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  1. #1

    Lack of class diversity is why so few people want to play RDPS

    I've been seeing this talked about a bit. To me, there is one main reason RDPS is less played than melee and it also plays into why there is a shortage of tanks and healers in group finder as well.

    Melee have 12 specs to choose from spread over 9 classes. Of those, only 4 specs are on a pure DPS class (3 rogue specs plus Survival hunter). That means 75% of melee specs and ~80% of melee DPS classes can either tank, heal, or both in addition to doing DPS. If you want to melee dps and tank, you can play Druid, Death Knight, Monk, Paladin, Warrior, or Demon Hunter. If you want to do Melee DPS and heal, you can play Druid, Paladin, Shaman, or Monk.

    Range have 11 specs spread over just 6 classes. Of those, 3 of the classes, making up 8 of the 11 specs, are pure DPS classes. Hunters (2 specs), Mages (3 specs), and Warlock (3 specs) can *only* DPS. This means 72% of RDPS specs and 50% of RDPS classes have absolutely no role diversity. If you want to RDPS and tank you have to play a Druid. If you want to RDPS and heal, you are a Shaman, Priest, or Druid.

    The basic issue is that playing melee DPS gives you *much* more flexibility to off spec as a different role. If Blizz really wants to help address the imbalance of melee vs range and the shortage of tanks and healers when forming groups, they need to address the extreme lack of RDPS specs with tank or heal off specs. This goes beyond just adding a new class next expac that can RDPS, heal, and tank. We really need more of the current classes with RDPS specs to gain the ability to heal and/or tank.

  2. #2
    >Constant whine threads about Legion being alt/spec/artifact unfriendly

    >Your idea is more class "diversity."

    >Logic doesn't really follow here. Plus I'm pretty sure its assumed this isn't a real issue. Adding Monk tanks didn't "fix" the tanking "issue." So I don't see how this would solve anything. It seems like a fake solution to a completely made up problem.

  3. #3
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    My theory is that, WoW shifted towards cleave like DPsing in late WoTLK, and melee is far better at that, especially in a casual, 5 man setting.

    If a new player picks this game up, and rolls a Warlock or S Priest, they will do shit dps in dungeons most likely, as will most range who arent Hunters.

    And while people here will scoof at the idea that DPS numbers matter in fucking Dire Maul in 2017, i disagree, i think casuals just see melee DPS as a easy way to play this game as some sort of God of War action title, press buttons -> stuff happens instantly -> boom


    The early game is the only game that casuals will be exposed to early on, and its very melee friendly, healers are dull as shit, tanks are melee dpsers with more defense and range are these clunky things that have "casting timer" that is puzzling in that playstyle.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    I really don't get your logic. And totally not why you drag tanks (melee) and healers (ranged) into this.

    Anecdotal evidence: I find surviving as a melee dps harder than as a ranged. I prefer ranged. The only melee I like to play are tanks.

    Making your "arguments" even more confusing
    While yes, obviously all tanks are melee, not all healers are ranged. Pally now usually play more melee due to the combo of their mastery and strength at tank healing and MW Monks have a melee build/play style available to them as well.

    As to why I brought them into it? You see tons of groups stacked with 3 DPS waiting on a tank and healer. When you queue for LFR/Random Heroic, Healers and tanks have near-instant queues while DPS usually have a substantial wait.

    You are actually the prime example of my argument. There are people who prefer RDPS, people who prefer melee DPS, and people who prefer to have more than one role available. You prefer RDPS and, if you have to play melee, want to play a tank. Right now, there is one class in game that gives you the ability to RDPS and tank, Druid. I highly suspect you're not alone.

    But even if the arguments about tanks and healers hold no water, it doesn't change the core issue (for me) that there is an extreme lack of diversity in RDPS. In a game with 12 classes available, it would be great if RDPS wasn't dominated by 3 of them.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by PraisCthulhu View Post
    The basic issue is that playing melee DPS gives you *much* more flexibility to off spec as a different role. If Blizz really wants to help address the imbalance of melee vs range and the shortage of tanks and healers when forming groups, they need to address the extreme lack of RDPS specs with tank or heal off specs. This goes beyond just adding a new class next expac that can RDPS, heal, and tank. We really need more of the current classes with RDPS specs to gain the ability to heal and/or tank.
    Ok. I do not understand your logic and reasoning.

    WoTLK introduced DK, which has a tanking spec.

    MoP introduced Monk, which has a tanking and healing spec.

    Legion introduced DH, which has a tanking spec.

    That is three new tank spec and one healing added to the game.

    Has queue time improved? I have not seen it so.

    What makes you think making more tank and healing specs would reduce the the shortage of tanks and heals? What possibly more could they add that would encourage more people tank and heal?

    Personally, the reason why there is a shortage of tanks and heals is the responsibility those roles requires. A mistake can cause a wipe while a mistake as DPS generally do not.

