Lack of class diversity is why so few people want to play RDPS

[Charge me Doctor]

I doubt that this is significant enough reason to make any impact on representation of ranged DPS.

[Deleted]

The main point here is that there a too few rDPS players in the game because if you want to play a "DPS + tank/heal" hybrid, most ranged specs drop out of the equation because they are on pure DPS classes.

And on top of that, those hybrid ranged specs are still trash compared to pure DPS. In terms of balancing, the hybrid tax is still very real. Elemental remains a pile of garbage and Balance is terrible. Shadow isn't as great as it used to be as well.

Just look at this great thread by @Katsu2881: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...ce-(with-data)

[Charge me Doctor]

I always want to be able to tank with my class choice, so when I wanted to play a rDPS in WoD and be able to tank I had to play Druid. For melee/tank, I could have chosen every class except Rogue and Hunter.

Or you can create another toon. It's not a big deal you know

[saradonin]

In Legion (Nighthold especially) melee vs caster comes down to one simple question: Why even bother with spellcasting, movement planning and doing encounter mechanics, while you stay under boss' arse, tunnel him for 6 minutes and impudently brag about the numbers shortly after he's down?

[Deleted]

1. There is no shortage of RDPS
2. The shortage of Tanks and Heals has nothing to do with class diversity

Yes, most raids search for range DPS. Thats because in most raid encounters, range DPS are more flexible. You can easily do every raid encounter with ranges only, but those encounter get much, much harder when you have lots of melee. Thats why raid leaders prefer range DPS and look for range DPS. But if you look at the actual distribution, you get a very healthy mix of range and melee. Its just that 50:50 is bad for raids, and raid leads usualy prefer 30:70 or 20:80 in favor of range DPS.

The shortage of tanks and heals (lately, its often heals who have instant invite and tanks get 1-2 minutes waiting time) is due to the responsibitly of those roles and the lack of meters. Everyone can E-Peen on a DPS meter, both in raids and in dungeons, but you can not do the same as tank and heal. Yeah, you can play the HPS meter game in raids, but you are usualy busy with other stuff (besides, a heal who can react fast and save people is often times better then a druid who only hots everything and gets HPS for free).
And as tank and heal you get lots of responsibility. In dungeon, everyone expects you to know the way, to be fast, to pull properly and to know the fights. In short, a tank has to do a lot to insure a smooth run. those things are easy for veteran players, but even some people who have played the game for years as dps struggle with it. And especially new players. because tanks get flamed quickly in dungeons - people want to get a dungeon done quickly, they don#t want to allow a new tank to learn.
As heal, you are at the mercy of the tank and DPS. IIf the tank pulls shitty, if he DPS add stuff and stand in teh fire, you have to react. You have to compensate their fails. It is expected of you. And some people treat you like shit because you should have enough HPS to heal them even if they play like absolute apes and constantly stand in void zones. And you can't do anything about it. you either heal and and hope you get enough oomph, or you get flamed. And telling a DPS not to stand in stuff mostly results in nothing constructive. Again, its a daunting role even for some veterans, and more so for new players.

Then there is gearing up. Try tanking a heroic dungeons with ilvl 815. Its an absolute nightmare. You can use the finder, but you will struggle with keeping aggro. And since heals are no longer used to have to heal the tank that much, you will have problems with dying. If you also get a weak heal, you are in for a tough ride.
Its similar as heal. If you are freshly dinged 815, but people play like they got an 880+ heal, you are in for a tough ride. But as DPS, you quque with 815 and except for having low DPS (which is completely irrelevant, since you get matched with 880+ people), there is absolutely no problem what so ever. Even if you doN#t know the dungeon, just follow the tank. If you doN#t know the fights, no rpoblem, the heal will save you. So the entry barier to DPS is very, very low, but much higher for tanks and heals. Thats why a lot of people stick with DPSing.

Some people delibrerately play classes with only DPS speccs so that they can not be asked to switch to a role they don#t like, so its quite healthy to have some pure melee (rogue) and pure rdps classes.

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Or you can create another toon. It's not a big deal you know

Not everyone likes making multiple toons.

[l33t]

Wrong, because 95+% of players don't care about performance enough for it to be the determining factor in their class choice. Not even in mythic raids.

Wrong, my reply absolutely was not about performance, try reading next time. Also, lold @ your made up statistics. 95+%, yeah, sure.

