Should BM legendaries get nerfed?

[Mavick]

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20753558028

I'm tired of continuing to wait on them to "keep an eye on", that period has passed. I think we deserve a concrete answer on what they're going to do about the BM shoulders. That answer in the Q&A today was totally unsatisfactory.

[last1214]

I'm pretty sure we got our answer. It was written all over his face in the Q&A. They currently have not made any plans to changed the shoulders for patch 7.2. They haven't made any plans to make the effect baseline for the spec for 7.2. Maybe at a later date, or next expansion, to make the spec more fluid, but again no promises. If there was a change pending, and coming to the next ptr build, he would have either said so, or answered the question in a different way: and not given us this "Maybe we could wrap it in, in the future, no promises," bull shit.

He didn't even recognize it as a powerful legendary. He only said he thought it was one that enhanced the spec in a way that people felt was cool. Maybe they aren't even looking at it from the point of view that it is the best in every situation. Maybe they only see it as a legendary people think is fun because it gives you more procs. Maybe if this expansion didn't promote playing a single character until your eyes bleed in order to be reasonably optimized for mythic content, the developers would have more time to play their own fucking game, and maybe be in touch with the changes they make, or the ones that need to be done.

I will be completely shocked if 7.2 rolls around and the shoulders are still not the completely dominate option for BM in every situation.

[Gaaz]

Oh my freaking god... The 2 charge system for the Dire beast should have been base, instead of a Legendary effect. This is obvious to all who even casually played a BM hunter, even without this legendary, let alone people who have it and experience first hand what a huge difference it makes for the rotation. The dire beast proc has been complained about even before the release of legion. I can not believe the design team was so dense as to not understand it. Add 2 charges baseline, make shoulders give you a 3rd (for example) charge, or make something different up for them. Problem solved. It is not like BM will dominate damage meters even if you give then 3 charges baseline. Such a half assed design approach, I can not actually believe such obvious shortcoming even made it to PTR servers, let alone live. The legendary is just an insult after that.

[Sastank]

If shoulders get nerfed BM will not do any damage

Won't be much of a difference from how it is now compared to other tri-dps classes' specs.

BM so good :l https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/11#dataset=90

[munkeyinorbit]

Seems to me the mantle and belt legendaries for BM are quite a bit better than the other options. For the sake of balance do you think they should be nerfed to be a bit more in line with the rest? I just don't see why someone who is lucky enough to get both of them should have such a huge advantage over the have nots. Especially since it is a very real possibility that you may not ever get either one.

From the last Q&A regarding the mantle specifically: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/129089429?t=29m15s

you are confused. the others should be buffed to be inline with the better two AND BM as a whole should prob be buffed another 10% to make it middle of the pack.

[Skeppio]

This would essentially make the shoulders useless. The big advantage of having 2 charges instead of one is not to waste resets of db. Havibg 3 does basicly nothing for dps except a tiny bit on opener or for m+ where you might get it more often to 3 stacks.

I guess so, it was just the first idea I had that didn't completely change what the legendary does. Mostly a stop-gap so they can spend more time fixing (by which I mean buffing) our other legendaries to not be complete garbage, as opposed to nerfing Mantle into worthlessness, which is far more likely their plan.

[Knifttar]

I gave up on my hunter and then I got the shoulders from emissery quest.
It is night and day and I enjoy my hunter very much now.

2 charges should be base and shoulders should make it 3 charges, allowing pooling but not making or breaking the spec.

Also, 4x19 is so good that I dont see how we replace it and we might be bound to do NH over and over for TFs even on T20

This was my EXACT experience. I had thought/said all along that I felt like the BM rotation just needed another ability to press/account for, and having a second charge does that imo.

[Dome Fossil]

I used to think the shoulders were dumb and something needed to be done, then I got them and felt like the system worked fine. But then I realized how much better they'd be with the belt, and thought the system was dumb and something needed to be done, but then I got them as well and currently feel like the system works fine.

[Deleted]

Won't be much of a difference from how it is now compared to other tri-dps classes' specs.

