No sense of progression in Nighthold - Preach video

[Halobob87]

Lol nope.

/10 chars

[Pull My Finger]

Can't stand these serial whiners. Do a therapy, for God's sake.

[Chazzwozzer]

I don't know exactly how he sourced his graphs, but my guild's killtimes have gone down significantly as we farmed.

The ilevel gradient, ap farming, titanforging, and 2 difficulties worth of easy tier have certainly frontloaded a lot of the throughput gain, but not to the extent of his graphs. I suspect that we're seeing fully SoO geared raids being compared to half nighthold geared raids.

Agree with this post. I doubt the data in his graphs is from the time frame of 5.2 to 5.4. It probably includes data after SoO, and therefore is not a good basis for comparison. You could easily cherry pick data from EN/ToV to demonstrate that kill times have decreased significantly in this "tier". Even if his data is only from 5.2 to 5.4, that time frame lasted from March until September. Mythic Nighthold has not yet been out for two months.

Similar to the post above, my guild's mythic NH kill times have also gone down significantly since our first kills (by as much as 30%). And we haven't begun to push for faster kills with fewer healers. In fact, we've added healers on Krosus because our dps has increased substantially.

I do agree that there is a high level of burnout at the mythic level right now, but I disagree with his kill time assertion. According to my raid members, the cause of burnout is mostly related to the AP/legendary system rather than any other factor. I realize that's anecdotal, but it's the direct reason provided by my former raiders.

[urasim]

Agree with this post. I doubt the data in his graphs is from the time frame of 5.2 to 5.4. It probably includes data after SoO, and therefore is not a good basis for comparison.

Having been there, I can say that you're incorrect. Bosses became significantly easier and faster as you progressed through throne of thunder. My guilds raid times were almost at the point where he showed in the video before SoO came out. Every week of ToT we beat our previous best times on bosses. I can't say the same about NH.

[kamuimac]

great perspective from preach in his video i find. Say spellblade first week of M takes just under 7min in other expansions youd be seeing her killed at like 5min or so but now its still 6min 15sec 6min 30sec(numbers are just examples)

i wouldlove to see you and many people come back to this very thread in a month when 7.2 with its new traits and nerfs to content come back and comment on kill time then. and how will it change then.

[Deleted]

I doubt the data in his graphs is from the time frame of 5.2 to 5.4.

Except anyone who actually raided in ToT will confirm those numbers. Only note that those are 10-man stats. 25-man had generally longer fights. But shaving half of the fight time wasn't impossible.

i wouldlove to see you and many people come back to this very thread in a month when 7.2 with its new traits and nerfs to content come back and comment on kill time then. and how will it change then.

Who cares about Nighthold in 7.2? It is different patch with different raid. Killing a boss after next content patch came takes away any sense of accomplishment of the kill.

[FelPlague]

Preach videos used to be guides, he kept his opinion out of it.

They're now opinion videos near exclusively.

Why? 'Cause hes no longer the best of the best.

fixed it for ya
hes become abit more casual, still playing mythic and such, but hes no longer method levels, making guides for all classes
also youtube makes much less these days, so streaming is what he does

[Deleted]

fixed it for ya
hes become abit more casual, still playing mythic and such, but hes no longer method levels, making guides for all classes
also youtube makes much less these days, so streaming is what he does

I was in the same guild when Preach began YouTube, and I could definitely write a "drama time" about the month he spent as officer before he bailed mid progress.

He did one or two raids in Method during his YouTube career on Dragon Soul farm*. He failed/decided it wasn't for him/backed out of it, either way he's never been "world first" during his time on YouTube.

He's gone from Top50-100 to Top200-300, he's not exactly dropped that much, his problem is he keeps taking tiers off so cannot comment on PvE matters with authority during his off-times.

*He was in Method "properly" during Ulduar farm/start of ToC progression.

[Kirbypro]

Sure I don't disagree with the gist of the argument but as I said, the graph layout makes the issue look worse than it is, I also don't believe NH has been out long enough to compare NH farm to ToT farm.

I'd also be incredibly curious if he's including ToT farm by people in 12 months worth of SoO gear.

Why would you be curious. That is retarded. He's comparing within a single tier, not after a new tier is dropped. Just like people mentioning 7.2 are completely misguided.

[Chazzwozzer]

Having been there, I can say that you're incorrect. Bosses became significantly easier and faster as you progressed through throne of thunder. My guilds raid times were almost at the point where he showed in the video before SoO came out. Every week of ToT we beat our previous best times on bosses. I can't say the same about NH.

Because you were "there," I am incorrect? I was also "there" in a 25 man capacity, although that says nothing to the data in his graph. Saying you were there does not provide evidence that his data was solely from the ToT tier. And while I was "there," I don't recall anything that resembled the kill times presented in his graph, especially at an "overall" level which is the term he uses for the Nighthold comparison.