  6. #6
    personally I like ranged dps i got an 890 warlock with 50 traits as affliction he's pretty easy and fun in raids and M+ with sow the seeds. Problem for me is that I do pug a lot and in M+ its getting harder to find groups to compete with those mythic raiders or organized h raiders even at 900+ ilvl when they start taking my spots in the +15s i apply for. I wish there was a ranged dps class with a tank spec (outside of moonkin/druids) I would really enjoy that but what i've been doing recently is just using my prot/ret paladin for tanking/melee dps and using my warlock for ranged and trying to keep them both geared around the same ilvl of each other so depending on my mood I can switch on the fly.

    i guess WTB more ranged dps/ tank class like a mech or vanguard in swtor i think had something like that.

  7. #7
    Immortal Nnyco's Avatar
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    for once melee is better, thats why everyone plays melee not because the tanks can also change to melee dps
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Crabs have been removed from the game... because if I see another one I’m just going to totally lose it. *sobbing* I’m sorry, I just can’t right now... I just... OK just give me a minute, I’ll be OK..

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Sansnom View Post
    Ok. I do not understand your logic and reasoning.

    WoTLK introduced DK, which has a tanking spec.

    MoP introduced Monk, which has a tanking and healing spec.

    Legion introduced DH, which has a tanking spec.

    That is three new tank spec and one healing added to the game.

    Has queue time improved? I have not seen it so.

    What makes you think making more tank and healing specs would reduce the the shortage of tanks and heals? What possibly more could they add that would encourage more people tank and heal?

    Personally, the reason why there is a shortage of tanks and heals is the responsibility those roles requires. A mistake can cause a wipe while a mistake as DPS generally do not.
    This ^ . OP, I am not against a demonology tanking spec for example, this has been suggested numerous times before, but tanking and healing frighten the hell out of people to begin with (for good reason, people have to know what they are doing).

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nnyco View Post
    for once melee is better, thats why everyone plays melee not because the tanks can also change to melee dps
    Personally I like melee because it's all "in your face" thingy. But if I would like to be durable, I want to play a ranged, ranged wins hands down in survivability; that's why to me Ranged are "better" overall (@det nailed it already in the thread).

  9. #9
    "why so few people want to play RDPS", I'll tell you why:
    - melee is better for dungeons (burst aoe, cleave, more stuns and interrupts)
    - melee is better for pvp (many reasons but stuns and interrupts are a few)
    - ranged have to deal with more annoying mechanics in raids (the mechanics that only target ranged / healers or prio them), this exists since at least wotlk it's not recent, who remembers festergut and saurfang that needed at least x amount of ranged to deal with the stuff you "didn't want on melee"

    Ranged used to have advantage over melee when you had to move around because melee could get out of melee range and lose dps while range could move and pew pew from range. Guess what, they nerfed that, most ranged are super screwed if they have to move, and when there are some ranged with decent mobility, something else screws them, for example BM hunter can cast everything on the move but the pet movement between mobs make them lose uptime akin to melees. All the post-MOP "prunes" and reworks pushed people away from playing ranged.
    Last edited by Marrilaife; 2017-03-17 at 02:05 AM.

  10. #10
    I'd say most classes being not very entertaining at this point doesn't help either. I'm sure the next revamp will fix that though *cough*

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by PraisCthulhu View Post
    I've been seeing this talked about a bit. To me, there is one main reason RDPS is less played than melee and it also plays into why there is a shortage of tanks and healers in group finder as well.
    1. There is no lack of class diversity ... all classes are played within cooee of where they are meant to be.
    2. The lack of tanks/healers is a mathematical artefact causes by two other aspects of the game - healers are hard to play solo (levelling) and the tank/healer/dps ratio of 5 mans is out of whack with that of other group content (LFR/Raids etc)
    3. Melee class representation is heavily biased by the fact that the two hero classes are both melee.
    4. Melee classes will of course have fewer pure dps, because by definition a tank has to be melee where as a healer doesn't. It takes a fair bit of wrangling to integrate a RDPS spec into a tank class (balance druid anyone).

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    I'd say most classes being not very entertaining at this point doesn't help either. I'm sure the next revamp will fix that though *cough*
    Well, maybe you wore yourself out playing most classes and specs to max level raiding.... but I can tell you, I'm loving my Arcane Mage as average as it is.

    Maybe you should focus on one class/spec to and on one you enjoy

    Challenge Mode : Play WoW like my disability has me play:
    You will need two people, Brian MUST use the mouse for movement/looking and John MUST use the keyboard for casting, attacking, healing etc.
    Briand and John share the same goal, same intentions - but they can't talk to each other, however they can react to each other's in game activities.
    Now see how far Brian and John get in WoW.


  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by schwarzkopf View Post

    Maybe you should focus on one class/spec to and on one you enjoy
    Well that's the thing, there are so few to choose from that are fun in the first place.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    Well that's the thing, there are so few to choose from that are fun in the first place.
    Well, I'm restricted to RDPS due to disability and I'm enjoying a couple of them - what's your excuse

    Challenge Mode : Play WoW like my disability has me play:
    You will need two people, Brian MUST use the mouse for movement/looking and John MUST use the keyboard for casting, attacking, healing etc.
    Briand and John share the same goal, same intentions - but they can't talk to each other, however they can react to each other's in game activities.
    Now see how far Brian and John get in WoW.