BM so good :l https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/11#dataset=90

LOL BM bottom of mythic 90th percentile = must do no damage and be crap ><

Nvm that the classes are all fairly close outside of the top 3

These are people playing at the very peak i.e maybe 1% of the wow playerbase

BM is the easiest spec in game (I main it I know) its not that hard to reach a bm hunters full potential.. we have no issues on movement and actually has to do mechanics unlike a lot of melee classes/some range specs

TLDR: BM is absolutely fine

- - - Updated - - -

Anyway blizzard should:

Apex: nerf reverted and put back to 10% damage and bug fix
Call of Wild: nerf reverted and add extra stat 400-600
KJ: is fine
Shoulders: fine
Belt: fine

Helm/Roots: extra stats (probably more then the 600 they gave) but nothing crazy I mean pydraz sims higher then call of wild and Ring for me (and a lot of others) while giving a ton of survivability.. these survivability legendaries need buffs but not so they are actually a dps increase over dps legendaries imo (as is the case with pydraz for a lot of classes now)

[Geran]

LOL BM bottom of mythic 90th percentile = must do no damage and be crap ><

Nvm that the classes are all fairly close outside of the top 3

These are people playing at the very peak i.e maybe 1% of the wow playerbase

Logs have to be taken with some distance, not all people have same ilvl, or same stats, or same gear (and with different classes), but they are certainly a guide to compare them, and when you have a fair quantity of them you can assume they reflect the reality (with certain deviation for errors)

BM is the easiest spec in game (I main it I know) its not that hard to reach a bm hunters full potential.. we have no issues on movement and actually has to do mechanics unlike a lot of melee classes/some range specs

TLDR: BM is absolutely fine

If harder were meant to be high potential I could (maybe) agree with you, but this is wow, there are far more easier specs which do way MORE damage.

The problem is the flaw design of the specs/classes of Legion, when you need items to make it competitive (not statwise, mechanics) or fun, then those should be baseline. They won't acknowledge it in this expansion, but in the next one.

[Deleted]

Shoulders are great - but mostly due to the insane synergy with set bonus. In t20 it will be alot worse (still good but)

If t20 set bonus would be massive buffs to kill command - boots go up by alot. If pet damage gets buffed, apex scales better with that. Etc etc.

But i can see shoulder players using t19 for a while even when t20 is out.

[Deleted]

Logs have to be taken with some distance, not all people have same ilvl, or same stats, or same gear (and with different classes), but they are certainly a guide to compare them, and when you have a fair quantity of them you can assume they reflect the reality (with certain deviation for errors)



If harder were meant to be high potential I could (maybe) agree with you, but this is wow, there are far more easier specs which do way MORE damage.

The problem is the flaw design of the specs/classes of Legion, when you need items to make it competitive (not statwise, mechanics) or fun, then those should be baseline. They won't acknowledge it in this expansion, but in the next one.

Logs can be useful but the 90th percentile from mythic raiding is not really like I said these are the best of the best 1-5% of the playerbase

If u want to look at logs for balance HC is actually far better because its what the majority of players should be able to achieve and BM is lower mid.. given the easiness of the spec that's not bad.

Is there far easier specs doing way more damage? not saying there is not which are u talking about? I like putting out good damage for the least effort possible :P

Not gonna deny there is a lot wrong with the legendary system either, but I think other stuff needs buffs rather then nerf to shoulders

[last1214]

Tier 20 2 and 4 sets both have a large interaction with bestial wrath. I fail to see how having the shoulders and being able to obtain much higher bestial wrath uptime when combined with call of the wild talent, is going to somehow even out for the players that still do not have the shoulders.

And yeah I feel like they could revert the apex predator nerf and it still wouldn't be that good of a legendary.

[Mang]

And make BM even lower on the meters? Best solution ive heard this whole year so far!

And if you have neither leg you're basically non-existent. Great solution.

[Doffen]

So, for playstyle, that 2*push Dire Beast is doing so much for you guys? I am not trolling, I am just trying how to figure out how that makes the playstyle ALOT better. Its almost like getting 2 charges of marked shot(can get that with Zhevrims) and that didnt really make the playstyle alot better :P Just more spammy. I dont mind that though.

[Slicer299]

Seems to me the mantle and belt legendaries for BM are quite a bit better than the other options. For the sake of balance do you think they should be nerfed to be a bit more in line with the rest? I just don't see why someone who is lucky enough to get both of them should have such a huge advantage over the have nots. Especially since it is a very real possibility that you may not ever get either one.

From the last Q&A regarding the mantle specifically: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/129089429?t=29m15s

The problem with Mantle is not that it's OP, it's that it fixes a basic broken design element of BM. That is we spend too much of the fight Focus starved outside those times we can cast Dire Best/Frenzy. Having two charges fixes our Focus issues and makes the spec viable. So nerfing Mantle, without actually fixing the Focus issues for BM, would make the spec unviable again in most high end situations. Even with Call of the Wild and Convergence of Fates, which combine to give me slightly better than average overall Focus regen due to casting more AotW, I still sim 65 seconds of time spent waiting for a average 5 minute fight. That's more than 20% of each fight spent waiting for Focus. That's a terrible design problem for BM.