[Evangeliste]

And on top of that, those hybrid ranged specs are still trash compared to pure DPS. In terms of balancing, the hybrid tax is still very real. Elemental remains a pile of garbage and Balance is terrible. Shadow isn't as great as it used to be as well.

Just look at this great thread by @Katsu2881: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...ce-(with-data)

I wouldn't say that's 100% accurate though I have to say ranged has been lacking to a degree but not completely out of the picture. As for hybrid classes I recall Paladins and Warriors being really good for Emerald Nightmare which are both hybrid classes, though actual data could prove otherwise since this is only one raid and well, the other two raids were out in September and October behind a lot of changes then too. Also well Monks have been simply awful and don't have a ranged spec per say [since Monks are like Holy Paladins where they can go range or melee for healing] which throws that out.

It is quite clearly a mess though, because well it doesn't seem clear what the agenda is for things. Also they probably are designing things without knowing their true impact like the trinket from Withered J'im which throws the cat amongst the pigeons because a class also can only be as good as it's loot that's available let's be honest.

[Vaelorian]

So wait you said that since WOTLK cleave specs have been favoured? So is that why everyone and their grandma took RANGED dps over MELEE dps on every raid as they were so melee unfriendly.

The only reason why ranged is lacking is due to the fact that people just don't like to play ranged/casters as much. Where are the times when warlocks were plenty? Where are the times mages were big business? Nowadays if you have 1 mage ánd a lock you are rocking your chair with excitement! You will have a lot of hunters though. Probably because they are very high on the meters all the time.

Maybe mages and locks got the worst deal in the pruning? Maybe people nowadays find them boring? Maybe they cannot provide excellent dps as much as they were used to? Maybe because we have SO MANY CLASSES/ROLES nowadays that people have trouble sticking with the class they formerly played and want a change of pace?

[Charge me Doctor]

So wait you said that since WOTLK cleave specs have been favoured? So is that why everyone and their grandma took RANGED dps over MELEE dps on every raid as they were so melee unfriendly.

The only reason why ranged is lacking is due to the fact that people just don't like to play ranged/casters as much. Where are the times when warlocks were plenty? Where are the times mages were big business? Nowadays if you have 1 mage ánd a lock you are rocking your chair with excitement! You will have a lot of hunters though. Probably because they are very high on the meters all the time.

Maybe mages and locks got the worst deal in the pruning? Maybe people nowadays find them boring? Maybe they cannot provide excellent dps as much as they were used to? Maybe because we have SO MANY CLASSES/ROLES nowadays that people have trouble sticking with the class they formerly played and want a change of pace?

Well i don't know which delusional world you live in but mages are master class no one can surpass, their only drawback is not being able to tank, melee DPS or heal. This limitation exist for sole purpose of attracting players to other classes, so we won't end up with 100% mage pop

[Lysiander]

There isn't a tank or healer shortage. There never has been. There is a disinterest in tanks and healers to queue random stuff.

I have played tanks and healers for all of WoW on various classes because I enjoy them (tanks more than healers). I have played all tanks except warrior. All healers except shaman. And in every random group I have ever been in, a single mistake was enough to get yelled at, often by DPS with several mistakes and low-ass performance under their belt. When I make a mistake as a tank, people either die or we lose time. When a DPS makes a mistake, there's two others to smooth it out. I don't enjoy being yelled at. So when I queue up random (instead of playing with guild/friends), I either put on my thick skin or I play DPS.

That is why you see few tanks queuing. That is why you see few healers queuing. It has nothing do with lack of special snowflake classes and everything with people's behavior.

When I play DPS, I just queue up for the dungeon because that's enough. I can learn the dungeon on the fly.
When I play healer I read the boss abilities, because I have to be able to anticipate major damage intake. This takes time.
When I play tank I research the trash mobs because a stunned tank is a dead tank. A dead tank gets yelled at. Or causes the healer to get yelled at, which means that my lack of preparation ruined someone else's day.

In my personal experience, tanks and healers tend to be team players. DPS players have a 50/50 chance to be team players. I like playing with team players so I pick and chose.

As for the idea of a ranged tank, that's called kiting. Considering how much DPS players yell at me for moving the boss, I doubt the concept would be very successful in actual use.

[WowIsDead64]

RDPS classes has playstyle, I would call "uncomfortable". May be that's, why many players don't like them. Melee specs are balanced around taking damage, while ranged are designed around avoiding damage. Not all players have enough skill to manage such playstyle. Bad outdoor content design - is contributor either. Outdoor content is way too "overloaded". And while it isn't problem for such classes, as Paladin and DK - it's big problem for such classes, as Mage and Priest.