  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    Well that's the thing, there are so few to choose from that are fun in the first place.
    Im at oposite. For the first time in the history of wow i find mostly all classes and spec interesting. Except locks, because some idiot thinked that putting mana issue on entire class is class fantasy. So, other than skiping lock i find them all interesting.

  15. #15
    Deleted
    Unholy dk should definitely have been ranged. That would have given plate int gear that was solely reserved for pally at the time, another possible use. It also works better with warcraft 2 lore and the original dk units being casters.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by schwarzkopf View Post
    4. Melee classes will of course have fewer pure dps, because by definition a tank has to be melee where as a healer doesn't. It takes a fair bit of wrangling to integrate a RDPS spec into a tank class (balance druid anyone).

    This is not a valid excuse at all. There are already classes that offer both ranged and melee specs (Hunter, Druid, and Shaman), so that shows that you can easily have a class that has both ranged and melee specs. A class could easily be adapted to have their melee spec be a tank. Honestly, Survival Hunter would have been a great opportunity to offer a class that did range DPS and tanked, plus it would have given us a Mail wearing tank. There could have been cool mechanics revolving around redirecting damage to your pet, using traps to pre-plan debuffs and stuns (place trap, kite pack into trap to apply an AoE stun/slow), and more. Warlocks offer another opportunity because they are already extremely tanky for a RDPS cloth wearer. Simply building on what is already there to make one of their specs a tank spec would be great.

    Another way to go would be to give a current tank/DPS class a RDPS option. I think Unholy is ripe for this. If you go with the mastery build, you only really have two abilities that have a range under 30 yards, Festering Strike and Death Strike, and only one of those is used as part of your DPS rotation (Festering). All they would have to do to make Unholy a ranged spec is give them a way to apply wounds from a range (buffing Infected claws and making it base line could accomplish this, or rework one of their current abilities to apply wounds, or just give festering Strike a new name and let it work at range).

    Another option would be to give Shaman the earth based tank spec they've been asking for. They have specs that focus on 3 out of the 4 elements that give them RDPS, MDPS, and Heals. This would have the added advantage of giving players who want to fulfill all roles on one character an option other than Druid.

    Of all the excuses to have fewer RDPS classes that can offspec as tank/heals, the idea that it is too hard to make an RDPS into a tank is the one I buy the least.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Aliven View Post
    Im at oposite. For the first time in the history of wow i find mostly all classes and spec interesting. Except locks, because some idiot thinked that putting mana issue on entire class is class fantasy. So, other than skiping lock i find them all interesting.
    This sort of gets to the point I'm making too. Warlocks make up ~30% of RDPS specs. So disliking Warlock (one class!) play style means you're shut out of 1/3 of all RDPS specs.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by PraisCthulhu View Post
    This is not a valid excuse at all. There are already classes that offer both ranged and melee specs (Hunter, Druid, and Shaman),
    But my point was - that a TANK that is fundamentally as ranged class just makes little sense at all. A tank (balance druid fudge aside) is a melee class.

    Can you possibly imagine a tanking spec for Mage, Priest, Warlock or Hunter or Shaman (that doesn't involve pets)?

    NO. Well, maybe Shaman - but making it a druid in effect.

    Can you imagine a tanking spec for a Rogue.

    Of course you could.

    Challenge Mode : Play WoW like my disability has me play:
    You will need two people, Brian MUST use the mouse for movement/looking and John MUST use the keyboard for casting, attacking, healing etc.
    Briand and John share the same goal, same intentions - but they can't talk to each other, however they can react to each other's in game activities.
    Now see how far Brian and John get in WoW.


  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by schwarzkopf View Post
    Can you possibly imagine a tanking spec for Mage, Priest, Warlock or Hunter or Shaman (that doesn't involve pets)?

    NO. Well, maybe Shaman - but making it a druid in effect.
    Shaman with a mace and shield, why not? They even used to have some block and dodge talents in vanilla.

    Mage tank would be something like spellblade aluriel. She uses the typical elements of a mage (frost, fire, arcane), but also melee attacks and has a shield and a glaive.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Marrilaife View Post
    Mage tank would be something like spellblade aluriel. She uses the typical elements of a mage (frost, fire, arcane), but also melee attacks and has a shield and a glaive.
    Close combat mages would be pretty awesome. Ala Diablo 1, another example.

  20. #20
    I am Murloc! Seefer's Avatar
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    My theory on why there is a lack of healers and tanks in group finder is that when DPS do stupid crap they yell and scream at the tanks or healers even though they were the numb nuts who were standing in bad or couldn't move to avoid a simple mechanic.
    History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people - Martin Luther King, Jr.

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