What everyone needs to do, and this goes for all classes, is to stop complaining "It's not far that some people have certain legendaries and I don't! You should punish those people and make their legendaries suck so they can be as miserable as I am!". That literally helps no one. It's fine to talk about balance, but any talk about balance must include ways to balance the class/spec as a whole and not just be a demand to nerf legendaries that you haven't been lucky enough to get yet.

Seriously, it's like the people who complained about legendaries being OP when they were restricted to certain classes each expansion. Even then there was fighting amongst those classes, and it was as pointless then as it is now. Like Paladins complaining that because Armor Pen was no good for them that all their guilds were giving Shadowmourne to the DKs or Warriors. It's just petty jealousy that ruins the game for everyone else. If a guild won't let someone raid because they don't have a right legendary, they should find another guild because that sort of toxic nonsense shouldn't be tolerated. But when the discussion is taken to Blizzard, that discussion needs to be "Hey, you need to fix my class/spec so it's viable all on it's own and doesn't require a specific legendary to simply function the way it should in the first place.".

If they can get the balance right in the first place, and we still end up with legendaries that are clearly better than others, then so be it. That's how this game works, that's how this game has always worked. RNG will always be a factor and there will always be people who have things that you don't. If you can't handle that, find another game to play.

As to how you fix BM, easy, fix our Focus regen. Don't make the cast of Dire Beast/Frenzy grant a bigger chunk, that will just lead to some getting wasted. But increase our passive regen or lower the CD on Dire Beast/Frenzy and we'd be fine. Once that's done, they could do something like making Mantle simply lower the CD of Beast/Frenzy a little further instead of giving it 2 charges.

[Deleted]

So, for playstyle, that 2*push Dire Beast is doing so much for you guys? I am not trolling, I am just trying how to figure out how that makes the playstyle ALOT better. Its almost like getting 2 charges of marked shot(can get that with Zhevrims) and that didnt really make the playstyle alot better :P Just more spammy. I dont mind that though.

It's like I was telling my friend. On the surface it seems like a small thing, but the shoulders make a lot of synergy happen.

First, we stop wasting procs. This is big. Because we no longer waste procs we switch to One with the Pack that increases Dire Beast CD reset proc chances. Because we have OwtP we switch to more crit. Because we crit more and we have OwtP we fart Dire Beasts. Every Dire Beast reduces the Bestial Wrath CD. Now we're swimming in Bestial Wrath uptime. Because we fart Dire Beasts we have more focus with Dire Stable, and we also have no focus cost GCDs farting more Dire Beasts leaving more focus to be used during Bestial Wrath. Because we have more Dire Beasts our Titan's Thunder is also doing more damage.

Part of this is also synergy with T19. It will be hard to switch to T20 since as it is we're gloriously tapdancing and only rarely using Cobra Shot.

And all because we have one more charge of Dire Beast. It's glorious, and I re-rolled another hunter and no longer have the shoulders and I miss them, hard.

[Doffen]

Allright, so its more for synergy and not actual rotation wise the difference is noticeable then thanks for answer

We have a bm hunter in the guild who doesnt have them yet(he has 5 legs, no bm only one yet, poor guy) and he also talks about having almost zero downtime on BW with the shoulders, wich obviously is alot more fun than less!

[Sastank]

LOL BM bottom of mythic 90th percentile = must do no damage and be crap ><

Nvm that the classes are all fairly close outside of the top 3

These are people playing at the very peak i.e maybe 1% of the wow playerbase

BM is the easiest spec in game (I main it I know) its not that hard to reach a bm hunters full potential.. we have no issues on movement and actually has to do mechanics unlike a lot of melee classes/some range specs

TLDR: BM is absolutely fine

- - - Updated - - -

Anyway blizzard should:

Apex: nerf reverted and put back to 10% damage and bug fix
Call of Wild: nerf reverted and add extra stat 400-600
KJ: is fine
Shoulders: fine
Belt: fine

Helm/Roots: extra stats (probably more then the 600 they gave) but nothing crazy I mean pydraz sims higher then call of wild and Ring for me (and a lot of others) while giving a ton of survivability.. these survivability legendaries need buffs but not so they are actually a dps increase over dps legendaries imo (as is the case with pydraz for a lot of classes now)

LOL you think BM is fine that's pretty funny. I guess MM RNG being core of the spec is fine too? :thinking: what about SV bloated rotation and lack of reliable buff/debuff uptime during ANY movement? Also fine I guess.

[Nubulous]

However, if you are good without the shoulders, you are definitely better with the shoulders.

I wonder if the guy you responded to who said he got rank 1 anomaly had belt though