[Deleted]

I wouldn't say that's 100% accurate though I have to say ranged has been lacking to a degree but not completely out of the picture. As for hybrid classes I recall Paladins and Warriors being really good for Emerald Nightmare which are both hybrid classes, though actual data could prove otherwise since this is only one raid and well, the other two raids were out in September and October behind a lot of changes then too. Also well Monks have been simply awful and don't have a ranged spec per say [since Monks are like Holy Paladins where they can go range or melee for healing] which throws that out.

I must have missed the memo that changed Warriors and Paladins to RDPS. We were clearly discussing the ranged hybrids here. For melee this doesn't apply since Havoc, Fury and Ret are performing quite well. Enhancement is doing decent as well. But that's not the premise of this thread.

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Maybe mages and locks got the worst deal in the pruning? Maybe people nowadays find them boring? Maybe they cannot provide excellent dps as much as they were used to? Maybe because we have SO MANY CLASSES/ROLES nowadays that people have trouble sticking with the class they formerly played and want a change of pace?

I have played a Mage since Vanilla. For me, the reason I stepped away from them is because they have become stale. It has nothing to do with DPS, but everything with how not really all that much has changed the past few years. You can only keep on playing a certain class for so long before it essentially becomes a predictable and boring experience.

[mickybrighteyes]

You're still not getting his point that unless you go melee there is no tanking to be done.

The supporitng argument didn't really seem to help them. WArlocks for example were a ranged class with multiple tank builds that didn't require losing their ranged skills. Apotheosis, granted by the glyph of demon hunting, DID convert the warlock to melee though.

But tanking enemies that are almost 100% immune to crowd control makes retaining range a pain and anyone that has played melee understands that movement bosses are a huge pain unless there are almost NO other effects/mechanics to watch out for.

Now... as for 'still not getting' the point... that is an statement for ongoing discussion rather than a single exchange that has yet to be expanded upon. I will concede that there are no established ranged tank builds, but I feel that is a limitation of the current game mechanics rather than class design and would only be warrented in groups nearly devoid of melee to dance around the hitbox of a target trying to constantly engage it's primary target in melee.

[Deleted]

RDPS classes has playstyle, I would call "uncomfortable". May be that's, why many players don't like them. Melee specs are balanced around taking damage, while ranged are designed around avoiding damage. Not all players have enough skill to manage such playstyle. Bad outdoor content design - is contributor either. Outdoor content is way too "overloaded". And while it isn't problem for such classes, as Paladin and DK - it's big problem for such classes, as Mage and Priest.

This is my opinion as well. Melee is a lot more comfortable to play, especially outside of raids for a large variety of things (WQ, achievements, old raids). Considering they are in a good spot in Legion so far, this contributes to the shift from Ranged to Melee. Previously people stuck with their Ranged specs more because they were more desired in a raiding context. This paradigm has shifted in Legion, there's no clear advantage to stacking 70% ranged and 30% melee in your DPS comp (overall).

[Maslenka]

The basic issue is that playing melee DPS gives you *much* more flexibility to off spec as a different role.

I don't think this is an issue. Have seen many many DKs, Warriors, Pallys etc complaining on how long party matching queues are and how impossible is to get into a group as DPS - yet refuse (or being not competent) to play tank.

Reasons why I *switched* from RDPS (ele/resto shaman) to pure dps (sin rogue) are:
- RDPS badly lacks mobility
- it takes "too long" to kill low HP outdoor mobs (WQs) - even with high item levels and even compared with sin rogue; because you actually have to cast spell

Used to love ele shaman back in times when it could cast LB on move. Those times are, however, long gone.

[jaakkeli]

for once melee is better, thats why everyone plays melee not because the tanks can also change to melee dps

I'd be happy to switch from protection to ranged DPS on my pally though if such a spec actually existed. I've never understood why anyone wants to play melee DPS and keep running after some tank when you can just play that tank yourself and not be a slave to someone else's playstyle. Ranged DPS is less annoying to play because whatever the tank is doing doesn't matter much but I've never been able to understand why people want to play melee as a non-tank.

I think we'd see somewhat more ranged DPS and tanks if there were more classes with the option of ranged DPS and tank but right now you're limited to druid and the whole shapeshifting your transmog away is a huge turn off.

