonusrolls, he gets precisely what he wants, in 915+ version. Its really not that much fun, when you are completely reliant on heroic titanforges to even get a decent upgrade, our raid is STILL at average lower ilevel than what top guilds killed augur on first week, its obvious gearing issue at this point, when the bosses we aim to kill are tuned around 900 gear, when you dont even have somewhat reliable way to get to the 900 unless you run multiple splitruns or get very lucky

  16. #676
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelraxx View Post
    Bosses 4-10 are significantly harder than anything in EN sure, I'm not debating that- the first 3 however are a complete and utter joke that don't warrant even being a Mythic Encounter; they barely changed from Heroic. Literally "Oh man, we have to kill an add".

    Krosus is a hard DPS check, but Spellblade? Nah. Botanist? Nah. Tich? Nah. Those fights are just punish you for making mistakes- not in the 'I messed up, I'm dead' way, the 'I messed up and wiped the raid' way. The only bosses confirmed to be tuned around 54 traits are Augur, Elisande and Gul'dan- but who seriously doesn't have 54 traits by now?

    I think what we see right now, are the guilds that transitioned from being a 'Heroic' guild to a 'Mythic' guild in Emerald Nightmare and are now facing the relative difficulty of an actual Mythic raid- something they're not used to after the loot piñata that was the first 4 bosses of EN.
    The first 3 aren't a "complete joke". That's a really silly way of looking at it. The difference between the first 3 and the next 4 is about the same difference between the next 4 and the last 3.

    Tich is certainly a dps check. Not as hard as Krosus, but if he was not, you would be able to 19 man or even 18man him on a first kill if everyone played like robots, and that is not going to happen. He's also a fairly high tank and healing check.

    Talking with people that think like you is exhausting. You act like there's no gradients between hard as balls and being asleep. Something is either the tightest dps check to ever exist or it's not one at all.

    You're also downplaying the effect of gear and numbers in general. Mark my words, in 7.2 once people unlock their 4th relics, we're gonna see a fuckload of these 3/10 guilds shoot up to 7/10, because gear matters a lot, especially on a boss like Tich.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Risale View Post
    1-3 Are easy, you can carry those that are shit at mechanics so long as they can dps.
    4-7 Are harder due to all of you actually having to do mechanics and not fail.

    Now as to bosses 8-9-10 they are tuned for AP lvl 54 this was mentioned by Ion in a tweet from him on 24th of Feb it also helps if you have Mythic gear, know how to dps/heal/tank and most important of all do mechanics.
    https://twitter.com/WatcherDev/statu...56538650066945

    Saying that 7 bosses are tuned fof 54 traits is just not true only the last 3 are tuned that way.
    This is what I like to call trivially true. Yes it's true, but it's also meaningless. Gear can diverge in so many difference ways with WF/TF/sockets that you could have a character with only 45 traits, same class/spec, that does more damage than a character with 54 traits.

    Wen the devs say that a boss is tuned around 54 traits, what they mean is that they designed the boss under the assumption that everyone fighting it would have 54 traits. That is not some kind of mathematical breakpoint that if you are below it becomes impossible. On the other hand, that also does not mean that you can't have bosses before that that will be very very difficult without everyone in your raid having 54 traits.

  17. #677
    Quote Originally Posted by Laurcus View Post
    The first 3 aren't a "complete joke". That's a really silly way of looking at it. The difference between the first 3 and the next 4 is about the same difference between the next 4 and the last 3.
    Except they are, they are trivially easy- and if you struggle on them, you don't belong in Mythic raiding. They are the easiest bosses this expansion and somehow even more disappointing than Xavius.


    Quote Originally Posted by Laurcus View Post
    Wen the devs say that a boss is tuned around 54 traits, what they mean is that they designed the boss under the assumption that everyone fighting it would have 54 traits. That is not some kind of mathematical breakpoint that if you are below it becomes impossible. On the other hand, that also does not mean that you can't have bosses before that that will be very very difficult without everyone in your raid having 54 traits.
    Nighthold is literally designed around not being zergable.

    A 4th relic or any amount of gear isn't going to make people to obey mechanics. All the gear in the world isn't going to make a player magically move a debuff out, soak an orb or hard swap adds; it might slightly compensate for the fact that they don't do these things, but the bosses aren't going to fall over because John Q. Publord got another relic/trait/better gear.

  18. #678
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelraxx View Post
    Except they are, they are trivially easy- and if you struggle on them, you don't belong in Mythic raiding. They are the easiest bosses this expansion and somehow even more disappointing than Xavius.




    Nighthold is literally designed around not being zergable.

    A 4th relic or any amount of gear isn't going to make people to obey mechanics. All the gear in the world isn't going to make a player magically move a debuff out, soak an orb or hard swap adds; it might slightly compensate for the fact that they don't do these things, but the bosses aren't going to fall over because John Q. Publord got another relic/trait/better gear.
    So can I quote this post when hundreds of guilds kill Krosus like a week after 7.2 drops?

  19. #679
    I think easy EN mythic inflated too many guild egos into thinking they were mythic raiders.

  20. #680
    Quote Originally Posted by Laurcus View Post
    So can I quote this post when hundreds of guilds kill Krosus like a week after 7.2 drops?
    My bet is that nerfs will come before 7.2 drops, most likely next week or one after.

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