The data in his graph suggests that Dark Animus, Durumu, and Ra-den were killed in ~2 minutes on farm, while they took 7+ minutes for progression. Overall, guilds were not killing these bosses that quickly at the heroic level. Can you point to evidence prior to 5.4 with these kill times overall? I don't have the data, which is why I said "probably" in my post. I believe the more likely scenario is that his data includes higher gear, along with the content nerf provided in patch 5.4 (20% health reduction to all bosses in ToT).

Even if you can demonstrate that his data did come solely from the ToT patch, the comparison is still disingenuous, as it compares a 6 month time frame to less than 2 months. Note that Mythic Nighthold was opened on January 24th, despite the video's false claim that Nighthold has been out for 2.5 months.

Also, I can provide data from the current tier to demonstrate that kill times have already decreased, and this is without a concerted effort to speed clear. Since the video specifically referenced the first three encounters, let's look at my own guild's times for those. Of course the naysayers will say small sample size, etc., etc. But we don't know what kind of sample size is used in the video either. I'm just using readily available information from my guild's warcraftlogs. Also note, I've never heard of Preach. I have no agenda against him. I just don't find his data (or lack thereof) convincing.

M Skorpyon:
4:30 first kill
3:12 fastest kill
33.7% difference

M Anomaly:
5:14 first kill
3:28 fastest kill
40.7% difference

M Trilliax:
5:18 first kill
3:55 fastest kill
30.2% difference

[Nightstalker]

He barely touches on the DR of rating budget on items. Beyond 950 (imo) you will basically only notice an increase in basedmg with increasing ilvl. DPS isn't skyrocketing like it used to.

[Raone]

Who cares about Nighthold in 7.2? It is different patch with different raid. Killing a boss after next content patch came takes away any sense of accomplishment of the kill.

Everyone who raiding? There is no new raid in 7.2, Tomb of Sargeras won't be "opened" for another 2-3 months so everyone will still be doing Nighthold for awhile after 7.2 comes out (which gives us a rather large power gain). I believe the raid was deliberately overtuned so it will take longer to clear but when 7.2 comes out it will indirectly nerf it because all the new AP traits and mythic+s all new ilvl gains.

[Kazuchika]

I believe the raid was deliberately overtuned so it will take longer to clear but when 7.2 comes out it will indirectly nerf it because all the new AP traits and mythic+s all new ilvl gains.

Yeah I'm sure it went over great at the design meetings basically saying "lets just leave it hard as shit and watch guilds crumble but it's okay we'll nerf it a month before people stop giving a shit about it"

[RoKPaNda]

Why does anyone listen to Preach? Him and Asmongold are all whining and incorrect opinions now.

[sheggaro]

What a load of nonsense.

[Kuruption]

This happened in heroic too. I don't raid mythic due to scheduling constraints but I do run +15 all the time. So it was depressing to see a new raid come out and kill the first boss, get an item... not an upgrade. Start looking at other bosses and realizing, shit, I'm already 893 and perfectly itemized, this stuff is not really gonna move the needle other than 4 set.

M+ takes a lot of the blame here but to me it's really about war/ titanforging. The long term effect of titanforging means it becomes the only type of gear you care about, because if you play long enough you get a good amount of titanforged gear that's already better than regular drops from the next instance.

I'm not seeing this at all looking at my logs. We've been taking almost a good minute or even two minutes off some of our first heroic boss kills to recent kills, and our dps has room for improvement.

On topic, I'd love to see logs of these guilds that don't increase their farm time after a month or two of farming. Because for me, I don't get how this even makes sense.

[Harsesis]

If you would like proof of the ToT numbers check out a race between Method and Midwinter that happened years ago. Takes place on 5.4 PTR and instance is cleared in like an hour and a half.

[Nightstalker]

If you would like proof of the ToT numbers check out a race between Method and Midwinter that happened years ago. Takes place on 5.4 PTR and instance is cleared in like an hour and a half.

With what kind of gear? 5.4 had SoO loot.

[Deleted]

With what kind of gear? 5.4 had SoO loot.

If I remember correctly, we had 608 Legendary Cloaks but the rest of the gear was basically what we farmed on live from ToT.

Previous tiers had a massive power spike happen(or received a massive nerf earlier), which made it much easier to clear compared to the start. ToT for example had an 8ilvl gain(for 500 valor points) + the insane legendary metagems+ the 608 ilvl epic cloaks( when the highest ilvl was 549 with a full +8 upgrade). Also, they didn't need to be tuned to account for Titanforging, 2 legendaries or weapons with 915+ilvl from the start.

[Raone]

Yeah I'm sure it went over great at the design meetings basically saying "lets just leave it hard as shit and watch guilds crumble but it's okay we'll nerf it a month before people stop giving a shit about it"

They did that with ICC though, it was very much overtuned and balanced around 1-2 stacks of the buff near the end.