[Rogalicus]

Can you possibly imagine a tanking spec for Warlock?
NO.

http://wow.gamepedia.com/Dark_Apotheosis

[Deleted]

The supporitng argument didn't really seem to help them. WArlocks for example were a ranged class with multiple tank builds that didn't require losing their ranged skills. Apotheosis, granted by the glyph of demon hunting, DID convert the warlock to melee though.

But tanking enemies that are almost 100% immune to crowd control makes retaining range a pain and anyone that has played melee understands that movement bosses are a huge pain unless there are almost NO other effects/mechanics to watch out for.

Now... as for 'still not getting' the point... that is an statement for ongoing discussion rather than a single exchange that has yet to be expanded upon. I will concede that there are no established ranged tank builds, but I feel that is a limitation of the current game mechanics rather than class design and would only be warrented in groups nearly devoid of melee to dance around the hitbox of a target trying to constantly engage it's primary target in melee.

I didn't mean to sound aggressive and I'm sorry if my post came out as such.
I was just saying that the point of his post is actually exactly what you described in the second half of your post. Moving bosses are just a pain in the ass. There's only so much you can do in terms of designing a moving boss.
The result would probably be something similar to gw2 or ESO bosses where you end up kiting most of the time. Not a bad idea either mind you, I enjoyed some of that but I understand it can be tiring.

[omeomorfismo]

I've been seeing this talked about a bit. To me, there is one main reason RDPS is less played than melee and it also plays into why there is a shortage of tanks and healers in group finder as well.

Melee have 12 specs to choose from spread over 9 classes. Of those, only 4 specs are on a pure DPS class (3 rogue specs plus Survival hunter). That means 75% of melee specs and ~80% of melee DPS classes can either tank, heal, or both in addition to doing DPS. If you want to melee dps and tank, you can play Druid, Death Knight, Monk, Paladin, Warrior, or Demon Hunter. If you want to do Melee DPS and heal, you can play Druid, Paladin, Shaman, or Monk.

Range have 11 specs spread over just 6 classes. Of those, 3 of the classes, making up 8 of the 11 specs, are pure DPS classes. Hunters (2 specs), Mages (3 specs), and Warlock (3 specs) can *only* DPS. This means 72% of RDPS specs and 50% of RDPS classes have absolutely no role diversity. If you want to RDPS and tank you have to play a Druid. If you want to RDPS and heal, you are a Shaman, Priest, or Druid.

The basic issue is that playing melee DPS gives you *much* more flexibility to off spec as a different role. If Blizz really wants to help address the imbalance of melee vs range and the shortage of tanks and healers when forming groups, they need to address the extreme lack of RDPS specs with tank or heal off specs. This goes beyond just adding a new class next expac that can RDPS, heal, and tank. We really need more of the current classes with RDPS specs to gain the ability to heal and/or tank.

so, after all these hypothesis, why hunter and mage are the most played classes?

[Banard]

I've been seeing this talked about a bit. To me, there is one main reason RDPS is less played than melee and it also plays into why there is a shortage of tanks and healers in group finder as well.

Melee have 12 specs to choose from spread over 9 classes. Of those, only 4 specs are on a pure DPS class (3 rogue specs plus Survival hunter). That means 75% of melee specs and ~80% of melee DPS classes can either tank, heal, or both in addition to doing DPS. If you want to melee dps and tank, you can play Druid, Death Knight, Monk, Paladin, Warrior, or Demon Hunter. If you want to do Melee DPS and heal, you can play Druid, Paladin, Shaman, or Monk.

Range have 11 specs spread over just 6 classes. Of those, 3 of the classes, making up 8 of the 11 specs, are pure DPS classes. Hunters (2 specs), Mages (3 specs), and Warlock (3 specs) can *only* DPS. This means 72% of RDPS specs and 50% of RDPS classes have absolutely no role diversity. If you want to RDPS and tank you have to play a Druid. If you want to RDPS and heal, you are a Shaman, Priest, or Druid.

The basic issue is that playing melee DPS gives you *much* more flexibility to off spec as a different role. If Blizz really wants to help address the imbalance of melee vs range and the shortage of tanks and healers when forming groups, they need to address the extreme lack of RDPS specs with tank or heal off specs. This goes beyond just adding a new class next expac that can RDPS, heal, and tank. We really need more of the current classes with RDPS specs to gain the ability to heal and/or tank.

or you know add more range classes...since vanilla we got:

(1) death knight
(2) monk
(3) demon hunter
(4) fucking surv hunter....

there is the reason this is called meleecraft.